The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Nanja]

Another way of determining exactly for whom Christ died, is understanding whom it was He prayed for ! If we remember, He frankly states that He does not pray for the world at large Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And later He states thise Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Thats because those that shall believe on Him through their word, would be His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Remember in Jn 17:9 He mentions those given Him !

Well the same is said of His Sheep Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The word gave here is the same word given in Jn 17:9 the greek word didōmi :


I.to give


II.to give something to someone

A.of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage

i.to bestow a gift



B.to grant, give to one asking, let have


C.to supply, furnish, necessary things


D.to give over, deliver

i.to reach out, extend, present


ii.of a writing


iii.to give over to one's care, intrust, commit

and those who never believe on Him, they were not His Sheep given Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

As such He never died for them, nor did He ever pray/intercede for them Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Christ died for only Believers !

Amen, just as your post heading states:
"He died for them that shall believe on Him !"

Those Christ died for, His Sheep John 10:11,15,
are given Faith Eph. 2:8; John 3:27 to believe on Him
through the powerful work of God the Holy Spirit in the New Birth!

2 Thes. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~

 

[OCTOBER23]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[beloved57]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That's speaking of those who believe on Him! Those whosoever that are believing in Jn3:16 are those He died for and prayed for John 17:20 ! Believing one Him is the fruit of Gods love and Christ death for them! You don't believe that!

 

[beloved57]

Amen, just as your post heading states:
"He died for them that shall believe on Him !"

Those Christ died for, His Sheep John 10:11,15,
are given Faith Eph. 2:8; John 3:27 to believe on Him
through the powerful work of God the Holy Spirit in the New Birth!

2 Thes. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~

God has given you understanding! May He be pleased to continue His good work in you!

 

[OCTOBER23]

Originally Posted by OCTOBER23 View Post
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That's speaking of those who believe on Him! Those whosoever that are believing in Jn3:16 are those He died for and prayed for John 17:20 ! Believing on Him is the fruit of Gods love and Christ death for them!
=====================================

whats the difference 57 ?

 

[Nanja]

God has given you understanding! May He be pleased to continue His good work in you!

Thanking and Praising Him always!

Precious words from one who Knows Him and is able to recognize His work.
And may He be pleased to continue to do His good work in you!

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by OCTOBER23 View Post
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That's speaking of those who believe on Him! Those whosoever that are believing in Jn3:16 are those He died for and prayed for John 17:20 ! Believing on Him is the fruit of Gods love and Christ death for them!
=====================================

whats the difference 57 ?

Read my threads!

 

[beloved57]

Thanking and Praising Him always!

Precious words from one who Knows Him and is able to recognize His work.
And may He be pleased to continue to do His good work in you!

~~~~~

Amen!

 

[beloved57]

For its impossible for Christ's Death, that which propitiated the Wrath of God, for the sins of those Christ did die for, 1 Jn 2:2, its not possible that it was for all mankind without exception, simply because the scripture verifies that many are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now this would be impossible for anyone whom Christ's Death propitiated Gods wrath for !

And again Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Because of what things does the wrath of God come upon the children of disobedience ? Their sins, whoremongering, covetousness, idolatry and so forth.

But thats impossible for any that Christ's Death has already propitiated God for their sins !

Those Christ died for also was delivered from the wrath to come 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Remember when Jesus was raised from the dead, it was for the Justification of those whose sins He was delivered for Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Again Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

If Christ had died for them, God would have no wrath coming to them, and He would have been merciful upon their disobedience/unbelief , as He does for His Elect Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that[IN ORDER THAT] he might have mercy upon all.

That word disobedience in Eph 5:6 is the same word here in Rom 11:32 for unbelief,

For He has mercy upon all for whom Christ's Death hath propitiated Him in behalf of.

God has no wrath for those He has purposed to Have Mercy Upon for their disobedience !

Heb 8:12

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[beloved57]

Because He did not die for them !

The reason why the wrath of God is upon men as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In the original the word abideth is in the present tense, the wrath of God is presently abiding on them which believe not !

And why is it that the wrath of God shall yet come upon upon men as in Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This wrath of God I believe is yet future as it refers to these scriptures Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yet those of us He died for were delivered from that wrath by His death 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead[after having died for us], even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His Resurrection for us is proof that His death delivered us from the wrath to come !

Now the reason for this wrath upon men is not so much because of their unbelief, but more importantly, its because Christ never propitiated Gods wrath as it concerned them, He never for them satisfied God Law and Justice against their sins ! He never was their Surety, He never knew them !

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for our sins according to scripture !

Now one of the ways Christ died for our sins according to scripture besides as it fulfilled prophecy of scripture, it also was according to the types and shadows of scripture. One of those ways it[His death] for His People was typified under the Old Covenant was that by the Aaronic Priesthood. If you recall Aaron was the High Priest for the Sins of the Covenant People Israel ! Well likewise Christ was and is the High Priest of His People, not only from amongst the jews, but also from among the Gentiles/Nations, Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Thats why all Nations of people were made by His Death a Kingdom of Priests as His Offspring Rev 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The people here and in Heb 2:17 are not all Humanity, but an Elect People, the Children of Israel ; Now for example lets look at Ex 28:29-30

29 And Aaron[The High Priest] shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.

30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.


Now Cp Heb 9:24-25

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Hence the Offering in the prescence of the Lord as High Priest was specifically for the Children of Israel ! Aarom on the Day of Atonement as High Priest would confess the sins of the Children of Israel for the scapgoat to bear away Lev 16:20-22

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Thats what Jn 1:29 had in mind, the taking away the sin of the world by the Lamb of God !

The words taketh away are the greek word airō:


I.to raise up, elevate, lift up

A.to raise from the ground, take up: stones


B.to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand


C.to draw up: a fish



II.to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear


III.to bear away what has been raised, carry off

Thats what the scapegoat did with the sins of Israel, which was the OT Church Acts 7:38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for our sins according to scripture !2

And so as the Great High Priest of the New Covenant, He representatively gave Himself for the sins of the New Covenant Israel, The Church Eph 5:25,2

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:2 is referring to the Church in Vs 25, yet He gave Himself as an Sacrifice, an Offering, is language looking back to the OT Economy of the Church; Hence the Our Sins of 1 Cor 15:3 according to scripture is the Israel of God, a Chosen Elect People, which was Typified by the OC Israel, which in any case, this rule of scripture does forbid that Christ's Death was for all mankind in general, just as the Aaronic Priesthood on the Day of Atonement was not for all mankind in the general !

 

[Cross Reference]

Did not Jesus give His life for the redemption of Adam's seed who were under the penalty of eternal separation from God? For redemption's sake, why must that be looked upon as a "myth"? What purpose does it serve? Are we to believe the blood of "fallen" man is variable? Believing that would surely be a "myth".

 

[beloved57]

Did not Jesus give His life for the redemption of Adam's seed who were under the penalty of eternal separation from God? For redemption's sake, why must that be looked upon as a "myth"? What purpose does it serve? Are we to believe the blood of "fallen" man is variable? Believing that would surely be a "myth".

Posts 840-41, did you read them ?

 

[Nanja]

And so as the Great High Priest of the New Covenant, He representatively gave Himself for the sins of the New Covenant Israel, The Church Eph 5:25,2

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:2 is referring to the Church in Vs 25, yet He gave Himself as an Sacrifice, an Offering, is language looking back to the OT Economy of the Church; Hence the Our Sins of 1 Cor 15:3 according to scripture is the Israel of God, a Chosen Elect People, which was Typified by the OC Israel, which in any case, this rule of scripture does forbid that Christ's Death was for all mankind in general, just as the Aaronic Priesthood on the Day of Atonement was not for all mankind in the general !

TY for this excellent 2-part study!

Amen, in light of OC types and shadows, the our sins spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:3
can only refer to the sins of The Church who were chosen in Christ before
the foundation Eph. 1:4, all of the Seed of Abraham.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

They are the Chosen Remnant of Psalm 105:6, who were originally in Adam; when he fell so did they.

Only to them were the Promises made Gal. 3:16; the all nations that shall be blessed Gal. 3:8,
and the only People to whom Salvation belongs: Israel.

Is. 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

~~~~~

 

[Cross Reference]

TY for this excellent 2-part study!

Amen, in light of OC types and shadows, the our sins spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:3
can only refer to the sins of The Church who were chosen in Christ before
the foundation Eph. 1:4, all of the Seed of Abraham.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

They are the Chosen Remnant of Psalm 105:6, who were originally in Adam; when he fell so did they.

Only to them were the Promises made Gal. 3:16; the all nations that shall be blessed Gal. 3:8,
and the only People to whom Salvation belongs: Israel.

Is. 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

~~~~~

Wrong! All who believe are of the seed of Abraham. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV)

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith". Romans 4:13 (KJV)

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16 (KJV)

Are you of faith Nanja?

 

[beloved57]

TY for this excellent 2-part study!

Amen, in light of OC types and shadows, the our sins spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:3
can only refer to the sins of The Church who were chosen in Christ before
the foundation Eph. 1:4, all of the Seed of Abraham.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

They are the Chosen Remnant of Psalm 105:6, who were originally in Adam; when he fell so did they.

Only to them were the Promises made Gal. 3:16; the all nations that shall be blessed Gal. 3:8,
and the only People to whom Salvation belongs: Israel.

Is. 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

~~~~~

Thank God you have received the Truth!

 

[beloved57]

Wrong! All who believe are of the seed of Abraham. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV)

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith". Romans 4:13 (KJV)

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16 (KJV)

Are you of faith Nanja?

840-41 ? Did you read and understand them?

 

[beloved57]

Because He didnt make all without exception righteous !

One of the biblical reasons we know that Christ could not have and did not die for all men without exception, its because all men without exception shall not be declared /made Righteous as Per Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now who is foolish and unlearned enough to state all without exception shall be made Righteous when scripture tells us of the exclusion of the unrighteous 1 Cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Certainly these unrighteous ones are not of those Christ's obedience shall make Righteous !

The unrighteous :

describes those being found guilty in God's court of law, i.e. as a binding, legal infraction against His law which calls for divine retribution for disrespecting true justice.

That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !

 

[beloved57]

Because He didnt make all without exception righteous !

Because He didnt make all without exception righteous !

That simply cannot apply to any for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice in their behalf !

You see, the very fact that Christ died for one, automatically makes them Righteous, because His Death was His Obedience that shall make them Righteous Rom 5:19 ! Not His Resurrection, His Resurrection did not pay satisfaction to God's Law and Justice, no,but His obedient life under the law and His substitutionary death did, and His Resurrection was proof, evidence that His Obedience unto death makes them He died for Righteous Rom 5:19 !

Also the non imputation of sin makes them Righteous, which is necessitated if Christ is to die for our sins, because they must be imputed to Him in order for Him to die for them, which means they cannot be imputed to the ones He is dying for !

So, non imputation of sin applies to everyone He died for, which non imputation makes them Righteous by having Righteousness imputed to them in turn for them not having sin imputed to them, proof here Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So Vs 6 the blessedness of imputed righteousness without works, is the fruit of being of those Vs 8 whom the Lord will not impute sin !

And the reason why God will not impute sin unto them, is because the sin of theirs has been imputed to Christ, for Him to die for !

So this equates to all for whom He died, being made Righteous by Righteousness being Imputed to them without works Rom 4:6 which compliments Rom 5:19 being made Righteous by the Obedience of One !