The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

[Ecumenicist]

Maybe, just maybe.

God is like the ultimate chess master. He can see the results of
every possible decision and consequences which unfold from each
choice and possibility.

This would be truley omniscient, not merely knowing a finite future,
but knowing all possible decisions and therefore all possible futures.

djm

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by Knight

I have already demonstrated rather clearly how perfect exhaustive foreknowledge closes the future AND directs actions (actions can only occur if they are contained within the perfect foreknowledge and therefore that foreknowledge directs and limits actions that are contained therein). Maybe you could go back and answer a couple of the questions I asked of you in previous posts so that you could show me otherwise?

You continue....First off.... God knows everything knowable and that He chooses to know.

Secondly....... God IS all powerful! So powerful that He has power over His own power. In other words.... God has control over His own power.

Do you believe that?

In your opinion does God have control over His own power?

Sorry, I've been gone for a few days. Yes, God does have power over his own powers, but don't you think it's possible for God to look at the future and then make himself forget it? And please don't use the argument of, "Why would God do that?" I don't know and you really don't either. No one can, because God is above all of us. Maybe he can look into the future (Revelations, etc.) and then only remember parts of the future.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by jjjg

He probably read your responses and figured that you guys were so brainwashed by Bob that it was pointless to argue further.

So... basically you have no point so you have decided to just be a rude jerk?

Is that what you are trying to do?

We aren't twisting your arm trying to get you to stay and participate here at TOL you know. Feel free to find another web forum if you like.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Sorry, I've been gone for a few days.

No problem.... I wasn't trying to rush you I just wanted to keep the thread active.

You continue...

Yes, God does have power over his own powers, but don't you think it's possible for God to look at the future and then make himself forget it?

I suppose that would have been possible had God wanted to do that. But had that been the case you would have only compounded your theological problem of freewill and exhaustive foreknowledge being compatible. With your new theory... God removes freewill with foreknowledge and then also removes His exhaustive foreknowledge through His intentional forgetfulness. How does this help your case?

OK... so... anyway... I am glad we agree that God has power over His own power.

That being that case couldn't God use His power in any way He desires?

Couldn't God choose to create beings with a true freewill? Couldn't He create us without also creating our futures in His mind (i.e., foreknowledge) ?

You continue....

And please don't use the argument of, "Why would God do that?" I don't know and you really don't either. No one can, because God is above all of us. Maybe he can look into the future (Revelations, etc.) and then only remember parts of the future.

Again... this new solution of yours does not help your argument but instead compounds it with a new "problem".

Earlier on this thread you stated....

I think his foreknowledge IS perfect. God is perfect, therefore his foreknowlege has to be.

Do you still hold to this assertion or are you trading it in for the "intentional forgetfulness" theory?

Let me know so I can continue on with you in the appropriate course.

 

[Ninjashadow]

I suppose that would have been possible had God wanted to do that. But had that been the case you would have only compounded your theological problem of freewill and exhaustive foreknowledge being compatible. With your new theory... God removes freewill with foreknowledge and then also removes His exhaustive foreknowledge through His intentional forgetfulness. How does this help your case?

I kind of figured that out after I posted it. I heard the theory from a philosophy teacher and he was trying to disprove the existance of God. It seemed to me that if God couldn't know the entire future then he would be limited. I cannot believe that God is limited. I still feel like open view limits him.

Couldn't God choose to create beings with a true freewill? Couldn't He create us without also creating our futures in His mind (i.e., foreknowledge) ?

Yes, but if he is all powerful couldn't he also have an exhaustive knowledge of the future and give people true free will? If he cannot do that then that limits him.

 

[1Way]

Dave Miller
You said

This would be truley omniscient, not merely knowing a finite future,
but knowing all possible decisions and therefore all possible futures.

That's a provocative concept. But I'm not sure I agree with it.

What if a clever being (who is not God) came along and made the following claim.

"I know all possibilities, I know how everything in the future might happen!!!"

Hahahaaa, chuckles, (...pause...), eh hemmm, smile, glancing left and right, straight faced.

Would such a claim really lend the idea of being the God of the bible? I have my doubts. Anyone could make that claim and none except God could know for sure if it was true or not. But the idea is thought provoking.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

I kind of figured that out after I posted it. I heard the theory from a philosophy teacher and he was trying to disprove the existance of God. It seemed to me that if God couldn't know the entire future then he would be limited. I cannot believe that God is limited. I still feel like open view limits him.



Yes, but if he is all powerful couldn't he also have an exhaustive knowledge of the future and give people true free will? If he cannot do that then that limits him.

Truth be told ALL theories limit God in some way or another.

Think about it....

Let's say you assert..... "God has no limits". You have just placed a limit on God. You have in essence limited Him to having no limits. He is longer a God that has the ability to limit Himself or is limited by the constraints of realty etc.

Furthermore...
God has attributes that limit Him correct? God is always righteous. Therefore He is limited to being righteous and He is never unrighteous.

You see......

Sometimes, we have these phrases and sayings regarding God that we take way too far and stretch them to create a image of an irrational God that is not portrayed in the Bible.

Lets take slow baby steps in this discussion OK?

Can you acknowledge that God can have limits and still be God?

 

[1Way]

ninjashadow,
I find your discussion with Knight interesting.

I trust Knight's approach very much, and I don't want to detract from your discussion, but on the other hand, I already made this post and I think it might prove helpful. So I'll post it and I ask you to stick with Knight and simply consider my post if you have time to do so. I hope you find this helpful.

You said

Yes, but if he is all powerful couldn't he also have an exhaustive knowledge of the future and give people true free will? If he cannot do that then that limits him.

Two things.
1
No limits on God
First, does God's very character and ways limit God? Is God good and righteous and loving and just and holy? If so, then can God violate or contradict what He is? No, that is silly, yet at the same time, and thankfully God is faithful, we have good reason to trust our Lord and Savior because we know He cannot lie, He can not cease to be God as He is everlasting, and so on. So your idea that God must not have limits is frankly not particularly conforming to what God actually is.

I believe that God is unchanging in His character and ways...

Secondly, if God always has all knowledge of everything that will ever happen, then we have several problems to deal with.

2a
Exhaustive foreknowledge and man's free will
First is according to your question, can't man have free will and God have exhaustive foreknowledge. I suppose that depends on how you define free will. According to my view, free will entails the idea that man has true authentic options to choose from. The future might unfold in numerous authentic different ways because everyone might do different things because what they will do is truly to some extent "uncertain".

But, if all of time has absolutely no uncertainty, everything that will ever happen has "no choice" but to happen as it is locked into happening, then there truly are: no options, no uncertainty, no real choices, just one unalterable destiny, thus by my definition of free will, there is no free will if there is no uncertainty.

2b
Exhaustive foreknowledge and divine repentance
The second problem is that God does not lie, right? But in His word, God rationally explains and demonstrates that He sometimes relents/repents by not doing what He said and/or thought He was going to do. Whether you agree with that concept or not, that is what God's word says God does. So at least from my perspective, rational divine repentance is a bible truth that contradicts the view that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, ,,, because if God knows everything that will ever happen, then of course He would never truthfully change His mind and not do what He thought He was going to do, instead, He would always do what He always knew He was going to do.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:1Way: :up:

 

[Balder]

Knight,

I can see why.

Have you ever considered that closed view theism was in error?

Yes, but honestly I'm not entirely clear about the beliefs of Open Theism. Based only on my limited familiarity with it, I'd say it seems to escape some of the problems of closed theism, but it also seems to "reduce" God in some ways and make him more like created beings -- better than the rest, but still somehow less transcendent and mysterious.

I agree with your statement in a later letter: basically anything you say about God will end up limiting Him in some way...revealing the limitations of human thought and language, if nothing else.

Peace,
Balder

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Sorry, I've been gone for a few days. Yes, God does have power over his own powers, but don't you think it's possible for God to look at the future and then make himself forget it? And please don't use the argument of, "Why would God do that?" I don't know and you really don't either. No one can, because God is above all of us. Maybe he can look into the future (Revelations, etc.) and then only remember parts of the future.

1] How could God lok into something that does not exist?
2] God does not need to look into the future to know what is going to happen in order to speak of future events. God did not look into the future to know what was going to happen when the events described in Revelation come to pass. He did not merely show John what was going to happen. He showed John what He was going to do. The events described in Revelation are things that God is going to either do, or let happen. He is going to bring them about. That is how He knows what is going to happen.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Yes, but if he is all powerful couldn't he also have an exhaustive knowledge of the future and give people true free will? If he cannot do that then that limits him.

If God exhaustively knows the future can we do anything other than what God knows? Is that free will?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

If God exhaustively knows the future can we do anything other than what God knows? Is that free will?

I still believe that it is. I guess the way that I look at it would be like time travel (no, I'm not saying that God time travels. I have no doubt that He can if he chooses). I go into the future, let's say 62 yrs to right after Skip's death, and find out all there is to know about him, then travel back to my time, I haven't influenced Skip's choices in any way, I merely know what he

chose

to do. He still made all the choices, still did everything that I found out he did after he died, but even if I am back in my time, before his birth, I did not cause him to make any particular choice. He chose what he chose.
I guess what this argument boils down to is: is there a future already or are we making it up as we go along?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Can you acknowledge that God can have limits and still be God?

I think that I already did when I agreed that God has power over his powers. It only makes sense that if God has power over his powers that he could limit Himself. However, those limits would be self imposed.





(By the way, thanks for the congenial discussion, I've been at boards before where they just rip on you if you have different ideas, even if you don't really fully believe one way and are just trying to figure things out)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Balder
Yes, but honestly I'm not entirely clear about the beliefs of Open Theism. Based only on my limited familiarity with it, I'd say it seems to escape some of the problems of closed theism, but it also seems to "reduce" God in some ways and make him more like created beings -- better than the rest, but still somehow less transcendent and mysterious.

Consider this....

What depiction of God is more powerful and amazing....

A. A God who through ordination or through foreknowledge determines the entire future in advance in every detail and then plays it out like a really long VCR tape. Ultimately He is the only actor in the play since all other beings are directly manipulated by Him.

B. A God who sovereignly chooses to take a risk by giving up some of His power to His creation in the form of leaving their future open to their freewill. He then works within that openness weaving His truth and plan to His satisfaction in the midst of billions and billions of freewill agents.

 

[jjjg]

So you are saying you are a deist, Knight?

God wound up the universe like a clock and let it run itself?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

I think that I already did when I agreed that God has power over his powers. It only makes sense that if God has power over his powers that he could limit Himself. However, those limits would be self imposed.

OK great. :up:

Now that you have agreed that God has power over His own power and that God has the ability to limit Himself can you agree that IF God chose to create us with an open future, could He have? I am not asking you to concede that He did and that I am right, I am only asking if you think it is a possibility that God COULD have created in this manner had He chose to.

What I am driving at is I would like to determine why you think the future is closed. In other words... I am trying to determine if you think the future is closed due to a overriding logical principle about God's attributes that requires a closed future OR if you just feel God created us with a closed future based on other evidence but could have created differently had He chose to.


You continue....

(By the way, thanks for the congenial discussion, I've been at boards before where they just rip on you if you have different ideas, even if you don't really fully believe one way and are just trying to figure things out)

This is my favorite subject in the entire world!

I love discussing it.

I appreciate your tone as well. I promise to stay cordial as long as you promise to stay cordial and responsive.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by jjjg

So you are saying you are a deist, Knight?

God wound up the universe like a clock and let it run itself?

You are an idiot, go away.

If you want to have a serious discussion let me know. Until then, I am not going to respond to you.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by Knight

B. A God who sovereignly chooses to take a risk by giving up some of His power to His creation in the form of leaving their future open to their freewill. He then works within that openness weaving His truth and plan to His satisfaction in the midst of billions and billions of freewill agents.

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Mr. 5020

Amazing, isn't it?

I like to use the word.... "majestic". :cloud9: