The Sabbath is a What?
- Thread starter Jefferson
- Start date
Choleric
New member
:rotfl: Is that a joke? Here, I will post it again. Please show me where I go wrong in my interpretation:
Paul knew our salvation did not, in any way depend on keeping the commandments. That included all ten on the tablets of stone:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The subject is clearly "tables of stone". Surely you agree that is the ten commandments.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Pauls now compares the new testament which he is a minister of to the "letter that killeth". Clearly the subject is still in regard to the "tables of stone". If you doubt that, look at the next verse.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Again, he uses the term "engraven in stones" referring clearly to the ten commandments. He then says those ten commandments that were written in stone were the "ministration of death". That is indisputable.
Moses face shown because of that glory from those engraven stones. Those are now "done away"
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Paul compares the new testament (the ministration of the spirit) and says it is more glorious.
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Paul again calls the ten commandments the "ministration of condemnation"
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
We are again told that the ten commandments, the thing engraven in stone, is done away.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Moses put a vail over his face. His face shown because of the glory of the thing engraven on stone which is now "abolished".
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Paul then compares the veil over moses' face to the veil over the heart of those that don't beleive the ten commandments "engraven in stone" is now "done away in Christ"
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Paul then tells us the veil shall be taken away if they turn to the Lord.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Paul said it as plainly as it can be said. The ten commandments were:
1- engraven in stone (2 Cor 3:7) and tables of stone (2 Cor 3:3)
2- they were the "letter that killeth" (2 Cor 3:6)
3- they are "done away" (2 Cor 3:7)
4- they are the "ministration of death engraven in stone" (2 Cor 3:7)
5- they are the "ministration of condemnation" (2 Cor 3:9)
6- they are "that which is done away" (2 Cor 3:11)
7- they are "that which is abolished" (2 Cor 3:13)
8- and yet for those attempting to be saved by them, "the veil is upon their heart" (2 Cor 3:15)
I would love to see how you misintepret the above passage. I have made it pretty easy for you to understand. I understand there is a veil upon your heart and you want to hold onto the law instead of rest in Christ. But the law is done away, abolished. Good luck!
genuineoriginal
New member
So, now you can bow down to idols?
It always goes back to the same thing.
Either you affirm that Christians should keep the Ten Commandments because they are righteous, or you have no grounds for condemning any wickedness.
You have the entire scriptures as witness for how God's wrath comes on the children of disobedience, and choose to ignore it and do the same things they did to earn His wrath.
You claim that the ten commandments have been destroyed, and make Jesus a liar.
Matthew 5:17 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. |
Why do you teach people to break the commandments?
Matthew 5:19 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. |
Choleric
New member
one way to understand this is to look up the term ministration, it being the priesthood both the written and etched in stone commandments were ministered under 2Co 3:7, who's glory was passing away (with the new priesthood).
this is concurred with Hebrews 7:12.
The New Covenant has new Spirit promised priest John 15:26 , since the old ministration was passing, one according to Paul even more glorious than the previous 2Co 3:9
Paul describes the previous priesthood of his time as bringing death and condemnation with the law 2Co 3:7, 9,
(same as Jesus said) Matthew 23:13 but the priesthood of Jesus and his Apostles (Paul included) as being a ministry of righteousness and greater glory, 2Co 3:9 (concurred with the other Apostles Acts 11:18).
keep shinin
jerm
Got your neg rep Germ. Just wanted to again point out the Scriptures you continually ignore:
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones
The "ministration" is clearly and undoubtedly written and engraven in stones. Any other interpretation is "private".
Believe Paul, or call him a heretic. Your eternity hangs in the balance.
Choleric
New member
Yes, it goes back to your inability to believe the bible. Paul dealt with the same issue you present here and I have posted his response to that already, but I will do it again:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Those who are not saved, are still being judges by it. Those saved will be judged as sons, and not with the world.
And that has not changed. Except, if you are saved, you are chastened as a son, not with the world.
Jesus did come and fulfill it. When I got saved, I was "imputed" with the perfect life He lived for me. Now I am dead to the law.
In regard to how one attains salvation, 2 Cor 3 clearly shows the law, engraven in stones, has passed away. Either believe it, or take a magic marker to your bible and delete that chapter from it. You apparently know better than Paul did. Hey, maybe you can join the rest of the heretics who claim Paul was a heretic and just eliminate all the books he wrote from your bible?
See this post again to reaffirm the fact that the ten commandments, which were engraven in stone are done away.
jeremysdemo
New member
so you still don't know what the word ministration means?
that's cool, I can live with that, knowing you were given the information. :wave:
keep shinin
jerm
Choleric
New member
so you still don't know what the word ministration means?
that's cool, I can live with that, knowing you were given the information. :wave:
keep shinin
jerm
I showed you from the bible that whatever it is it was engraved in stone.
I don't care if you reject it, I can live with it knowing you were showed the truth from the bible.
jeremysdemo
New member
blah blah blah, :darwinsm:
the only truth you have shown to everyone on TOL is how deep and wide your chasm of ignorance of the terms in the Bible is. :hammer:
we get it! no need to explain further.....
let it be noted that this was said long before my "eternity hung in the balance"
one fine day C, you will be knocked off that high horse, might be sooner than you think. Luke 14:11 :thumb:
keep shinin
jerm
the only truth you have shown to everyone on TOL is how deep and wide your chasm of ignorance of the terms in the Bible is. :hammer:
we get it! no need to explain further.....
let it be noted that this was said long before my "eternity hung in the balance"
jeremysdemo said:
one fine day C, you will be knocked off that high horse, might be sooner than you think. Luke 14:11 :thumb:
keep shinin
jerm
Choleric
New member
blah blah blah, :darwinsm:
the only truth you have shown to everyone on TOL is how deep and wide your chasm of ignorance of the terms in the Bible is. :hammer:
we get it! no need to explain further.....
let it be noted that this was said long before my "eternity hung in the balance"
Yeah, I heard it: "per se"
It either is or isn't. There is no end run around the facts.
one fine day C, you will be knocked off that high horse, might be sooner than you think. Luke 14:11 :thumb:
keep shinin
jerm
OK.
jeremysdemo
New member
well I would give you a link to the definition of per se, so you can better understand the meaning of my sentence.....
but we all have seen you turn your back on definitions and force your own interpretation out of ignorance onto passages....
other than totally re-wording the statement it would be pointless.
even then, you could probably find some way for it to mean something else if that is your desire (to falsely accuse)......
so I'm just going to leave it as is for the benefit of the sheep.
keep shinin
jerm
jeremysdemo
New member
here is throwing caution and redundancy to the wind and hoping for the best:
:granite:
keep shinin
jerm
:granite:
keep shinin
jerm
genuineoriginal
New member
You know what the words are, but don't have a clue what they mean.
That is from the Old Covenant, which you claim was destroyed by Jesus.
Deuteronomy 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the Lord thy God chasteneth thee. |
Your interpretation is the wresting of Paul's words that leads to destruction.
2 Peter 3:16 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. |
What does Paul actually mean?
Acts 26:15-20 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. |
Those works suitable for repentance are the same ones you call "dead works".
Last edited:
genuineoriginal
New member
1 Timothy 1:8-10 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; |
Paul used a lot of words to say the same thing as Aristophanes said here with few words:
Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life.
~ Aristophanes
~ Aristophanes
Doormat
New member
:up:
Paul also said the same in Romans:
Romans 2:14,15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts ...
Choleric
New member
Yes and if they continue in keeping that law, they will be saved. But As Paul builds his case he gets to Rom 3:23 "all have sinned and come short of the glory". And we are also told "if you keep the law yet offend at one point you are guilty of all".
Paul's goal is to prove all under sin. Those under the law are guilty of breaking it and those without it are guilty of breaking the law of their mind. They know lying is wrong and yet they do it anyway, breaking the law of their mind. Therefore they are guilty.
genuineoriginal
New member
jeremysdemo
New member
with the abrogation for those of faith there is no more "under the law" there still is a law tho
otherwise you are lawless Romans 6:19, which Paul preached against and said was another gospel.
that being said the law is not made for righteous men, (those whom keep Gods law) 1 Timothy1:9 but for the breakers.
it has no power over the righteous (with Christ), neither can they be put under it, either in written or stone form, they are free from the law of sin and death Romans 8:2, since they do not violate it Romans 6:13.
the ones that are disobedient are still slaves of sin Romans 6:19, still under the law having not heard or rejected the gospel.
keep shinin
jerm
otherwise you are lawless Romans 6:19, which Paul preached against and said was another gospel.
that being said the law is not made for righteous men, (those whom keep Gods law) 1 Timothy1:9 but for the breakers.
it has no power over the righteous (with Christ), neither can they be put under it, either in written or stone form, they are free from the law of sin and death Romans 8:2, since they do not violate it Romans 6:13.
the ones that are disobedient are still slaves of sin Romans 6:19, still under the law having not heard or rejected the gospel.
keep shinin
jerm
Choleric
New member
Just like Abraham.
What do you mean?
genuineoriginal
New member
Genesis 15:6 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. |
Genesis 26:5 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. |
Choleric
New member
So God imputed him with righteousness because he believed or because he obeyed? One is ten chapters later.
What happened "because Abraham obeyed"?