The Sabbath is a What?

[genuineoriginal]

It is not works of righteousness or works of the law that save.

Works of unrighteousness and works of unlawfulness are the works that damn an unrepentant soul to destruction.

This has not changed.

In the new covenant, God has given all judgment over who will enter the kingdom and receive eternal life to Jesus.
The sacrifices in God's written law are no longer used to cover our sins. They were abolished because of the abuse of the sacrificial system and the acceptance of a more perfect sacrifice.
God's standards of behavior from the written law (do not murder, do not steal) were a shadow of the new covenant law that is written in our hearts.
Jesus judges our suitability to enter the kingdom of God through the new covenant law that is written in our hearts. Instead of do not commit adultery, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even lust over another man's wife. Instead of do not murder, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even hate another.
In the new covenant law that is written in our hearts, the two greatest commandments are love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[Doormat]

What was Simon to repent from?

Try answering the question.

He was to repent of his sin.

Correct. Yet he was told to repent from sin after the scripture states this about him:

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Explain the story of Simon in light of what you believe about repentance for salvation and not keeping commandments.

 

[Choleric]

Correct. Yet he was told to repent from sin after the scripture states this about him:

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Explain the story of Simon in light of what you believe about repentance for salvation and not keeping commandments.

You are sure one to demand explanations while refusing to give any in light of what you believe. I have explained in detail what the bible teaches, using the bible. I will answer your questions and when you are done reading it, I would like you to address the following:

God says "repentance from dead works" and "repentance toward God" is to be preached. Lets let the bible tell us what those works are: Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; The works you are to repent of (in regard to salvation) are works of the law and good works (works of righteousness). To further display this fact lets look at personal righteousness: 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Moses said that keeping the commandment of God was "Our righteousness". Those are the commandments of God that you think are part of your salvation. Now look at what Paul said about that righteousness obtained by keeping God's commandments:Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: And how do you get the righteousness that Paul desired above his own righteousness? Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; It is imputed by faith. Abraham believed God and that was all. He doubted and went into Hagar and offered God his works and God said "cast out the bondwoman". God didn't cast out Abraham when he sinned. God doesn't want or need your works. The righteousness you need cannot be earned it must be given to you by imputation. That comes as a gift by faith. It is Christ's righteousness in fulfilling the law for us. We are baptized into Him and we receive the gift of His righteousness without any work on our part. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, God did it this way so the "promise would be sure". If it depended on your faith, your works, your righteousness, your keeping God's commandments, it would not be sure. It is sure because it rest solely on God's faithfulness in doing what He promised. God imputes the righteousness of Christ to those who believe. It is not my righteousness or yours, it is Christs. God gives us that through imputation, free by faith alone without works. Our sins are covered in the Blood of the Lamb, the only way to cover our sin debt. 2 Tim 1:12 for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. God is able to keep those of us who repent of dead works and place our faith in His promise to save those who come to God by His Son. Not by works of the law, not by good works, those are all dead works and in light of Gods righteousness, they are "filthy rags". When we trust Him, we are Born again, passed from death to life, sealed unto the day of redemption, If what you say is true, and we have to do this or that to be/stay saved, then why did Paul say what he said? Why do you want to be judged based on your working while Paul did not? What is the righteousness that is imputed to us?

In regard to Simon, he was a saved person who sinned. All Christians will come under chastisement from God for sinning. God will chasten us as sons (Heb 12:6-8). If we confess God will forgive us (1 Jn 1:9, James 5:14-15) and sometimes God will chasten a Christian to the point of death (1 Jn 5:16-17, 1 Cor 11:30-32).

Simon was judged by Peter to be in bondage to bitterness and was in need of repentance. Peter told Simon to pray that God would forgive him. Simon showed initial signs of repentance by recognizing his error and asking Peter to also pray for him. Like all Christians who sin in the bible, we are told to repent and ask God to forgive us. None of this has anything to do with salvation as we see with regard to those chastened of the Lord in 1 Cor 11, where they were "chastened as sons" and where the man caught in incest in 1 Cor 5 was still to be saved even after being killed by the devil.

I look forward to your explanation to my post as well.

 

[Choleric]

Works of unrighteousness and works of unlawfulness are the works that damn an unrepentant soul to destruction.

This has not changed.

Never said they weren't. The question is what to do about it?

In the new covenant, God has given all judgment over who will enter the kingdom and receive eternal life to Jesus.
The sacrifices in God's written law are no longer used to cover our sins. They were abolished because of the abuse of the sacrificial system and the acceptance of a more perfect sacrifice.
God's standards of behavior from the written law (do not murder, do not steal) were a shadow of the new covenant law that is written in our hearts.
Jesus judges our suitability to enter the kingdom of God through the new covenant law that is written in our hearts. Instead of do not commit adultery, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even lust over another man's wife. Instead of do not murder, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even hate another.
In the new covenant law that is written in our hearts, the two greatest commandments are love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves.

In a conversation it generally helps if you would actually respond to what I post instead of ignoring it and starting another conversation. Please answer this post to you which shows you some things. If you don't believe my take is correct, please explain how I am wrong:

God says "repentance from dead works" and "repentance toward God" is to be preached. Lets let the bible tell us what those works are: Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; The works you are to repent of (in regard to salvation) are works of the law and good works (works of righteousness). To further display this fact lets look at personal righteousness: 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Moses said that keeping the commandment of God was "Our righteousness". Those are the commandments of God that you think are part of your salvation. Now look at what Paul said about that righteousness obtained by keeping God's commandments:Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: And how do you get the righteousness that Paul desired above his own righteousness? Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; It is imputed by faith. Abraham believed God and that was all. He doubted and went into Hagar and offered God his works and God said "cast out the bondwoman". God didn't cast out Abraham when he sinned. God doesn't want or need your works. The righteousness you need cannot be earned it must be given to you by imputation. That comes as a gift by faith. It is Christ's righteousness in fulfilling the law for us. We are baptized into Him and we receive the gift of His righteousness without any work on our part. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, God did it this way so the "promise would be sure". If it depended on your faith, your works, your righteousness, your keeping God's commandments, it would not be sure. It is sure because it rest solely on God's faithfulness in doing what He promised. God imputes the righteousness of Christ to those who believe. It is not my righteousness or yours, it is Christs. God gives us that through imputation, free by faith alone without works. Our sins are covered in the Blood of the Lamb, the only way to cover our sin debt. 2 Tim 1:12 for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. God is able to keep those of us who repent of dead works and place our faith in His promise to save those who come to God by His Son. Not by works of the law, not by good works, those are all dead works and in light of Gods righteousness, they are "filthy rags". When we trust Him, we are Born again, passed from death to life, sealed unto the day of redemption, If what you say is true, and we have to do this or that to be/stay saved, then why did Paul say what he said? Why do you want to be judged based on your working while Paul did not? What is the righteousness that is imputed to us?

 

[genuineoriginal]

In a conversation it generally helps if you would actually respond to what I post instead of ignoring it and starting another conversation. Please answer this post to you which shows you some things. If you don't believe my take is correct, please explain how I am wrong:

That is what I did here:

In the new covenant, God has given all judgment over who will enter the kingdom and receive eternal life to Jesus.
The sacrifices in God's written law are no longer used to cover our sins. They were abolished because of the abuse of the sacrificial system and the acceptance of a more perfect sacrifice.
God's standards of behavior from the written law (do not murder, do not steal) were a shadow of the new covenant law that is written in our hearts.
Jesus judges our suitability to enter the kingdom of God through the new covenant law that is written in our hearts. Instead of do not commit adultery, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even lust over another man's wife. Instead of do not murder, the law that is written in our hearts says do not even hate another.
In the new covenant law that is written in our hearts, the two greatest commandments are love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves.

Your mistake comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the new covenant.

If what you say is true, and we have to do this or that to be/stay saved, then why did Paul say what he said? Why do you want to be judged based on your working while Paul did not? What is the righteousness that is imputed to us?

The problem is not what Paul said, the problem is that you don't understand what Paul said because you are not looking at his writings from his perspective.

Paul was raised as a Pharisee, and was taught that righteousness came from following the law and traditions of the Pharisees without any need to have a relationship with God. Paul was having to deal with the Jews that were taught that God's commandments were so strict that they had to build a fence around the law in order to keep from accidentally transgressing a commandment.

After his conversion, Paul understood that we needed to gain God's favor (grace) to be saved, and no amount of law or traditions could subsitute for having a relationship with Him.

Paul used the examples of the men in the Bible that had obtained God's favor through their relationships with Him. Abraham was looked upon by God with favor because he demonstrated his love and respect for God through his obedience to God's commands. When God looked into Abraham's heart, He saw that Abraham did not do works that he thought would gain him a reward from God, instead God saw that Abraham did works because of his love and respect for God. This is the kind of faith that God counts as righteousness (imputed).

Paul said that the kind of faith shown by Abraham's actions is the kind that God likes and counts as righteousness, but the keeping of traditions to gain a reward without having a relationship with God would not gain God's favor.

The other side of the discussion, which you seem to keep refusing to look at, is what happens if we fall out of God's favor because of unrighteousness.

Having gained God's favor through belief in His Son and repentance from the dead works of sin, can we stay in God's favor if we then choose to turn away from Him and return to the wickedness that Jesus brought us out of? God forbid.

God is longsuffering, and will maintain His favor for a while during times that we are unfaithful and sin against Him, because He is faithful.

But, if we continue doing the things that the children of disobedience did to earn God's wrath, then a time will come where God will not look upon us with favor any more.

Even though we are written in the book of life when we gain God's favor, we will be blotted out from the book of life if we lose God's favor. We will only gain the eternal life promised to us if our names are found written in the book of life at the end of our time on earth.

 

[Choleric]

That is what I did here:

Your mistake comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the new covenant.



The problem is not what Paul said, the problem is that you don't understand what Paul said because you are not looking at his writings from his perspective.

Paul was raised as a Pharisee, and was taught that righteousness came from following the law and traditions of the Pharisees without any need to have a relationship with God. Paul was having to deal with the Jews that were taught that God's commandments were so strict that they had to build a fence around the law in order to keep from accidentally transgressing a commandment.

After his conversion, Paul understood that we needed to gain God's favor (grace) to be saved, and no amount of law or traditions could subsitute for having a relationship with Him.

Paul used the examples of the men in the Bible that had obtained God's favor through their relationships with Him. Abraham was looked upon by God with favor because he demonstrated his love and respect for God through his obedience to God's commands. When God looked into Abraham's heart, He saw that Abraham did not do works that he thought would gain him a reward from God, instead God saw that Abraham did works because of his love and respect for God. This is the kind of faith that God counts as righteousness (imputed).

Paul said that the kind of faith shown by Abraham's actions is the kind that God likes and counts as righteousness, but the keeping of traditions to gain a reward without having a relationship with God would not gain God's favor.

The other side of the discussion, which you seem to keep refusing to look at, is what happens if we fall out of God's favor because of unrighteousness.

Having gained God's favor through belief in His Son and repentance from the dead works of sin, can we stay in God's favor if we then choose to turn away from Him and return to the wickedness that Jesus brought us out of? God forbid.

God is longsuffering, and will maintain His favor for a while during times that we are unfaithful and sin against Him, because He is faithful.

But, if we continue doing the things that the children of disobedience did to earn God's wrath, then a time will come where God will not look upon us with favor any more.

Even though we are written in the book of life when we gain God's favor, we will be blotted out from the book of life if we lose God's favor. We will only gain the eternal life promised to us if our names are found written in the book of life at the end of our time on earth.

I had three questions in yellow. You did not answer them.

Try yes or no:

1) is keeping the law "our righteousness" as Deut 6 shows?
2) did Paul say he didn't want to be found in his personal righteousness?

 

[Lighthouse]

What does the scripture say about it?

Ezekiel 18:21-24,26-28 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.​

Oh, right, let's look to the Old Covenant to discuss our present salvation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I had three questions in yellow. You did not answer them.

I did answer them. Apparantly you didn't read my answer.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Oh, right, let's look to the Old Covenant to discuss our present salvation.

Do you know the difference between the Old Covenant and the Old Testament? It doesn't look like it.

 

[Choleric]

I did answer them. Apparantly you didn't read my answer.

I'm slow. Help me out:

Is keeping the law "our righteousness?

Did Paul say he didn't want to be found in his own righteousness.

After you answer yes to both of those:

What righteousness did Paul want?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I'm slow. Help me out:

That is the first step.

Is keeping the law "our righteousness?

Why did God give the law?

Deuteronomy 4:5-7 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?​

Is the law the righteousness of the children of Israel in the same way that it is the wisdom and the understanding of the children of Israel?

If the law is the righteousness of the children of Israel, does God give the children of Israel the land for their righteousness?

Deuteronomy 9:4-6 4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the Lord thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the Lord hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord doth drive them out from before thee. 5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.​

What is God's response to wickedness?

 

[jeremysdemo]

Oh, right, let's look to the Old Covenant to discuss our present salvation.

Do you know the difference between the Old Covenant and the Old Testament? It doesn't look like it.

That's what Jesus did, considering 99% of what he taught was directly from scripture (The Blessed' withstanding) and the Apostles who quoted them in their writings.

a better question would be, why would you not want to do as they did? and understand the references they were making to older text fully?

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

That is the first step.

. And yet you refuse to answer.

Please answer the questions yes or no.

Why did God give the law?

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. -Romans 3:19

What is God's response to wickedness?

Answer yes or no to my questions before asking any.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why did God give the law?

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. -Romans 3:19

Until you get the answer to that question right, there is no reason to continue this discussion, GraceAndPeace, LoveBug, Choleric, or whoever you are calling yourself now.

 

[Choleric]

Until you get the answer to that question right, there is no reason to continue this discussion, GraceAndPeace, LoveBug, Choleric, or whoever you are calling yourself now.

First of all I have always been choleric. Secondly, I asked you first. The reason you refuse to answer is because you know it doesn't fit with you heretical, unbiblical doctrine.

Paul didn't want to be found in his righteousness because it cannot save. Paul wanted to be found in Christs righteousness, which is imputed by grace through faith without the law.

You oppose yourself by putting the law above Christ in spite of all the verses that show your error. Paul knew something you don't, that keeping the law, your righteousness, isn't enough. You need someone else's righteousness. I hope one day you get it. You have to repent of your dead works, works based attempt at earning salvation and trust in Christ alone. You will receive forgiveness of all sin by the Blood of Christ and you will have Christs righteousness imputed to you,a righteousness that cannot be improved upon or made less perfect through our failure. Until you repent of dead works and repent toward God,you will not be saved.

:thumb:

 

[Choleric]

First of all I have always been choleric. Secondly, I asked you first. You have some nerve making haughty demands.

The reason you refuse to answer is because you know it doesn't fit with your heretical, unbiblical doctrine.

Paul didn't want to be found in his righteousness because it cannot save. Paul wanted to be found in Christs righteousness, which is imputed by grace through faith without the law.

You oppose yourself by putting the law above Christ in spite of all the verses that show your error. Paul knew something you don't, that keeping the law, your righteousness, isn't enough. You need someone else's righteousness. I hope one day you get it. You have to repent of your dead works, works based attempt at earning salvation and trust in Christ alone. You will receive forgiveness of all sin by the Blood of Christ and you will have Christs righteousness imputed to you,a righteousness that cannot be improved upon or made less perfect through our failure. Until you repent of dead works and repent toward God,you will not be saved.

:thumb:

 

[genuineoriginal]

First of all I have always been choleric. Secondly, I asked you first. The reason you refuse to answer is because you know it doesn't fit with you heretical, unbiblical doctrine.

I answer your questions, but you refuse to accept my answers because I am not giving you straw to build with.

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

I am trying to build with gold, not straw.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.​

That I may receive the end of my faith, the salvation of my soul.

1 Peter 1:9-16 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Paul didn't want to be found in his righteousness because it cannot save. Paul wanted to be found in Christs righteousness, which is imputed by grace through faith without the law.

You oppose yourself by putting the law above Christ in spite of all the verses that show your error. Paul knew something you don't, that keeping the law, your righteousness, isn't enough. You need someone else's righteousness. I hope one day you get it. You have to repent of your dead works, works based attempt at earning salvation and trust in Christ alone. You will receive forgiveness of all sin by the Blood of Christ and you will have Christs righteousness imputed to you,a righteousness that cannot be improved upon or made less perfect through our failure. Until you repent of dead works and repent toward God,you will not be saved.

:thumb:

Have you actually looked at your arguments to see what they lead to?

Your argument is this:

Keeping the commandments is dead works.
You must repent of dead works in order to be saved.
Therefore you must repent of keeping the commandments in order to be saved.

"Do not worship idols" is one of the commandments.
Repent is being sorry enough about doing something to stop doing it.
Therefore you must be sorry enough about keeping the commandment "Do not worship idols" to stop keeping in order to be saved.

The conclusion of your argument always ends with you must worship idols in order to be saved.

I am sure you don't mean that, so find the problem with your argument.

 

[jeremysdemo]

there is a pretty big problem when one doesn't know the difference between "good deeds" also called "works of the law" and NOT doing something, keeping a commandment is not a "deed" it is the absence of the sinful deed, it's literally doing nothing.

Not one of these dispy's on here in 6 years has been able to explain how keeping God's commandments is a "work" biblically.

Next thing you know they will be saying resting on the Sabbath is a work....duh!

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Doormat]

... keeping a commandment is not a "deed" it is the absence of the sinful deed, it's literally doing nothing.

It seems obvious, doesn't it? Yet here we are defending doing nothing against people who claim doing nothing is doing something to "earn salvation." :dizzy: