ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yeah . . who realized until now, that Knight has produced an anti-Christian, heretical, and Pelagian website of this magnitude, in these modern times?

All in the name of supposed Christian Theology, Open Theism, and Mid Acts Dispensationalism . . .

Well, now we know who TOL endorses and what it is all about.

Nang is blaming Knight like the Liberals blame Russia for EVERYTHING.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

My 2nd cousin's grandchild died of brain cancer last night.
View attachment 25531

My only hope, his only hope
View attachment 25532
John 14:6
Matthew 19:14
Acts 4:12




Colossians 2:13 Ephesians 2:1,5,6 1 Corinthians 15:13-15

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ...

Death is truly wicked! People try to explain it away and make sense of it, but it is the root of all horror in life. My heart goes to you and your family. You are a wonderful servant of God and the only thing I can tell you is what you already know.

I don't speak in my full understanding of grace, most of the time... but... now... I will... this once..

Your 2nd Cousin is sitting on Jesus' lap, as you are reading this, and being reminded that he will be with his mother and father in what seems like "no time" for him, but an eternity for them. Jesus is probably telling him that he'll get to throw that foot ball back and forth with you by the sea of glass one day, and when he's up to it... he'll be quarter backing for the angels as they play the most amazing foot ball games ever seen!

All Love and Heart Felt Prayer,

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

If Knight allows the erroneous teaching of Pelagianism, he supports and encourages that vile and ancient heresy.

Otherwise, he would actively oppose the posting of such anti-Christian rhetoric.

He is either ignorant or compliant . . .

(1 Thes. 2:15; Acts 7:52)

[MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION]

It would be wise you learn dispensationalism, because you remind me of the Jews that persecuted the newly planted Body of Christ Church that was dispensed through Paul.

 

[Eagles Wings]

I wouldn't dream of it. The entire Truth is contained in the Bible. There are too many half truths and falsehoods outside of the Scripture.

Dordt is the document that represents TULIP. TULIP is an acronym that came much later to help describe the five points of Calvinism.

There is no true understanding of TULIP without reading the Canons of Dordt.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Saying you have seen no scripture from me means your eyes are terrible.
You should have them checked.

Ask EW if they have ever "seen" that God is the "Author" and "Defender" of "FreeWill" (choice Josh. 24:15) (John 8:36) ... I'm guessing EW hasn't "seen" that either. (Proverbs 30:5f)

 

[Ktoyou]

Yeah . . who realized until now, that Knight has produced an anti-Christian, heretical, and Pelagian website ...

This is not true and amounts to a slanderous statement. Why post here, if the forum, and its owner, are anti-Christian?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Without a doubt, the heresy of Pelagianism has been proven to the actual basis of the MAD opposition to the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For the sake of Lon and AMR ... I have renounced my ill to Calvinism... So editing in... Lon and AMR... Please forgive me... You are not as Nang... this is for them, alone.... But...

Spoiler

You are of the specific type that would turn the words of the Holy Spirit of Jesus into cookie cutter, one size fits all teachings that restrict His impression upon the ears and hearts of His Sheep.

You lust with your eyes and have Pride in the theological works of men that visibly have rendered you incapable of recognizing a discussion about the bible that is exhilarating and profitable for spiritual growth in Christ.

ONE MORE TIME... Everything you post is UTTERLY WORTHLESS! And... Here's Why! Your Hero... C. H. Spurgeon ... said these things...

"Calvinism IS the Gospel, and nothing else."
(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. I: The Early Years)

"The longer I live, the clearer does it appear that John Calvin's system is the nearest to perfection."
(The Forgotten Spurgeon,by Iain Murray)

"Among all those who have been born of women, there has not risen a greater than John Calvin."
(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. II: The Full Harvest)​

So you whether you want a pleasant punch to your theological Gut or not... here it comes! People here once knew me by the name [MENTION=18263]Nameless.In.Grace[/MENTION]. I spoke of Love to all people... not in the hippie liberal way that is preposterous and retarded, but in the Jesus way that demands we forgive the flesh as we are forgiven! Now I'm unloading on you... you disgusting IDOLATER!

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

See @<a href="http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=7292" target="_blank">Nang</a> ... Carnal thinkers use this scripture to point at a particular group of people... they thrash them as reprobates that are condemned to eternal Hell. Many who believe in the doctrine of REPROBATION are some of the first to use this verse for carnal judgment.... Here's the joke! It's about people that are idolaters in their doctrine. Do you think JESUS CHRIST converted Saul as His gospel emissary to nip what people did behind closed doors in the bud?

The big joke is that it is saying that people who exalt men above our ONLY TEACHER ... (Mathew 23:10) ... are EXCHANGING the Creator for the creation! It is likening people who worship doctrines of men to Men lying with Men. It is likening "Churches" that teach what other churches teach to Women Lying with Women. So........... I'm officially disgusted by your Jew hating, Doctrine Pushing, Human Label Thrusting, Calvin Worshiping, Reprobate Lies!

YOU ... you have exchanged the Creator for the Creation! You, the one who counts on being one of the "puppets on strings" that won the ELECTION LOTTERY are officially pointed out as being under one of the most condemning scriptures Paul ever weaved together upon the SPIRIT's leading! You, who condemn this biblical discussion and insult Knight, are blind to chapter two as well...

Romans 2

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.​

May God help you!

Titus 1:11​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is not true and amounts to a slanderous statement. Why post here, if the forum, and its owner, are anti-Christian?

You handled that way better than I did... apparently we were simultaneously appalled by it.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You've read the Canon of Dordt?

There it is! There's your filthy serpents nest!

Cannons of Dor...ision

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:

PUPPETS on STRINGS!!!

Spoiler

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 8: A Single Decree of Election​

This election is not of many kinds, but one and the same for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God’s will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in.

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:​

Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith​

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of every saving good. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, “He chose us” (not because we were, but) “so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love” (Eph. 1:4).

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 10: Election Based on God’s Good Pleasure​

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve God’s choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as God’s own possession. As Scripture says, “When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad . . . , she (Rebecca) was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’” (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, “All who were appointed for eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 11: Election Unchangeable​

Just as God is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can God’s chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:​

Article 12: The Assurance of Election​

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No, they are the words of Job speaking about himself:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

According to your ideas the Spirit of the LORD gave Job life but it was not a spiritual life! When the Lord Jesus said that "the Spirit gives life" (Jn.6:63) He was obviously speaking of giving Spiritual life.

Obvious to everyone but you and those like you who cling to the fable of Original Sin.

Yep to most of that, Interplanner.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sheesh!

It's about time we agreed on something again.

Or as the late great: Sam Cooke put it - "It's been a long time, a long time a comin...But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will..."

:chuckle:

The sin of Adam was not imputed to us, and we are quite capable of committing our own sin. "The whole race was dying"...those are the kind of comments that have no scriptural support.

Sin entered the world....from that you get sin entered Adam's offspring. Why didn't God mention the little detail of Adam's sin being passed to his offspring when He enumerated the curse that would come upon them as a result of their sin?

Gen. 3:16-19KJV Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Why didn't God say, 'Oh by the way, because you disobeyed me, all your children will be born with the guilt of your sin? Their very nature will be sinful, and they will be born spiritually dead.
They will be evil continually, unable to seek me, and unable to do good.'

Yes, and since the LORD is no respecter of persons (Jas.2:9) he treats all people in the same way. It was not until Adam sinned when he died spiritually and so no one else dies spiritually until they also sin. And in order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually, just like Adam and Eve were before they sinned.

I never said that there was. But you obvious do not understand that the word "corrupt" means going from a good state to a bad state.



It's common sense, something which you lack. When a person is corrupted his condition goes from good to bad. And once corrupted it is impossible to go from good to bad again because the condition is already bad. A person's condition can get worse but he can no longer be corrupted again.

So if a person is born corrupt then it is impossible that he can be corrupted again later. So we can know for certain that no one is born with a corrupt nature because people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

All you do in answer to these facts is to pervert the meaning of the word "corrupt."

Pitiful!

These are the words of Job and not Adam:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

According to your ideas the Spirit of the LORD gave Job life but it was not a spiritual life! When the Lord Jesus said that "the Spirit gives life" (Jn.6:63) He was obviously speaking of giving Spiritual life.

Obvious to everyone but you and those like you who cling to the fable of Original Sin.

Not only that, but we know exactly how they do that. They partake of the lusts of the flesh, the lust of their eyes and the pride of life. Exactly as Adam and Eve did.

When a person is corrupted his condition goes from good to bad. And once corrupted it is impossible to go from good to bad again because the condition is already bad. A person's condition can get worse but he can no longer be corrupted again.

So if a person is born corrupt then it is impossible that he can be corrupted again later. So we can know for certain that no one is born with a corrupt nature because people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

You overlooked this verse which demonstrates that God breathes life into man and His Spirit makes us:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

This happens at conception when one is born of the Spirit. But according to you even though the Spirit of God makes us and gives us life we are born spiritually dead!

Nice one!

Finding that premise all through scripture, aren't we.



Matthew 19:13-14 KJV
(13) Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
(14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Excuse me while I lift this....It's good.

And add from Scripture.

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.​

:wave2:

Ecclesiastes 1:18 KJV
(18) For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Your original sin gives man an excuse. God says otherwise. Notice there is no mention of Adam's sin being inherited by these folks? It's conspicuous by it's absence.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

If I were to relate the sin not unto death to what Paul wrote, which I often do with John's writings, I would say it spoke of those "habits" of the "old man". And that would relate to Adam's nakedness, too, as you pointed out. It was something that needed to be corrected (put off).

Notice, too, the old man is corrupt according to deceitful "lusts", not according to having inherited Adam's sin.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;​

We can play the dot game alone, if need be. :rotfl:

I often think of all the "laws" Moses added. Did any of them lead to more than physical death, as was their right to impose as a nation?

Adam's nakedness had to be a result of an awakened conscience, and perhaps a covering was required to appease that awakened sense of guilt. Quite often this idea that something "makes sense" is a good thing...unlike what some would claim. :chuckle:

Chooooo Chooooo..... Time to stoke the coal fire and get this bad boy back on Track...

 

[Shasta]

I have to ask if you think GOD ever gave Adam His Spirit. Cause here is the scripture Paul is referring to:


Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Adam had to be spiritually alive at some point for him to be able to spiritually die.
Do you see the above scripture as the time Adam became 'spiritually' alive, or is that some other type of 'life'?
And if that is not when Adam became 'spiritually' alive, then when did he?

Thanks.

I agree. The scripture says plainly that Adam was given spiritual life in the day of his creation. We were meant to have a spirit in common with God who is a spirit being as well as the life of the soul which animals possess.

 

[Shasta]

How can "sin," which is immaterial in nature, be passed down to one's descendants?

I suggest that you study transducianism, the theological concept that Nang brought up. It is one of two theories that explains how mankind's immaterial essence can be altered by the Fall. It is one of two ideas both of which have some support in scripture. If you think everyone is born spiritually and morally neutral then you are a Pelagian.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I suggest that you study transducianism, the theological concept that Nang brought up. It is one of two theories that explains how mankind's immaterial essence can be altered by the Fall. It is one of two ideas both of which have some support in scripture. If you think everyone is born spiritually and morally neutral then you are a Pelagian.

I have had ill words towards you, but you have held your peace and contributed to this thread on a continually professional plane. I'm going out of my way to recognize that you are considerate of the topic and though I "loath" theological labels... I understand they have to exist to communicate.

They are also tools to condemn others with and this is why I am so adamant against them... but I confess... I, myself, have resorted to calling labels out to biblically condemn a doctrine many times.

I would rather, and will continue to, search this in scripture and avoid grasping what someone else has written that I can't discuss the topic with... but you worded this exceptionally well.

:thumb:

 

[Shasta]

Both of those verses have always seemed to throw a monkey wrench into the narrative when those sections of scripture are being discussed. Now you toss in that little aside at the bottom. Hmmm....

Romans 5:14 is about death as being a consequence of the Fall which we inherit but do not necessarily earn by our own sins

1 John 5:17 is talking about a judgment that people bring on themselves by their personal sins

I do not see any "monkey wrench" here.

 

[Eagles Wings]

There it is! There's your filthy serpents nest!

Cannons of Dor...ision

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:

PUPPETS on STRINGS!!!

Spoiler

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 8: A Single Decree of Election​

This election is not of many kinds, but one and the same for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God’s will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in.

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:​

Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith​

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of every saving good. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, “He chose us” (not because we were, but) “so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love” (Eph. 1:4).

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 10: Election Based on God’s Good Pleasure​

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve God’s choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as God’s own possession. As Scripture says, “When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad . . . , she (Rebecca) was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’” (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, “All who were appointed for eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:
Article 11: Election Unchangeable​

Just as God is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can God’s chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:​

Article 12: The Assurance of Election​

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

Perhaps you can stop the drama long enough to follow the posting of Glorydaz and I.

She does not like the smell of TULIP, so I asked if she had read the Canons of Dordt. She had not, which I suspected. I then encouraged her and anyone to read the Canons of Dordt to get the full teaching of the five points of Calvinism.

Take it or leave it, the Canons of Dordt is an historic church document

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Perhaps you can stop the drama long enough to follow the posting of Glorydaz and I.

She does not like the smell of TULIP, so I asked if she had read the Canons of Dordt. She had not, which I suspected. I then encouraged her and anyone to read the Canons of Dordt to get the full teaching of the five points of Calvinism.

Take it or leave it, the Canons of Dordt is an historic church document

Perhaps you'll understand why I'm putting you back on ignore. And take it or leave it... they are filthy idols!

 

[Shasta]

Sounds like they are in some kind of LIMBO. But, it's purely conjecture, as are so many things concerning the doctrine of original sin.atrol:

It is not limbo. It is called innocence.

BTW I do not believe in "Original Sin" as it was formulated by Augustine or later by Calvin. The sin nature is not the result of a legal "imputation" in which God transfers the guilt of Adam's sin "to our account." Such a transfer would not be just.

However, neither do I believe human beings are born with spiritual life. It is the absence of the influence of the Holy Spirit that inevitably results in people becoming sinners. If we were all born alive spiritually there would be no need to be born "again." If this were so some people would be perfect because they chose to go from being good boys and girls to good adults. This does not happen. There is a reason why Jesus had to be virgin-born.

The nature of sin is the result of a privation not of any addition to our nature, some "pollution" or sinful "essence." The simple absence of spiritual life is why we need to be "born AGAIN."

Because the first birth gave us only the life of the flesh and soul it is necessary to be born all over again "after the Spirit." Unfortunately this is no longer our birthright. We have to embrace this option by putting our faith in Christ.

 

[Shasta]

I know Paul tells me that those who are in Christ are dead to sin. The very fact that I was created in Him might fit your definition, but I'd still like a quote since I'm being lectured over it.

John, himself, tells us those who commit sin are of the devil, and sin is a violation of the law. Paul tells us whatever is not faith is sin. Well, I live by the faith of the Son of God, so who are you to accuse me of sin? Romans 8:33KJV

1 John 1:7-9 speaks of the process of walking in the light. The Apostle says that this walk brings ongoing forgiveness and cleansing. Such ONGOING cleansing would not be necessary if you were completely sinless. John also says "he that commits sin is of the Devil" The word "commit" means to practice sin as a lifestyle. Saying that there is no point between living in sin and being sinlessly perfect is a false dichotomy and it is not scriptural. If you believe in sinless perfectionism then you should read Wesley.

 

[Right Divider]

Dordt is the document that represents TULIP. TULIP is an acronym that came much later to help describe the five points of Calvinism.

There is no true understanding of TULIP without reading the Canons of Dordt.

All the more reason not to read it.

 

[Shasta]

This is the dumbest post I have ever read...

So... you are suggesting we discount when Jesus said... this... (Matthew 5:44)?!?

Another .... wait ... Gif coming.... For the Nanginator

Instead of mocking and hurling vacuous remarks about Nang's opinions being "dumb" perhaps you should answer her statements with reasoned arguments.