The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
The reason some go to hell is not a problem or limitation with His love or provision. The reason is that some men love darkness more than light (Jn. 1) and some suppress truth despite God making it plain (Rom. 1). They are without excuse and responsible for their persistent rebellion/rejection in the face of God's universal offer.
You negate the conditions of salvation and fail to see that relationships involve two vs one persons.
Damian
New member
Your response implies that the "saved" have something to boast about because their salvation is ultimately due to their superior character (i.e. the saved, as opposed to the unsaved, are those individuals who love light more than darkness and who do not suppress the truth).
Everyone is capable of responding to or rejecting truth. Why do some do drugs and murder and others do not? Salvation is all of grace. Some cease resisting God's grace and are saved. Everyone should make this decision, but they do not for a variety of reasons. Some continue in rebellion because their heart and desires are selfish and bent on ignoring God. They are fully culpable for this and without excuse.
We do not boast for receiving a free gift. The provision is based on His death, not our brains or goodness.
You lack the most basic understanding of divine truth in Romans 1-5 because you have opened your mind to demonic deception in ACIM. You also cannot think spiritually.
What about you? You can read the Bible and respond to His work in your life, yet you do not. Why? If you do respond, it will not make you a hero nor a provider of salvation.
Yes vs No. Take away free will and intelligence concepts and you cannot explain anything.
Damian
New member
Yes, what about me? You would have me believe that you "love the light and truth" while I do not.
Jesus said, "No one decides against his happiness, but he may do so if he does not see he does it." ("A Course in Miracles")
* Selah *
Free will (libertarian) simply implies that our choices are ultimately based on an element of chance. Is this what you believe our eternal fate is based on? A crapshoot?
Free will involves intelligence, not unintelligent chance. Evolustionists are wrong.
Jesus did not say that since it is a counterfeit Christ in ACIM.
I have not always loved the light. You can love the light, but you are not willing and are blinded/deceived by the god of this world. We need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, but you must receive vs reject truth. Pride is your downfall.
Damian
New member
This is interesting. The "saved" are humble; the "unsaved" are not. It appears to me that the so-called humble here (that would be you) are boasting.
Whether Jesus said it or not is actually irrelevant. The point is the statement speaks for itself and you cannot refute it.
"No one decides against his happiness, but he may do so if he does not see he does it." ("A Course in Miracles")
beloved57
Well-known member
So we see that you deny that its the death of Christ that saves ! Thats what is called anti [against] Christ teaching, the devil loves it..
beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ, that it actually saves, and so those who are not being saved, Christ did not die for them..
Jn 12:23-24
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Christ saving death is how He is Glorified..
Jesus here in these verses is speaking of Himself and the Church, His body.. For it shall come forth out of death with Him, a Living and Spotless Church, Justified by His blood and righteousness.
Its a faithful saying, if we be dead with Him, that is died when He died [ 2 Cor 5:14-15] we shall also live with Him, that is experience the power of His resurrection..
All for whom He died, will be raised from spiritual death, begotten unto a lively hope, how ? By the resurrection from the dead 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
So as Jesus states in Jn 12:24, His death [ to include His resurrection] brings forth much fruit.That is, it actually produces positive results and benefits for them He died..
Jn 12:23-24
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Christ saving death is how He is Glorified..
Jesus here in these verses is speaking of Himself and the Church, His body.. For it shall come forth out of death with Him, a Living and Spotless Church, Justified by His blood and righteousness.
Its a faithful saying, if we be dead with Him, that is died when He died [ 2 Cor 5:14-15] we shall also live with Him, that is experience the power of His resurrection..
All for whom He died, will be raised from spiritual death, begotten unto a lively hope, how ? By the resurrection from the dead 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
So as Jesus states in Jn 12:24, His death [ to include His resurrection] brings forth much fruit.That is, it actually produces positive results and benefits for them He died..
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beloved57
Well-known member
The word fruit in Jn 12:24
Jesus stated [speaking of His death and being Glorified thereby] that if a corn of wheat [Himself] falls to the ground [His crucifixion and death] and dies, It [Himself, the corn of wheat] bringeth forth
much fruit..
That is He is the effective cause via His death of bring forth or producing fruit ..
The greek word for fruit is:
karpos and means:
the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
He brings forth much posterity, his progeny, or His seed..
For this is spoken of in Isa 53 as a result of His sufferings for those He bare their iniquities notice:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
That word seed is the hebrew zera` which means:
offspring, descendants, posterity, children
And this seed or posterity shall serve Him...as per Ps 22:30
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Now look at vs 26 of John 12 right after Jesus speaks about bringing forth fruit in vs 24 :
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
You see, Jesus through His vicarious death will produce a seed that shall serve Him..
This seed will be of all races of people, that is He will draw all races to Him, to serve Him..
And we know this is not the case for all men without exception, so therefore Christ death could not have been for all men without exception, unless it failed to bear fruit..
Jesus stated [speaking of His death and being Glorified thereby] that if a corn of wheat [Himself] falls to the ground [His crucifixion and death] and dies, It [Himself, the corn of wheat] bringeth forth
much fruit..
That is He is the effective cause via His death of bring forth or producing fruit ..
The greek word for fruit is:
karpos and means:
the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
He brings forth much posterity, his progeny, or His seed..
For this is spoken of in Isa 53 as a result of His sufferings for those He bare their iniquities notice:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
That word seed is the hebrew zera` which means:
offspring, descendants, posterity, children
And this seed or posterity shall serve Him...as per Ps 22:30
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Now look at vs 26 of John 12 right after Jesus speaks about bringing forth fruit in vs 24 :
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
You see, Jesus through His vicarious death will produce a seed that shall serve Him..
This seed will be of all races of people, that is He will draw all races to Him, to serve Him..
And we know this is not the case for all men without exception, so therefore Christ death could not have been for all men without exception, unless it failed to bear fruit..
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beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results.
It shall make many righteous Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death Phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
Jn 12 :32
32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per
Jn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.
Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.
The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:14-15
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten.
Here is the background story Numbers 21:5-9
5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live. But they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..
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beloved57
Well-known member
Jn 12 32 continued !
Jesus stated in this verse :
Jn 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..
Lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Heb 12:2
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..
Heb 2:10
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12:32
Jesus stated in this verse :
Jn 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..
Lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Heb 12:2
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..
Heb 2:10
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12:32
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beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
We know that Christ did not die for all men without exception, because by His death [stripes] He heals all those He bare their sins, in order that they should live unto righteousness..
As stated another way by Paul in Rom 5:19b
so by the obedience [stripes] of one[Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.
If one does not live unto God and righteousness, then Christ did not die for them..
1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
We know that Christ did not die for all men without exception, because by His death [stripes] He heals all those He bare their sins, in order that they should live unto righteousness..
As stated another way by Paul in Rom 5:19b
so by the obedience [stripes] of one[Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.
If one does not live unto God and righteousness, then Christ did not die for them..
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StrivesWithGod
New member
How do you reconcile true freedom with ignorance?
We need content for free choices. If I do not know that Hawaii exists, I will not freely exercise my right to fly there. The gospel involves content requiring mind/will response. The Spirit convinces and convicts, but we receive/reject.
What context/application/e.g. are you thinking of?
beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
Jn 12 :32
32 And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
In this scripture when Christ says He will draw all to Himself after having been lifted up [His death on the cross], He is speaking about the beginning of His Millennial Reign from His Throne of Glory..
After His suffering and dying, He must enter into His Glory Lk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Jesus entered into His Mediatorial Glory, His Throne of Glory after having paid the redeeming price for the sins of all of God's elect.
On this Throne of Glory He mediates His saving benefits to all who are to partake of His Kingdom Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
This is Jesus building His Church, while ruling on the Throne of David, to order it and establish it..
Thats why peter says that He added to the church [or His Kingdom] Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Believers reign with Him as they are instruments in His hand to preach the gospel to draw in the other members of His Church or Kingdom, particularly was this True of the Apostles and Paul..
Jn 12 :32
32 And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
In this scripture when Christ says He will draw all to Himself after having been lifted up [His death on the cross], He is speaking about the beginning of His Millennial Reign from His Throne of Glory..
After His suffering and dying, He must enter into His Glory Lk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Jesus entered into His Mediatorial Glory, His Throne of Glory after having paid the redeeming price for the sins of all of God's elect.
On this Throne of Glory He mediates His saving benefits to all who are to partake of His Kingdom Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
This is Jesus building His Church, while ruling on the Throne of David, to order it and establish it..
Thats why peter says that He added to the church [or His Kingdom] Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Believers reign with Him as they are instruments in His hand to preach the gospel to draw in the other members of His Church or Kingdom, particularly was this True of the Apostles and Paul..
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coulter4president
New member
only logical
only logical
I've read the Bible but dont know where the relevent psgs are that support this.. but Jesus did die for everyone.. "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all [be saved]"
its just that not all people will accept Him... I feel that all who search for truth will find Jesus and all who search for Jesus will find HIs true Church... or die trying... meaning he may die b4 he gets there.. but even though the s aints taught there is no salvation o/side the Church... those who are Catholic "on the inner forum" as someone once put it.. will get to Heaven... (even if they have to go through yrs of Purgatory first and most of us do...Catholic or not)
anyway... i am wondering why you post this thread since you dont claim to be Christian... and some other "wonderings"...
only logical
I've read the Bible but dont know where the relevent psgs are that support this.. but Jesus did die for everyone.. "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all [be saved]"
its just that not all people will accept Him... I feel that all who search for truth will find Jesus and all who search for Jesus will find HIs true Church... or die trying... meaning he may die b4 he gets there.. but even though the s aints taught there is no salvation o/side the Church... those who are Catholic "on the inner forum" as someone once put it.. will get to Heaven... (even if they have to go through yrs of Purgatory first and most of us do...Catholic or not)
anyway... i am wondering why you post this thread since you dont claim to be Christian... and some other "wonderings"...
coulter4president
New member
and do EVERYTHING Jesus said..
many forget that Jesus said in order to be [paraphrase:] good enough to get into Heavne one must "give up his possessions to the poor and follow Him".. i think this is St Mk 10:17??? not sure... maybe its st Lk 10:17??
Jesus also said it was hard to get to Heaven... I've learned the hard way (which some claim is the best way) that this is true...
in other words i've learned from that "greatest" of all teachers, Experience, that this is true... I have been walkng with Jesus and trying to walk with Jesus (mor the latter than the former) for many years... since birth, really... and it is a constant struggle... to do all that He said to do... One of the hardest things for me to do is forgive ppl who do horrendous evil... but i figure praying for them to repent is forgivenes... which i have less a problem with than saying, "I forgive you"
but... uh... don't follow me, follow HIm... :crackup: