The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Nanja]

One of the biblical reasons we know that Christ could not have and did not die for all men without exception, its because all men without exception shall not be declared /made Righteous as Per Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now who is foolish and unlearned enough to state all without shall be made Righteous when scripture tells us of the exclusion of the unrighteous 1 Cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Certainly these unrighteous ones are not of those Christ's obedience shall make Righteous !

The unrighteous :

describes those being found guilty in God's court of law, i.e. as a binding, legal infraction against His law which calls for divine retribution for disrespecting true justice.

That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !

Yes, the unrighteous are found guilty because they are still in their sin.


But the People Christ came to Save Mat. 1:21 have remission of sins,
and the penalty thereof Luke 1:77, and are Saved by His Life Rom. 5:10.


So there are two groups of people:

The ones Christ made Righteous Rom. 5:19 (His Sheep)

The unrighteous who will die in their sins (goats).


Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


This proves Limited Atonement.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

nanja

Yes, the unrighteous are found guilty because they are still in their sin.

Exactly, for Christ was not their Surety Heb 7:22

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

But the People Christ came to Save Mat. 1:21 have remission of sins,
and the penalty thereof Luke 1:77, and are Saved by His Life Rom. 5:10.

Yes, Christ has satisfied for them all of God's Law and Justice !

So there are two groups of people:

The ones Christ made Righteous Rom. 5:19 (His Sheep)

The unrighteous who will die in their sins (goats).

Thats Right !

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, Christ's Death offsets and abolishes their wages of sin death, so they must be made alive with Eternal and Spiritual Life as a Free Gift !

 

[Nanja]

That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !

You see, the very fact that Christ died for one, automatically makes them Righteous, because His Death was His Obedience that shall make them Righteous Rom 5:19 ! Not His Resurrection, His Resurrection did not pay satisfaction to God's Law and Justice, no,but His obedient life under the law and His substitutionary death did, and His Resurrection was proof, evidence that His Obedience unto death makes them He died for Righteous Rom 5:19 !

Also the non imputation of sin makes them Righteous, which is necessitated if Christ is to die for our sins, because they must be imputed to Him in order for Him to die for them, which means they cannot be imputed to the ones He is dying for !

So, non imputation of sin applies to everyone He died for, which non imputation makes them Righteous by having Righteousness imputed to them in turn for them not having sin imputed to them, proof here Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So Vs 6 the blessedness of imputed righteousness without works, is the fruit of being of those Vs 8 whom the Lord will not impute sin !

And the reason why God will not impute sin unto them, is because the sin of theirs has been imputed to Christ, for Him to die for !

So this equates to all for whom He died, being made Righteous by Righteousness being Imputed to them without works Rom 4:6 which compliments Rom 5:19 being made Righteous by the Obedience of One !

Amen, they go hand in hand!

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

Amen, they go hand in hand!

~~~~~

Absolutely !

 

[rougueone]

Jesus did die for all.

John 3:16---16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…

I do not know whom all the people in the world are. I know I must remain diligent, humble, and submissive to Holy Spirit, to make Jesus known, by prayer, fasting, and letting Holy Spirit breath through me so HE can save all whom may be saved.

 

[beloved57]

Amen, they go hand in hand!

~~~~~

Jesus did die for all.

John 3:16---16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…

I do not know whom all the people in the world are. I know I must remain diligent, humble, and submissive to Holy Spirit, to make Jesus known, by prayer, fasting, and letting Holy Spirit breath through me so HE can save all whom may be saved.

Did you understand my post?

 

[rougueone]

Did you understand my post?

" Jesus atoned for those who are called by HIS name, " The church". I understand . I agree.
But God-Jesus is still building HIS church, which I made my post. I am careful with " limited Atonement" because it can cause those who do not fully grasp this, as exclusive to those who do know Jesus. There are many people who browse these threads . And some are looking for Jesus.
Thus, why I made the post. Salvation is to all who call upon the name of Lord, Jesus.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[beloved57]

" Jesus atoned for those who are called by HIS name, " The church". I understand . I agree.
But God-Jesus is still building HIS church, which I made my post. I am careful with " limited Atonement" because it can cause those who do not fully grasp this, as exclusive to those who do know Jesus. There are many people who browse these threads . And some are looking for Jesus.
Thus, why I made the post. Salvation is to all who call upon the name of Lord, Jesus.
Thanks for sharing.

If you understood them then please explain back to me what I explained in them!

 

[Bright Raven]

If you understood them then please explain back to me what I explained in them!

He understands that salvation is given unto those who call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[beloved57]

He understands that salvation is given unto those who call upon the name of the Lord.

Did you understand them? Be prepared to explain and discuss them back to me!

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus did die for all.

John 3:16---16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…

I do not know whom all the people in the world are. I know I must remain diligent, humble, and submissive to Holy Spirit, to make Jesus known, by prayer, fasting, and letting Holy Spirit breath through me so HE can save all whom may be saved.

Not as the Jew that he was. Do you believe that he was a Jew? A loyal Jew would never contradict the Prophets of God who say that no one can die for the sins of another. Read Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20.

 

[beloved57]

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me !

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me !

Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This is a strange prayer of the Lord, if indeed He died for all men without exception, and having Loved them Jn 3:16 and having their eternal interest for the good at Heart. The Lord Jesus Christ as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 prayed only for those given Him [in election] His Sheep, as He said earlier that they were given Him Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice the statement in Vs 29 "My Father, which gave them me"

The word gave here, the greek word didomi is the very same word given in Jn 17:9, both times it refers to God's Elect or Sheep, or Church, and quite frankly they are the only ones He prays and intercedes for.

Now He prays for those that were believing at the Time of His Ministry, and for the Ones who shall believe on Him in the future Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

hence it is scripturally reasonable to state that He died only for Believers, and those who shall believe, now if they never believe, its because they were never of that Sheep World of His that He died for and prayed for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !

 

[Ardima]

Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This is a strange prayer of the Lord, if indeed He died for all men without exception, and having Loved them Jn 3:16 and having their eternal interest for the good at Heart. The Lord Jesus Christ as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 prayed only for those given Him [in election] His Sheep, as He said earlier that they were given Him Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice the statement in Vs 29 "My Father, which gave them me"

The word gave here, the greek word didomi is the very same word given in Jn 17:9, both times it refers to God's Elect or Sheep, or Church, and quite frankly they are the only ones He prays and intercedes for.

Now He prays for those that were believing at the Time of His Ministry, and for the Ones who shall believe on Him in the future Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

hence it is scripturally reasonable to state that He died only for Believers, and those who shall believe, now if they never believe, its because they were never of that Sheep World of His that He died for and prayed for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !

You contradict yourself within the first three lines of your post...

First you quote John 17:9 and then continue on to use John 3:16 to support your position. You cannot use "world" and have it both ways. Either world means "all men" or it means "the elect." In John 3:16 you have God loving the world (clearly all men) and then you have Jesus praying for "not the world but for those God has given Him" in John 17:9. If you read the context it was not a prayer for his sheep (all found in Christ); it was a prayer specifically for the twelve. (eleven not counting the son of perdition). Clearly "world" does not refer only to the elect as you so much like to claim.

 

[StanJ]

I just love it when false teachers say there is not ONE shred of evidence in scripture and then tons of evidence follows. Do these people lives in vacuums?

So we have Rom 3:23 (NIV) and Rom 5:12 (NIV), which is answered by Rom 6:10 (NIV) and Heb 9:26 (NIV)

 

[beloved57]

You contradict yourself within the first three lines of your post...

First you quote John 17:9 and then continue on to use John 3:16 to support your position. You cannot use "world" and have it both ways. Either world means "all men" or it means "the elect." In John 3:16 you have God loving the world (clearly all men) and then you have Jesus praying for "not the world but for those God has given Him" in John 17:9. If you read the context it was not a prayer for his sheep (all found in Christ); it was a prayer specifically for the twelve. (eleven not counting the son of perdition). Clearly "world" does not refer only to the elect as you so much like to claim.

Jn 3:16 says nothing about being clearly all men ! If the world in Jn 3:16 is clearly all men without exception which you have failed to prove with scripture, then why did Jesus Christ refuse to pray for them ? As their Saviour Surety He would have been obligated out of Love to Pray for them ! And world means Elect , the Sheep !

You must dont realize what the word World means ! Its the greek word kosmos and means a gathering or collection of particuars !


I.an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government


II.ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3


III.the world, the universe


IV.the circle of the earth, the earth


V.the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family


VI.the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ


VII.world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

A.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ



VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

A.the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

 

[beloved57]

I just love it when false teachers say there is not ONE shred of evidence in scripture and then tons of evidence follows. Do these people lives in vacuums?

So we have Rom 3:23 (NIV) and Rom 5:12 (NIV), which is answered by Rom 6:10 (NIV) and Heb 9:26 (NIV)

Why did Jesus refuse to Pray for them He Loved Jn 17:9 ? If you Loved someone and had their best and eternal good at heart, would you pray to God for them ?

 

[Nanja]

Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This is a strange prayer of the Lord, if indeed He died for all men without exception, and having Loved them Jn 3:16 and having their eternal interest for the good at Heart. The Lord Jesus Christ as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 prayed only for those given Him [in election] His Sheep, as He said earlier that they were given Him Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice the statement in Vs 29 "My Father, which gave them me"

The word gave here, the greek word didomi is the very same word given in Jn 17:9, both times it refers to God's Elect or Sheep, or Church, and quite frankly they are the only ones He prays and intercedes for.

Now He prays for those that were believing at the Time of His Ministry, and for the Ones who shall believe on Him in the future Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

hence it is scripturally reasonable to state that He died only for Believers, and those who shall believe, now if they never believe, its because they were never of that Sheep World of His that He died for and prayed for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !

As always, True to the scriptures!

Christ's Sheep are the Ones which comprise that World that God Loved and gave His Son to die for John 10:11;
Chosen and predestined to be His Adopted Children before the foundation of the World Eph. 1:4-5 KJV,
the Ones for whom Christ's death was for John 10:11. And therefore, they are the only Ones Christ prays / intercedes for.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I never knew you, nor died for you or prayed for you if you are not of that Sheepfold the Father gave me !

Mat. 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God never had any love for these, for He hates all workers of iniquity Ps. 5:5.

They were ordained, or designated beforehand, to be condemned Jude 1:4 KJV; Mat. 25:33; Mat.25:41KJV.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

As always, True to the scriptures!

Christ's Sheep are the Ones which comprise that World that God Loved and gave His Son to die for John 10:11;
Chosen and predestined to be His Adopted Children before the foundation of the World Eph. 1:4-5 KJV,
the Ones for whom Christ's death was for John 10:11. And therefore, they are the only Ones Christ prays / intercedes for.





Mat. 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God never had any love for these, for He hates all workers of iniquity Ps. 5:5.

They were ordained, or designated beforehand, to be condemned Jude 1:4 KJV; Mat. 25:33; Mat.25:41KJV.

~~~~~

Amen Sister, He never knew them because they were not His Sheep that He did know and layed down His life for John 10:14-15 !

 

[Nanja]

Amen Sister, He never knew them because they were not His Sheep that He did know and layed down His life for John 10:14-15 !

:thumb:

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

I Pray not for the World, but for them you given me ! 2

A reason why Christ prayed not for the World of Jn 17:9 is because they in it were not given to Him by the Father as the others were who do and shall believe on Him. Now those given to Him were God the Fathers special Chosen ones, those who before the foundation of the World He had Chosen for Himself Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The word Chosen here , the greek word eklegó which means:

I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.

"out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

to pick or choose out for oneself

Its in what is called in the greek the middle voice meaning:

The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit !

The Subject here is God performed unto Himself , for His Own benefit or His Own Sake, like when it is said Ps 79:9

9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

reputation, fame, glory

Isa 43:7

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

These God Created for His Own Glory, He gave them to Christ, and they are the ones Christ prayed for in Jn 17:9 and not the rest of the world, they were both the Fathers and then His Jn 17:10

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. They are His People Matt 1:21

Now those God the Father gave to Christ are in and of themselves a World. They are particular ones given, seperated from the rest, and one of the definition of the word world kosmos is:

VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

And the word particular means of or belonging to a single or specific person, thing or category, specific or special or peculiar Just like its said of God's Chosen Israel He so Loved Deut 7:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Thats a World according to the definition of kosmos, so hence all those given Christ in Jn 17:9, are entirely different from the ones He does not pray for in Jn 17:9, and that cannot be debated ! And this World that Christ does Pray for, id the World God so Loved, and Christ came to save Jn 3:16-17

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World of His Chosen Deut 7:6-7 !