The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience
- Thread starter Ninjashadow
- Start date
I have already demonstrated rather clearly how perfect exhaustive foreknowledge closes the future AND directs actions (actions can only occur if they are contained within the perfect foreknowledge and therefore that foreknowledge directs and limits actions that are contained therein). Maybe you could go back and answer a couple of the questions I asked of you in previous posts so that you could show me otherwise?
You continue....
First off.... God knows everything knowable and that He chooses to know.
Secondly....... God IS all powerful! So powerful that He has power over His own power. In other words.... God has control over His own power.
Do you believe that?
In your opinion does God have control over His own power?
Dinkledorks?????
Should I bother to respond to someone who calls me a Dinkledork?
Oh what the heck the answer is so easy I may as well clear it up for you. How can God predict future events without exhaustively knowing the future?
Simple! God can bring events to pass!
Genesis 41:32 “And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
Psalms 37:5 Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon — That He may do His work, His awesome work, And bring to pass His act, His unusual act.
Isaiah 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
There are certain things God wishes to accomplish, some things without fail and other things are contingent upon our obedience or disobedience to Him. If God desires.... He can bring events to pass. Now THAT is power! A God that can work His plan with the best possible outcome yet be dealing with freewill agents!
He couldn't predict the future and say something is going to happen without knowing the future. He couldn't bring things to pass in the future without knowing the future. I rest my case.
God is not within time. He is eternal. So he is not affected by the passage of time and you are assuming God thinks as we do. We know existence as done existence so there is unknown events in the future.
Since God creates existence for us he would know our existence by doing it. Everything is known to him as he can move around our temporal existence turning every free will decision of ours to goodness.
Free will and God knowing the future is not hard to understand.
You may set out a plate full of wood chips and a plate of good food. A person might have free will to choose between the two, but it is no surprise which he/she will go for.
Maybe you should stop listening to Bob as the almighty last word of God.
God is not within time. He is eternal. So he is not affected by the passage of time and you are assuming God thinks as we do. We know existence as done existence so there is unknown events in the future.
Since God creates existence for us he would know our existence by doing it. Everything is known to him as he can move around our temporal existence turning every free will decision of ours to goodness.
Free will and God knowing the future is not hard to understand.
You may set out a plate full of wood chips and a plate of good food. A person might have free will to choose between the two, but it is no surprise which he/she will go for.
Maybe you should stop listening to Bob as the almighty last word of God.
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1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
jjjg,
Welcome to TOL! Wow, 1500 posts. Not a newbee then.
After Knight's biblically reasoned response, you said
The bible demonstrates how it is that God takes care of things yet future. And I rightly caution anyone to not overstep or undermine what scripture clearly teaches. It does not say nor support the idea that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, instead it says in the plainest terms that God takes care of yet future things because He is able to complete what He says He will do. Here's another look, and this time, please directly relate to this scripture.
And God changing His mind about what He was going to do contradicts the closed view, which holds that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, nothing is open to change away from that knowledge, all things are closed to options and contingency, the entire future is locked in place and must happen according to one unalterable version. Such a view is contradictory to scripture, yet strangely enough it's somewhat popular in Christian tradition.
Welcome to TOL! Wow, 1500 posts. Not a newbee then.
After Knight's biblically reasoned response, you said
You rested nor clarified nothing. As an open theist, I also believe what you just said. God does have future knowledge, the bible makes that perfectly clear, and that is hardly a point of contention against the open view. Rather, the issue is over what kind and how much fore knowledge God has.
The bible demonstrates how it is that God takes care of things yet future. And I rightly caution anyone to not overstep or undermine what scripture clearly teaches. It does not say nor support the idea that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, instead it says in the plainest terms that God takes care of yet future things because He is able to complete what He says He will do. Here's another look, and this time, please directly relate to this scripture.
So if we can trust God's word on the matter, Knight is right, God plans certain yet future events and if they are not contingent upon man, then He will bring them to pass because they rely on God's faithfulness. But if the thing yet future rests upon a contingency (usually with mankind), then God may relent and even contradict what He had said and/or thought He was going to do. (Jer 18:1-10 the original Potter and the Clay, and Jonah 3:4,10 denying that God has exhaustive foreknowledge)
And God changing His mind about what He was going to do contradicts the closed view, which holds that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, nothing is open to change away from that knowledge, all things are closed to options and contingency, the entire future is locked in place and must happen according to one unalterable version. Such a view is contradictory to scripture, yet strangely enough it's somewhat popular in Christian tradition.
1Way, you must go beyond strictly fundamentalist interpretation of scripture.
There is natural theology that allows us to say something about the absolute. As I said it is better to understand it that God crafts all the free will decisions of ours into his own design.
The scripture that alludes to god changing his mind can be understood that God gave us a choice; "such and such is going to happen if you don't change"
God knew that we would learn a lesson and knew that we would change accordingly so God allowed some event to pass.
I am not saying that we have complete understanding of free will and predestination but scripture alludes to both.
There is natural theology that allows us to say something about the absolute. As I said it is better to understand it that God crafts all the free will decisions of ours into his own design.
The scripture that alludes to god changing his mind can be understood that God gave us a choice; "such and such is going to happen if you don't change"
God knew that we would learn a lesson and knew that we would change accordingly so God allowed some event to pass.
I am not saying that we have complete understanding of free will and predestination but scripture alludes to both.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#tho
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
These sites should help.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
These sites should help.
Balder
New member
ninjashadow,
this is a question i usually ask when these sorts of discussions come up: even if God's foreknowledge of human decisions does not necessarily constrain those decisions or diminish the free will aspect of them, what sort of God would knowingly create people he foreknows will end up in eternal conscious torment?
this is a question i usually ask when these sorts of discussions come up: even if God's foreknowledge of human decisions does not necessarily constrain those decisions or diminish the free will aspect of them, what sort of God would knowingly create people he foreknows will end up in eternal conscious torment?
If we have a choice, then God does not know what we will choose.
Indeed your "case" needs rest.
You continue...
Gee great example!
Wasn't it you who called me a "Dinkledork"?I think the real Dinkledork has exposed himself. Nice job! :up:
I agree Balder.
Can I ask...
Did the theology of a closed future where man is nothing more than a puppet in God's hand effect your decision to turn away from Christianity?
You rest your case, already? You'd suck as a lawyer.
God exists within duration, correct? Can God change the past? No. Why? Because it's over. It's gone. It is no longer existant. God can remember it, but He can't do anything about it. As for the future, God knows what He will do. That doesn't mean that He knows everything that will ever happen.
So God uses our decisions to work good? I don't disagree. This has no bearing on Open Theism.
It doesn't work. If God knows what will happen, we can not do anything other than what God knows. That's not free will.
Are you comparing God and seperation from God to this?
People have a choice between God and seperation from God. And some people choose seperation. And this grieves God. God wold prfer that we choose Him, which is why He gives us the choice. But, if He knew what people would choose, why would He give us the choice? Using your example, why would I give someone a choice between food and wood chips, if I knew they were going to choose the food? It doesn't make sense.
You're lucky Knight didn't ban you for that. Accusing him of believing his pastor is above God is libelous, and uncalled for. And Bob Enyart is not the person who came up with Open Theism, either.
Maybe you should join some of the other threads on the OV, and you would learn some more.:doh:
Balder
New member
Knight,
None of the churches I attended ever taught that man was just a puppet, but I guess you could say that various thorny theological problems surrounding the notions of omniscience and eternal conscious torment did play a part in my estrangement from the tradition.
Best wishes,
B.
None of the churches I attended ever taught that man was just a puppet, but I guess you could say that various thorny theological problems surrounding the notions of omniscience and eternal conscious torment did play a part in my estrangement from the tradition.
Best wishes,
B.
I can see why.
Have you ever considered that closed view theism was in error?
:chuckle:
Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience
If we are free we must be able to do or to do otherwise.
If God knows for certain what we will do then the ability to do otherwise does not exist and so neither does our freedom.
God knows all that is knowable and that He wants to know. The common understanding of omniscience cannot be defended Biblically.
Resting in Him,
Clete
If we are free we must be able to do or to do otherwise.
If God knows for certain what we will do then the ability to do otherwise does not exist and so neither does our freedom.
God knows all that is knowable and that He wants to know. The common understanding of omniscience cannot be defended Biblically.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I think he realizes that was in error. Sadly he still can't reconcile why God wouldn't save everyone from ECT.Originally posted by Knight
I can see why.
Have you ever considered that closed view theism was in error?
ninjashadow?
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
jjjg
Q1
What is this naturalistic theology that you refer to, and who is it's author, or who is in authority over it?
Q2
Do you also have your own personal spiritual guide, like a spirit that specifically gives you special spiritual insight?
Q3
Are you suggesting that God's word as we know it from the scriptures is not complete and sufficient for matters of faith and the Christian life?
Q4
If an extra biblical teaching or concept violates or contradicts scripture, then do we reject it for being against God's word, or do we accept it as long as we claim that it is naturalistic theology?
You said.
That is gross contradictory imaginary foolishness. Are you a fiction writer by any chance? Maybe a playwright? No?
Q5
What would you say if I told you that it is among the most grievous sins to go against or violate or serve to void a teaching from scripture?
Q6
Also, if it would work in your schedule, and if someone offered you to work for 100 dollars per hour, would you do it?
The stipulations are as follows. You would work full time 40 hours per week, 8 hours per day, for 3months straight, and you would not have to do anything that you did not want to do. It would be normal work stuff that you already are good at doing. But the job would end after that time. You would be paid 4 bucks an hour weekly, and the rest you would get at the end of the 3 month term.
Q1
What is this naturalistic theology that you refer to, and who is it's author, or who is in authority over it?
Q2
Do you also have your own personal spiritual guide, like a spirit that specifically gives you special spiritual insight?
Q3
Are you suggesting that God's word as we know it from the scriptures is not complete and sufficient for matters of faith and the Christian life?
Q4
If an extra biblical teaching or concept violates or contradicts scripture, then do we reject it for being against God's word, or do we accept it as long as we claim that it is naturalistic theology?
You said.
First, the scriptures that I have in mind make no allusion that God changes His mind, that is the exact message, no allusion involved. So according to your version of overturning what scripture plainly says, if God says that He did not do what He said He would do, or what He thought He was going to do, then that actually means that He did not change His course of action, but man changed instead. ... :freak:
That is gross contradictory imaginary foolishness. Are you a fiction writer by any chance? Maybe a playwright? No?
Q5
What would you say if I told you that it is among the most grievous sins to go against or violate or serve to void a teaching from scripture?
Q6
Also, if it would work in your schedule, and if someone offered you to work for 100 dollars per hour, would you do it?
The stipulations are as follows. You would work full time 40 hours per week, 8 hours per day, for 3months straight, and you would not have to do anything that you did not want to do. It would be normal work stuff that you already are good at doing. But the job would end after that time. You would be paid 4 bucks an hour weekly, and the rest you would get at the end of the 3 month term.