The Sabbath is a What?

[Doormat]

1) is keeping the law "our righteousness" as Deut 6 shows?

No. That is the old covenant (contract) that was abrogated (Deut 31:26, Col 2:14).

Please understand that "the book of the law" and the "tablets of stone" were kept separate; one was kept outside the Ark, the other was kept inside the Ark. Moses wrote the book of the law on a medium that could be "blotted out," but God wrote the Decalogue with his finger in stone so that it could never be blotted out. The Decalogue stands in testimony against law breakers, and it always will. It shows people who can't live by the golden rule what they are doing wrong (1Ti 1:9-10; Ro 7:7).

Any violation of the ten commandments violates the golden rule (Mt 7:12). Paul taught the golden rule (Ro 13:9). Christians live by the golden rule (Luke 10:28). Living by the golden is a light burden (Mt 11:30).

If you believe the seventh-day is still sanctified, then treat the fourth commandment like you do the command against murder. Don't force people to work for you on the day that God gave them a day of rest? Is that really a hard thing to do? I think not.

2) did Paul say he didn't want to be found in his personal righteousness?

Yes. His point was that righteous through the law--trying to earn salvation through law keeping--is no righteousness at all.

 

[Doormat]

How does one who knows the commandments of God sin unintentionally?

And how can one who is not under the Law sin inadvertently?

In the context of unintentional sins, they can't. Those ordinances I showed you were abrogated. But the ten commandments were not abrogated. Violations of the ten are always intentional sins. The ten are still in effect against lawbreakers. Those lawbreakers are under the law, which is why they are dead instead of raised to life in Christ.

The Hebrew word for "sin unintentionally" means to sin without knowing you have done so; to be ignorant that you have sinned.

And I also quoted Leviticus 15:30 which required a sin offering and atonement with God for a bodily function. That's as unintentional as it gets, right?

Do you honestly think Paul was speaking of sins committed in ignorance in Romans 7?

Of course I do. I explained it to you, and showed you that he was writing about unintentional sins. Read it again and make an argument against it, if you have one.

Don't you get that Paul was living at a time when Christians were surrounded by Jews who kept those ordinances for unintentional sins? The subject needed to be addressed, as Paul did in Romans 7 and also in Colossians 2:14.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Please understand that "the book of the law" and the "tablets of stone" were kept separate; one was kept outside the Ark, the other was kept inside the Ark. Moses wrote the book of the law on a medium that could be "blotted out," but God wrote the Decalogue with his finger in stone so that it could never be blotted out. The Decalogue stands in testimony against law breakers, and it always will. It shows people who can't live by the golden rule what they are doing wrong (1Ti 1:9-10; Ro 7:7).

Any violation of the ten commandments violates the golden rule (Mt 7:12). Paul taught the golden rule (Ro 13:9). Christians live by the golden rule (Luke 10:28). Living by the golden is a light burden (Mt 11:30).

Where were these commandments written, on the tablet of stone or in the book of the law?

Matthew 22:37-39 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

 

[Doormat]

Where were these commandments written, on the tablet of stone or in the book of the law?

On the tablets of stone. Logically, you cannot be breaking those if you keep the ten. I'm just saying the same thing as Romans 13:9.

 

[genuineoriginal]

On the tablets of stone. Logically, you cannot be breaking those if you keep the ten. I'm just saying the same thing as Romans 13:9.

Paul appears to be saying that you won't be breaking the ten if you keep the two.
That is different from what you are stating.

 

[Doormat]

Paul appears to be saying that you won't be breaking the ten if you keep the two.
That is different from what you are stating.

No. I'm saying the same thing.

 

[genuineoriginal]

On the tablets of stone. Logically, you cannot be breaking those if you keep the ten. I'm just saying the same thing as Romans 13:9.

Paul appears to be saying that you won't be breaking the ten if you keep the two.
That is different from what you are stating.

No. I'm saying the same thing.

You appear to be claiming that if a person keeps no more than the ten commandments written in stone, then that person has satisfied all the requirements to keep the two greatest commandments written in the book of the law.
(L₁-L₁₀) = (B₁-B₂)

Jesus and Paul appear to be claiming that if a person satisfies all the requirements to keep the two greatest commandments written in the book of the law, then that person will have also satisfied the requirements needed to keep the ten commandments written in stone, as well as all the law and the prophets and the unwritten ones as well.
(B₁-B₂) > (L₁-L₁₀)
(B₁-B₂) = (L₁-L₁₀)+(B₁-B_n)+(P₁-P_n)+(U₁-U_n)

 

[Doormat]

You appear to be claiming that if a person keeps no more than the ten commandments written in stone, then that person has satisfied all the requirements to keep the two greatest commandments written in the book of the law.

Rather, I claim that one who lives by the golden rule fulfils the entire law.

(L₁-L₁₀) = (B₁-B₂)

That equation is true, but does not mean what you said above.

Jesus and Paul appear to be claiming that if a person satisfies all the requirements to keep the two greatest commandments written in the book of the law, then that person will have also satisfied the requirements needed to keep the ten commandments written in stone, as well as all the law and the prophets and the unwritten ones as well.

Here is what Jesus said: Matthew 7:12.
Here is what John said: 1 John 4:20.
Here is what Paul said: Romans 13:9.

(B₁-B₂) > (L₁-L₁₀)
(B₁-B₂) = (L₁-L₁₀)+(B₁-B_n)+(P₁-P_n)+(U₁-U_n)

Both of those equations appear false to me.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Rather, I claim that one who lives by the golden fulfils the entire law.



That equation is true, but does not mean what you said above.



Here is what Jesus said: Matthew 7:12.
Here is what John said: 1 John 4:20.
Here is what Paul said: Romans 13:9.



Both of those equations appear false to me.

Here is what Jesus said about the two great commandments:

Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

Notice that they are the foundation for all the law (written in stone and written in the book of the law) and the prophets (the rest of the old testament)

Please look at how much more is in the book of the law, the prophets, and are unwritten than was in the ten commandments:

This is written in stone:

Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.​

This is written in the book of the law:

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

This is written in the prophets:

Proverbs 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.​

This was unwritten.

Matthew 5:27 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

This was also unwritten.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,​

That is why I said that the two great commandments include every commandment written in stone, every commandment written in the book of the law, every commandment written in the prophets, and all the unwritten commandments as well.
The Golden Rule appears to be the second of the two great commandments.

 

[Doormat]

Notice that they are the foundation for all the law (written in stone and written in the book of the law) and the prophets (the rest of the old testament)

Yes, I understand and believe that, which is why I pointed to Matthew 7:12. The golden rule fulfils the law and the prophets. Consider this ...

G₁ = B₁ = B₂ = L₁...L₁₀

The prophets taught the equation.

Please look at how much more is in the book of the law, the prophets, and are unwritten than was in the ten commandments:

We don't know exactly what was included in the Book of the Law. Was it just Leviticus or did it include other books? We do know that what was written in that book was abrogated (Col 2:14).

This is written in stone:

Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.​

This is written in the book of the law:

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

Exodus 20:14 is still in effect, and the penalty is eternal death. Leviticus 20:10 regarding a temporal death penalty has been abrogated. See David's pardon and Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Those who would execute adulterers under the new covenant should read the parable of the unforgiven servant.

This is written in the prophets:

Proverbs 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.​

I have not said the book of Proverbs has been abrogated.

This was unwritten.

Matthew 5:27 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

You are mistaken. It was written:

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

This was also unwritten.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,​

But it is written, and in numerous places.

Proverbs 11:21 Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished, But the descendants of the righteous will be delivered.

That is why I said that the two great commandments include every commandment written in stone, every commandment written in the book of the law, every commandment written in the prophets, and all the unwritten commandments as well.

I see it a bit differently.

The Golden Rule appears to be the second of the two great commandments.

It's not possible to love God without loving your neighbor (1Jn 4:20).

B₁ = B₂

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[jeremysdemo]

We don't know exactly what was included in the Book of the Law. Was it just Leviticus or did it include other books? We do know that what was written in that book was abrogated (Col 2:14).

I'd like to second this motion before the esteemed board.

case in point, a reference made by Jesus to their "law" saying ye are Gods, John 10:34.

Of course we know that is not in any law from the Bible, occurs in a Psalm 82:6 tho.

All Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud differences aside.

might be a reference to a Davidic oral tradition of the law that is long since lost. :think:

or better yet, the Psalm could be drawing from an even older oral tradition handed down by Aaron and since lost......but not entirely since it survived in Davids songs.

keep shinin

jerm ncnc

 

[Doormat]

case in point, a reference made by Jesus to their "law" saying ye are Gods, John 10:34.

Interesting point. I've always wondered about that. My impression has been he was referring perhaps to a tradition of viewing Psalms as law, and he was magnifying the authority of the scripture according to their own belief. Although, I have not studied to know how the sects of that day viewed the authority of Psalms in their canon, i.e. whether they thought of it as law or not.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Interesting point. I've always wondered about that. My impression has been he was referring perhaps to a tradition of viewing Psalms as law, and he was magnifying the authority of the scripture according to their own belief. Although, I have not studied to know how the sects of that day viewed the authority of Psalms in their canon, i.e. whether they thought of it as law or not.

well for practical purposes every sec or regional authority had schools of oral law which produced commentary or "marginal notes" as they were called prior to written midrashic and organized Mishnah.

There are examples of this necessity in Karaite and other scripturalist whom rejected regional oral tradition and rabbinic Mishnah, so as a result read passages figuratively that rely on such traditions for information to be carried out physically, eg. Tefillin, Mezuzot.

So the reference could very well be a reference to a commentary side note of the law being sighted by Jesus, just as people sight Roe vs Wade today in court, a precedence that most people were familiar with.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

Have you actually looked at your arguments to see what they lead to?

Your argument is this:

Keeping the commandments is dead works.

I have never said we should not live holy lives. I have simply said that attempting to be saved by keeping the law is dead works. Working to be saved is a dead working that will never save

You must repent of dead works in order to be saved.

You must repent of dead works which is attempting to save yourself through obedience and improving your own righteousness.

Therefore you must repent of keeping the commandments in order to be saved.

I am sure you see now why you are mistaken. Paul dealt with these same questions:

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. -Romans 6:15

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. -Galatians 5:13

As Christians we should live holy lives, but our hope for salvation is in God, not in our ability to be good enough for God to look favorably upon us and save us. That is how we can know we are saved right now, because our "hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness". Our hope is not in our goodness but it is in Gods promise.

There is a better chance of the sun not rising in the morning than there is of me not going to heaven when I die. I can say that because I have the righteousness Paul talked about. It is not mine, but Christ's.

Christ was born in a manger, and lived a perfect life fulfilling all the law. He then died, was buried and raised to newness of life. He is now seated at the right hand of the Father.

When I was saved, I was baptized into Christ (1 Cor 12:13) and I am now a part of his body. I am imputed with His righteousness. It is as if I lived the life Christ did and He took on my sin.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. -2 Corinthians 5:21

Christs life on earth is complete. There is no way I can improve upon it and my failures cannot mar that righteousness. It was given to me as a gift and I accepted it by faith.

Just as Christ is seated at the right hand or the Father, I am seated at the right hand of the father. Just as death hath no more dominion over Christ, death has no more dominion over me.

Since I already died with Christ and raised anew, the law has no more dominion over me. When I sin, though God will chasten me, i am no longer judged with the world but as a son. The law is what convicts. Since I am dead to the law, it has no power to convict me.

I am in Christ and I am a new creature. I have passed from death to life as Christ did. I am sealed to the day of redemption and I Christ will never cast me out.

 

[Choleric]

Yes. His point was that righteous through the law--trying to earn salvation through law keeping--is no righteousness at all.

So what righteousness did Paul want?

How would one go about getting that righteousness?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do you know the difference between the Old Covenant and the Old Testament? It doesn't look like it.

The passages you posted were on the relationship of works toward God relating to future salvation under the agreement of the old covenant.

In the context of unintentional sins, they can't. Those ordinances I showed you were abrogated. But the ten commandments were not abrogated. Violations of the ten are always intentional sins. The ten are still in effect against lawbreakers. Those lawbreakers are under the law, which is why they are dead instead of raised to life in Christ.

So Paul never stated that the Sabbath meant nothing to those of us in the dispensation of the grace of God/Body of Christ?

And I also quoted Leviticus 15:30 which required a sin offering and atonement with God for a bodily function. That's as unintentional as it gets, right?

Does a period still make a woman unclean?

And it's not that unintentional when there is something they can do to prevent it.

Of course I do. I explained it to you, and showed you that he was writing about unintentional sins. Read it again and make an argument against it, if you have one.

You failed to show that to be the case. I need not make an argument against it when you have failed to make a solid argument for it.

Can you tell me what you think Paul's views on intentional sins was?

Don't you get that Paul was living at a time when Christians were surrounded by Jews who kept those ordinances for unintentional sins? The subject needed to be addressed, as Paul did in Romans 7 and also in Colossians 2:14.

Yes, I know about the Jews who kept the Law at the time of Paul. Not only those who rejected Jesus, but His followers who were also Jews and kept the law, as well.

Paul addressed how we should relate to them and that we should follow certain laws in their presence for their sake in order not to lead them to sin according to their dispensation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The passages you posted were on the relationship of works toward God relating to future salvation under the agreement of the old covenant.

I posted God's own statements about how He deals with righteous, wickedness, and repentance.

What does the scripture say about it?

Ezekiel 18:21-24,26-28 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.​

These are general principles that apply under the old covanant (which required animal sacrifice as a propitiation for sin) and under the new covenant (which requires the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation for sin).

Murder is still wicked under both covenants, charitable giving to the poor is still righteous under both covenants.

The nature of wickedness and righteousness did not change with the new covenant, but the method and effectiveness of the propitiation for sin has changed.

 

[Doormat]

So what righteousness did Paul want?

The righteousness of God without the law.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

How would one go about getting that righteousness?

Simon tried to buy it. That didn't work. (Still not sure how you concluded he was saved when he tried to buy the eternal life he did not yet have.)

Assuming you understand the righteousness of God equates to eternal life, here is Jesus answering your question:

Luke 10:25-28

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live

Paul affirms that in Romans 13:8-10:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And ...

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not [love], I am nothing.

 

[Choleric]

The righteousness of God without the law.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Finish the thought:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

It is a righteousness without the law. It is by faith. We are justified freely by his grace. It is because we cannot earn it, or keep the law enough to deserve it that boasting is excluded. It is also imputed, not imparted:

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: -Romans 4:11

The righteousness we need is given, not earned.

Simon tried to buy it. That didn't work. (Still not sure how you concluded he was saved when he tried to buy the eternal life he did not yet have.)

Simon didn't try to buy salvation. He tried to buy the ability to give people what Peter gave them. He wanted that power.

Assuming you understand the righteousness of God equates to eternal life, here is Jesus answering your question:

Luke 10:25-28

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live

This was under the law. Jesus came under the law, and fulfilled the law. That is not how you get saved in the age of grace. You have the righteousness of Christ imputed to you. It is not my righteousness, as Paul attests, it is somebody elses. Being that it is somebody elses, I cannot earn it, I can only receive it.

Paul affirms that in Romans 13:8-10:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And ...

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not [love], I am nothing.

The verses you posted do not say we get the righteousness of God by keeping the law. That would be our righteousness. There is my righteousness, your righteousness, there is the righteousness of Billy Graham, there is the righteousness of adolf hitler and there is God's righteousness. We all have our rightousness and God has his. He will give you His as a gift if you will repent of your dead works attempt at salvation.

Paul affirms the exact opposite. The works of the law is no longer how a man is saved. The phrase "without works" is all over the new testament. Not good works, not works of the law. It is without the law at all in any way. It is by repentance toward God and faith in Christ. It is being born again, in an instant, and having the righteousness of God imputed to you by faith without works.

 

[Doormat]

It is a righteousness without the law.

Do you understand what Paul meant by "without the law" was not antinomianism?

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

It is by faith.

Not in the sense that antinomianism holds. Consider again what Paul wrote:

1Co 13:2 ... though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not [love], I am nothing.

If one doesn't love God, one is not saved. If one doesn't love his brother, one doesn't love God. If one transgresses the ten commandments, one doesn't love his brother.

Do you understand that love is evidence of believing the gospel, and that hate is evidence of not believing the gospel?

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

It is because we cannot earn it, or keep the law enough to deserve it that boasting is excluded.

I've never claimed that anyone earns salvation, let alone that they earn it through law keeping. I was very clear about this to you, that no person is justified by the deeds of the law.

The righteousness we need is given, not earned.

When it is received, there is evidence. Someone who continues to murder shows evidence the righteousness of God was not received (1Jn 3:15).

Simon didn't try to buy salvation. He tried to buy the ability to give people what Peter gave them. He wanted that power.

You haven't shown how Acts 8:20-23 fits your doctrine. It's obvious that Simon was not saved from those verses. Carefully consider the wording of Peter's statement to him.

... this do, and thou shalt live

This was under the law.

If you set aside the words of Jesus like that, I see little hope for you.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.