Eagles Wings
New member
I understand, and announcing it in public is arrogant.
Filthy idol - human pride
ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Filthy idol - human pride
Eagles Wings
New member
Have you read the Qur'an?
I will take your correction if you answer 3 questions to my satisfaction and you believe your answer with all of your heart, mind and soul.
What does Eph. 2:8f mean?
Are you more righteous in your flesh than (Insert a person who sins in the flesh in ways that anger you horribly... here)?
How assured are you of your salvation... (Multiple Choice)
A) I'm 100% saved and going to be with Jesus for eternity.
B) I'm not sure.
C) I'm still working it out with God.
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If I multi quote... is there a quick way to release the quotes?
Right Divider
Body part
No, for the same reason.
Shasta
Well-known member
In Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus about the New Birth He said the following:
…5 Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (natural birth) AND the Spirit
(John 3:5).
Water refers to the amniotic fluid which attends the arrival of a human infant at birth. Jesus is saying that it is not enough to be born naturally. One must also be born spiritually. If a person had spiritual life from conception then making this distinction would have been unnecessary.
6 Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…
(John 3:6)
In this verse Jesus says that biological life gives rise to biological (not spiritual) life. In other words, we do not possess spiritual life as a consequence of our natural birth, Instead an entirely new re-birth must take place.
It is not necessary to explain the universality of sin as a by product of our having had Adam's guilt "imputed" to us. This is simply a legal formulation of Augustine's ideas about "essential" corruption of desire. Nothing needs to be added to man to make him eventually (but inevitably) become sinner. Privation of life is a sufficient cause for sin. It is why we must receive a recreated spirit to walk with God. It is why the Holy Spirit must dwell in us and direct us from within. The "carnal mind" is the pattern of behavior that arises naturally in a person who, instead of having God consciousness has only self-consciousness. It also explains why we will not be perfected until the physical organism (the Body of Death) is transformed at the Resurrection.
If mankind already has spiritual life as a consequence of natural birth then it would be possible to go from being a perfect child to being a perfect adult without the need of rebirth. Thus this idea will inevitably end up in Pelagianism. There is only one human who went from being a perfect child to being a perfect adult and that is Jesus but He received spiritual life by virtue of His being conceived by the Holy Spirit and, because the Spirit guided Him He always did that pleased the Father.
…5 Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (natural birth) AND the Spirit
(John 3:5).
Water refers to the amniotic fluid which attends the arrival of a human infant at birth. Jesus is saying that it is not enough to be born naturally. One must also be born spiritually. If a person had spiritual life from conception then making this distinction would have been unnecessary.
6 Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…
(John 3:6)
In this verse Jesus says that biological life gives rise to biological (not spiritual) life. In other words, we do not possess spiritual life as a consequence of our natural birth, Instead an entirely new re-birth must take place.
It is not necessary to explain the universality of sin as a by product of our having had Adam's guilt "imputed" to us. This is simply a legal formulation of Augustine's ideas about "essential" corruption of desire. Nothing needs to be added to man to make him eventually (but inevitably) become sinner. Privation of life is a sufficient cause for sin. It is why we must receive a recreated spirit to walk with God. It is why the Holy Spirit must dwell in us and direct us from within. The "carnal mind" is the pattern of behavior that arises naturally in a person who, instead of having God consciousness has only self-consciousness. It also explains why we will not be perfected until the physical organism (the Body of Death) is transformed at the Resurrection.
If mankind already has spiritual life as a consequence of natural birth then it would be possible to go from being a perfect child to being a perfect adult without the need of rebirth. Thus this idea will inevitably end up in Pelagianism. There is only one human who went from being a perfect child to being a perfect adult and that is Jesus but He received spiritual life by virtue of His being conceived by the Holy Spirit and, because the Spirit guided Him He always did that pleased the Father.
Shasta
Well-known member
I believe the Father revealed the truth about the New Birth to Jesus from the writings of the prophets:
…26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
(Ezekiel 36:27)
Here we see that God must perform "major surgery" to re-birth a person in the Spirit. He removes the old unyielding heart and replace it with one that is soft and submissive. The human spirit is not in need of restoration (to a state of childhood innocence) but re-creation. Second, He says that He will put the Holy Spirit within us. He does not say he would put the Spirit BACK in us because this is an entirely new creative act that would not be possible until Jesus had finished the redemptive work. If every human is born full of the Holy Spirit this would be simply a restoration of the usual state of affairs. The need for such major recreation indicates the seriousness of our condition.
…26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
(Ezekiel 36:27)
Here we see that God must perform "major surgery" to re-birth a person in the Spirit. He removes the old unyielding heart and replace it with one that is soft and submissive. The human spirit is not in need of restoration (to a state of childhood innocence) but re-creation. Second, He says that He will put the Holy Spirit within us. He does not say he would put the Spirit BACK in us because this is an entirely new creative act that would not be possible until Jesus had finished the redemptive work. If every human is born full of the Holy Spirit this would be simply a restoration of the usual state of affairs. The need for such major recreation indicates the seriousness of our condition.
Eagles Wings
New member
No reason given.
Enough said though as I get the gist of where you are coming from.
Off topic anyway.
Anyone wanting to read Reformed documents please see my signature.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is a description of how Adam came into existence:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).
When the LORD breathed into Adam he received the Spirit which is of God and was alive spiritually. And in the following verse we can see that the breath of the LORD also gave the same Spiritual life to Job when he was made by the Spirit of God:
"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).
Are you ready to argue that even though the LORD breathed into Job and he was made by the Spirit that He was born spiritually dead?
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Shasta
Well-known member
A. But I do not need to believe in unconditional eternal security in order to be assured. Some people seem to think that if you do not believe in unconditional eternal security that you believe in eternal insecurity. Well throughout the early centuries of the Church no one believed in a security that was UNCONDITIONAL. Going back to the first century it is obvious that they believed our relationship with God is conditioned upon our remaining true to Him. Even Augustine and Luther more than a thousand years after him believed Christians could apostasize. Calvin is the one who first came up with UES based upon his belief in irresistible grace. Even Jacob Arminias believed in "eternal security"
While I do not believe in an eternal security that is unconditional, I never worry that I will not make it. In the same way, I have no doubt that I will remain faithful to my wife. Of course, since I have a free will I could always commit adultery. If I did so, however, I know how much I would hurt her and how much I would damage our relationship perhaps irreparably and I could not tolerate that. I think it was Clement of Rome who said that we must remain faithful to Christ: "whether out of love for Him or fear of the judgments to come - either way let us be found in Him." Love is the best motive but the fear of God is scriptural too.
I agree with everything you have written up to this point and am wondering if you have said this earlier and I missed it. Why didn't you just say this from the jump? Just kidding... Debate assists in our articulation of words and communication with those we are discussing matters with.
I disagree with your suggesting that mankind can ever be "perfect" or your insinuation that anyone here would ever believe any could be Perfect but God.. God is the standard of perfection, and part of that includes his provisional quality of "Creation". God can literally Create in a fashion that we will never obtain. Also, His very Nature is perfect under "Privation". We fail under privation.
I fully believe that God can limit His foreknowledge for His Divine purpose and though the availability of His TriUne existence. In this... even under "Privation", God could have chosen to step beyond His human flesh as Christ. I believe Satan tried to initiate this while Jesus was being tempted by him. What I am saying, is that God alone is utterly provisional and forever without lack of anything.
Sincere Love to give and receive was the only thing that God lacked... and we can clearly see He has made that need... no longer a "need"... thus proving again that God has everything.
Quite simply... Adam did have Spiritual Life... and this spiritual life was within Eve, as well. When the serpent inserted the idea that Eve was "Deprived" of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil"... She clearly felt a lacking and was triggered to obtain... "What she did not have". Only God is 100% bullet proof to the attack of Deprivation because He alone "Lacks No Thing".
To extend that Jerry, GD, Myself, Tambora or anyone else that is searching scripture to see if we are "born with Spiritual Life" does not and will not lead to Pelagianism.
Not one of us has ever asserted that we can "Be Like God". Only Jesus can and ever will be the "Perfect Human Being"... though I affirm He was fully God and fully man... you understand what I am saying.
You defined Moral Neutrality for man. Even in the context of Spiritual life. This affirms what is being said well. God is no tyrant and would never impose will upon any of His creations. This is the very core of what Free Will is. If God denied us free will and made us Perfect as in "Be Like God" perfect... He would be "Cloning Himself".
This is not the case, as we see Adam consisting of moral neutrality, and Eve as well. To further prove this... Satan clearly was an Angel of sorts and he clearly was "perfect in the morally neutral way that God creates all things...", but he fell and chose wickedness through pride.
This only affirms that there is, was and forever will be only ONE that is truly GOOD. We will be good by His Love and we will have an existence beyond our comprehension... but... we will never, ever "Be Like God."
This is my counter argument to your last paragraph of communication that I disagree with.
Salvational Assurance? This is the one that perplexes me, when all scripture tells us that "Perfect Love" casts out all fear. IOW... Scripture assures us that God keeps God's word and thus... because God "breathed" Eph. 2:8f ... it would foolish to think that God would give us His word that His WORD is sufficient for us.
I'm still not getting why it is so ill to you to assure salvation upon God's Love and Honesty that is PERFECT.
and...
Good answers... But would you kindly answer more directly to the questions in a 1. 2. 3. sort of fashion?
I see the Love motive now, and this changes my view of you for the better, but I will answer the questions very directly in response to what every you state.
1. Exegesis of your understanding
2. Yes or No
3. A, B or C
Please...
Here... I'll Jump...
1} To me... Eph. 2:8f means... Jesus paid my life debt in full and salvation is an absolutely free gift to me, though it cost God "Everything"... and nothing I do (Good or Bad), with the "indwelling" Spirit of Christ (Rm. 8:9 Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13) within me... can take that "gift" away from me ... it utterly depends on Jesus and the only thing I contribute to it is my "Belief" and the dead works of my flesh that make me utterly dependent and in need for God's "gift" of Love, every second of the day (These works -Good or Bad- are not contributions, but instead... affirmations of my need for Him).
I Believe in His DBR for all humanity and thus... I'm Saved!
2) No
3) A
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click multi quote and then text between the quoted posts. Like this
Agree
thanks
We have a "new spirit" and infact... THEE Spirit within us... and we are not perfect. Pelagianism suggests that mankind can ultimately "Be Like God".
It is inaccurate and this is not what is being argued.
You were okay at moral neutrality and free will, but only God is Good. He said so Himself.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Neither Augustine nor Calvin taught that the imputation of guilt upon the offspring of Adam resulted in the corruption of the human nature. The corruption of the human nature caused by Adam's original sin of disobedience, triggered the imputation of guilt and sentence.
Agreed . . as legal imputation of righteousness and promise of everlasting life would not be just when rendered to sinners apart from the obedience and cross work of Jesus Christ.
The first Adam produced the grounds for legal imputation of guilt and death sentence. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, produced the grounds for legal imputation of righteousness and everlasting life.
This is why comprehension of the Federal Headship of both Adams is vital to understanding the justice of God in both instances.
Agreed.
Indeed. I would be interested if you would expand on this truth.
Agreed, although being Reformed, I do not believe regeneration is optional. This miracle of resurrection can only be willed and performed by the Holy Spirit. It is God's option as to whom He bestows His Spirit.
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
I Corinthians 15:42-50 is helpful in this regard.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
God breathed human spirit and life into Adam; not the Holy Spirit.
Animals were given animal spirit and life and breathe, too. That is not the Holy Spirit.