The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Ardima]

Jn 3:16 says nothing about being clearly all men ! If the world in Jn 3:16 is clearly all men without exception which you have failed to prove with scripture, then why did Jesus Christ refuse to pray for them? As their Saviour Surety He would have been obligated out of Love to Pray for them ! And world means Elect , the Sheep !

Ok, I'm tired of you misusing world as the elect, the sheep. You asked for it.

(Matthew 5:14) You (the elect, sheep) are the light of the world (all men). A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

(Matthew 13:38) The field is the world (all men); the good seed are the children of the kingdom (the elect, sheep); but the tares are the children of the wicked (the lost).

(John 1:29) The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and said,"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world (all men)."

(John 7:7) The world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot hate you (the elect, sheep); but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

(John 14:17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot receive, because it (the world) sees him not, neither knows him: but you (the elect, sheep) know him; for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

(John 15:18) If the world (all men not of the elect, sheep) hate you (the elect, sheep), you know that it hated me before it hated you.

(John 15:19) If you (the elect, sheep) were of the world (all men not of the elect, sheep), the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

For lack of time this is not an exhaustive compilation, but it is clearly enough to show that the world and the elect, sheep are not the same. Context shows that the world is one of two things; either all men, or those who are not the elect, sheep.

You must dont realize what the word World means ! Its the greek word kosmos and means a gathering or collection of particuars !


I.an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government


II.ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3


III.the world, the universe


IV.the circle of the earth, the earth


V.the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family


VI.the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ


VII.world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

A.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ



VIII. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort.

A.the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

I have taken the liberty to emphasize your admission of being wrong about the world being the elect sheep, in the definition you posted.

 

[StanJ]

Why did Jesus refuse to Pray for them He Loved Jn 17:9 ? If you Loved someone and had their best and eternal good at heart, would you pray to God for them ?

Do you not pray for those you love? John 17:9 (NIV) is about the Apostles, not everyone. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't pray for His enemies but the way you read and eisegete scripture, I guess anything can be skewed to your liking.

 

[Nanja]

Jn 3:16 says nothing about being clearly all men ! If the world in Jn 3:16 is clearly all men without exception which you have failed to prove with scripture, then why did Jesus Christ refuse to pray for them? As their Saviour Surety He would have been obligated out of Love to Pray for them ! And world means Elect , the Sheep !

Ok, I'm tired of you misusing world as the elect, the sheep. You asked for it.

(Matthew 5:14) You (the elect, sheep) are the light of the world (all men). A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

(Matthew 13:38) The field is the world (all men); the good seed are the children of the kingdom (the elect, sheep); but the tares are the children of the wicked (the lost).

(John 1:29) The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and said,"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world (all men)."

(John 7:7) The world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot hate you (the elect, sheep); but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

(John 14:17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot receive, because it (the world) sees him not, neither knows him: but you (the elect, sheep) know him; for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

(John 15:18) If the world (all men not of the elect, sheep) hate you (the elect, sheep), you know that it hated me before it hated you.

(John 15:19) If you (the elect, sheep) were of the world (all men not of the elect, sheep), the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

For lack of time this is not an exhaustive compilation, but it is clearly enough to show that the world and the elect, sheep are not the same. Context shows that the world is one of two things; either all men, or those who are not the elect, sheep.



I have taken the liberty to emphasize your admission of being wrong about the world being the elect sheep, in the definition you posted.

I highly suggest this excellent study, which may help you to understand the Truth, if it be God's Will to do so.

The World of Jn 3:16-17 !

Part 1 thru 3:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327237#892

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[StanJ]

As always, True to the scriptures!

Christ's Sheep are the Ones which comprise that World that God Loved and gave His Son to die for John 10:11;
Chosen and predestined to be His Adopted Children before the foundation of the World Eph. 1:4-5 KJV,
the Ones for whom Christ's death was for John 10:11. And therefore, they are the only Ones Christ prays / intercedes for.

Mat. 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God never had any love for these, for He hates all workers of iniquity Ps. 5:5.

They were ordained, or designated beforehand, to be condemned Jude 1:4 KJV; Mat. 25:33; Mat.25:41KJV.

Yes I agree, always be true, and rightly divide, but then you go and take the scripture you say we should be true to, OUT of context.
The LOST sheep of Israel were just that, but Jesus also had sheep of another pen. John 10:16 (NIV) You might also want to read John 10:17 (NIV), as it does not say Jesus laid down His life for His sheep, but simple He laid down His life, and as other scripture do teach, that was for ALL.
Sheep are not what John 3:16 (NIV) talks about, and Eph 1:4-5 (NIV) is not properly rendered the way you or the KJV puts it, it is more accurately rendered in the NIV as I've quoted above. Nowhere does the Bible say God predestined anyone to salvation, ONLY to being Christ Like.

 

[beloved57]

Do you not pray for those you love? John 17:9 (NIV) is about the Apostles, not everyone. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't pray for His enemies but the way you read and eisegete scripture, I guess anything can be skewed to your liking.

Jesus did not pray for them, yet He prays for them He loves and died for!

 

[StanJ]

Jesus did not pray for them, yet He prays for them He loves and died for!

Did you not read my response?

 

[beloved57]

Yes I agree, always be true, and rightly divide, but then you go and take the scripture you say we should be true to, OUT of context.
The LOST sheep of Israel were just that, but Jesus also had sheep of another pen. John 10:16 (NIV) You might also want to read John 10:17 (NIV), as it does not say Jesus laid down His life for His sheep, but simple He laid down His life, and as other scripture do teach, that was for ALL.
Sheep are not what John 3:16 (NIV) talks about, and Eph 1:4-5 (NIV) is not properly rendered the way you or the KJV puts it, it is more accurately rendered in the NIV as I've quoted above. Nowhere does the Bible say God predestined anyone to salvation, ONLY to being Christ Like.

Who says that Sheep are not who are meant in John 3:16 ! Also Christ death couldn't be for all without exception since those He died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom5:10, and many others are as enemies and unbelievers under Gods Wrath and condemnation John 3:18,36 !

 

[StanJ]

Who says that Sheep are not who are meant in John 3:16 ! Also Christ death couldn't be for all without exception since those He died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom5:10, and many others are as enemies and unbelievers under Gods Wrath and condemnation John 3:18,36 !

Does it say sheep? I'm now using the same logic you use.
You contradict yourself all the time when you try to explain Rom 5:10
As ALL are sinners, and enemies of God, and as He reconciled ALL of them, then who is left after ALL?

 

[beloved57]

Does it say sheep? I'm now using the same logic you use.
You contradict yourself all the time when you try to explain Rom 5:10
As ALL are sinners, and enemies of God, and as He reconciled ALL of them, then who is left after ALL?

Does it say it is not the Sheep? Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 yet many others are enemies and under Gods Wrath and condemnation! John 3:18,36!

 

[StanJ]

Does it say it is not the Sheep? Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 yet many others are enemies and under Gods Wrath and condemnation! John 3:18,36!

Does it say it is? Do you just use this rational when it suits you?

Christ died for ALL, and Rom 5:10 says so. It doesn't say THOSE CHRIST DIED FOR, it says WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES.
Who was God's enemy? ALL were God's enemy.

 

[beloved57]

Does it say it is? Do you just use this rational when it suits you?

Christ died for ALL, and Rom 5:10 says so. It doesn't say THOSE CHRIST DIED FOR, it says WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES.
Who was God's enemy? ALL were God's enemy.

Does it say it is not? We know Christ death wasn't for all without exception since some of the enemies He died for are reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and other enemies are not since they are under Gods Wrath and condemnation John 3:18,36 so His Death discriminated enemies! He died for some and not for others!

 

[beloved57]

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me ! 3

What was one of the things Christ prayed for concerning those He died for ! Now remember when Christ prayed for specific ones in Jn 17:9, He not only prayed for them, but also for them that shall believe on Him from their Word or Testimony Jn 17:19

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Mainly this is a Prayer for the Church His Body ! And for these same ones He sanctified Himself Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

This sanctifying of Himself here means He died for them as their High Priest, He offered Himself in their behalf Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And one of the things He prayed for as it regards them in particular, is that they be Sanctified through God's Truth Jn 17:17,19

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Hence it follows that if any one of them that He died for, He sanctified Himself for, is not Sanctified through the Truth of God, Christ's Prayer was not answered and honored by the One He prayed to ! What an horrible conclusion that would be. I ask, is it possible, that one Christ died for, to live to live their life and die, or Christ returns, without ever being Sanctified through God's Truth ? I say NO, what say you ?

 

[StanJ]

Does it say it is not? We know Christ death wasn't for all without exception since some of the enemies He died for are reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and other enemies are not since they are under Gods Wrath and condemnation John 3:18,36 so His Death discriminated enemies! He died for some and not for others!

Again you fail to comprehend reconciliation and condemnation. I'd say look up their definitions but I kinda doubt that will help you? I give up trying.

 

[beloved57]

Again you fail to comprehend reconciliation and condemnation. I'd say look up their definitions but I kinda doubt that will help you? I give up trying.

You don't comprehend the truth of Christ death and reconciliation!

 

[beloved57]

Jn 3:16 says nothing about being clearly all men ! If the world in Jn 3:16 is clearly all men without exception which you have failed to prove with scripture, then why did Jesus Christ refuse to pray for them? As their Saviour Surety He would have been obligated out of Love to Pray for them ! And world means Elect , the Sheep !

Ok, I'm tired of you misusing world as the elect, the sheep. You asked for it.

(Matthew 5:14) You (the elect, sheep) are the light of the world (all men). A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

(Matthew 13:38) The field is the world (all men); the good seed are the children of the kingdom (the elect, sheep); but the tares are the children of the wicked (the lost).

(John 1:29) The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and said,"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world (all men)."

(John 7:7) The world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot hate you (the elect, sheep); but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

(John 14:17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (all men not of the elect,sheep) cannot receive, because it (the world) sees him not, neither knows him: but you (the elect, sheep) know him; for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

(John 15:18) If the world (all men not of the elect, sheep) hate you (the elect, sheep), you know that it hated me before it hated you.

(John 15:19) If you (the elect, sheep) were of the world (all men not of the elect, sheep), the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

For lack of time this is not an exhaustive compilation, but it is clearly enough to show that the world and the elect, sheep are not the same. Context shows that the world is one of two things; either all men, or those who are not the elect, sheep.



I have taken the liberty to emphasize your admission of being wrong about the world being the elect sheep, in the definition you posted.

The Sheep, Christ died for specifically Jn 10:11,15 is a World according to the definition of the word world kosmos. You see a World according to that definition is:

VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort


So His Sheep that He died for is a World ! Do you deny this ?

 

[beloved57]

Heres the Will of the Father for Christ !

Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This speaks to limited atonement, and here's why; Its the Fathers will says Christ, not all without exception, but for all or everyone which seeth [Spiritually] the Son and Believeth on Him, for them to be having everlasting life !

Notice the particular clarification here, its restricted to them who are first seeing the Son ! Folks this seeing does not mean a mere physical seeing as many of the jews did in the days of His dlesh, but its a Spiritual seeing. The word for see here is the greek word theoreo and means:

I.to be a spectator, look at, behold

A.to view attentively, take a view of, survey

i.to view mentally, consider


discern, (literally, figuratively (experience) or intensively (acknowledge)):—behold, consider, look on, perceive

Its a seeing in a spiritual contemplation, it denotes a concentration, to see Him in a noteworthy and significant manner, as valuable. Remember Peter said of believers this 1 Pet 2:7

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious/valuable: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Notice that word precious, hence they are seeing Him in a Spiritual and Mentally way, in a deeply thoughtful manner, He is seen as Valuable and being Valued ! This kind of seeing of Christ comes from having Spiritual Life abiding in one by the unction and presence of the Holy Spirit, how He makes Christ known, by revealing Him, so that He captures our Spiritual attention on the things of Christ's Person and Work Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So its not just anyone whom Christ comes to save according to the Will of the Father Jn 6:37-40 !

 

[Nanja]

Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This speaks to limited atonement, and heres why; Its the Fathers will says Christ, not all without exception, but for all or everyone which seeth [Spiritually] the Son and Believeth on Him, for them to be having everlasting life !

Notice the particular clarification here, its restricted to them who are first seeing the Son ! Folks this seeing does not mean a mere physical seeing as many of the jews did in the days of His dlesh, but its a Spiritual seeing. The word for see here is the greek word theoreo and means:

I.to be a spectator, look at, behold

A.to view attentively, take a view of, survey

i.to view mentally, consider


discern, (literally, figuratively (experience) or intensively (acknowledge)):—behold, consider, look on, perceive

Its a seeing in a spiritual contemplation, it denotes a concentration, to see Him in a noteworthy and significant manner, as valuable. Remember Peter said of believers this 1 Pet 2:7

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious/valuable: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Notice that word precious, hence they are seeing Him in a Spiritual and Mentally way, in a deeply thoughtful manner, He is seen as Valuable and being Valued ! This kind of seeing of Christ comes from having Spiritual Life abiding in one by the unction and presence of the Holy Spirit, how He makes Christ known, by revealing Him, so that He captures our Spiritual attention on the things of Christ's Person and Work Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So its not just anyone whom Christ comes to save according to the Will of the Father Jn 6:37-40 !

Amen! Only the Elect Sheep, the Body of Christ, His Sons Chosen in Him Eph. 1:4-5
shall "see" Him experimentally in their Head, and believe on Him, with their New Heart
when they are made Spiritually Alive in the New Birth Ezek. 36:26; Gal. 4:6!

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

Amen! Only the Elect Sheep, the Body of Christ, His Sons Chosen in Him Eph. 1:4-5
shall "see" Him experimentally in their Head, and believe on Him, with their New Heart
when they are made Spiritually Alive in the New Birth Ezek. 36:26; Gal. 4:6!

~~~~~

Of a Truth!

 

[StanJ]

Of a Truth!

Really? Where does the Bible say "elect sheep"?

 

[Nanja]

Really? Where does the Bible say "elect sheep"?

The Bible has its own hermeneutic, that is we are to compare scripture with scripture
to come to Truth 1 Cor 2:13. God is Spirit John 4:24 and thus His Word is also Spiritual.

The Elect, Election of Grace, Christ's Sheep, Christ's Church, Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ,
His People He came to save Mat. 1:21, Israel He Promised to Save Is. 45:17...

These are all one and the same!

~~~~~