Both of those verses have always seemed to throw a monkey wrench into the narrative when those sections of scripture are being discussed. Now you toss in that little aside at the bottom. Hmmm....
With the premise that not all sin is sin unto death (1 John 5:17), we then have to confront 'the wages of sin is death'.
The 1 John verse seems to imply that there is sin that does NOT demand the payment of death. (ie. not all sin leads to death).
The same premise is expressed in the law of Moses. Not all crimes against the law demanded a death penalty (the physical death of the person committing the crime).
And this might be a good time to bring in the law about things of nature that are out of our control, but still needed to be physically corrected, so to speak.
uncircumcision of males - needed circumcism ritual
menstrual cycle of females - needed purification ritual
Comparable to Adam & Eve's nakedness? It didn't lead to death, but it did need correcting.
But here's the deal .................. it didn't need correcting until after their eyes were opened to knowledge of both good and evil.
I don't think any man thought their un-circumcision (which was out of their control since they were born that way) needed fixing through a ritual till the law came along and told them it did.
Of course, it was only the males of Israel and those that wanted to join Israel that were commanded to do so. So it was not a command to all of mankind, but only the many that had been given knowledge of the law.
BTW, I'm loving this conversation even if the rest have not figured out where we are going to end up!
:cheers:
With the premise that not all sin is sin unto death (1 John 5:17), we then have to confront 'the wages of sin is death'.
The 1 John verse seems to imply that there is sin that does NOT demand the payment of death. (ie. not all sin leads to death).
The same premise is expressed in the law of Moses. Not all crimes against the law demanded a death penalty (the physical death of the person committing the crime).
And this might be a good time to bring in the law about things of nature that are out of our control, but still needed to be physically corrected, so to speak.
uncircumcision of males - needed circumcism ritual
menstrual cycle of females - needed purification ritual
Comparable to Adam & Eve's nakedness? It didn't lead to death, but it did need correcting.
But here's the deal .................. it didn't need correcting until after their eyes were opened to knowledge of both good and evil.
I don't think any man thought their un-circumcision (which was out of their control since they were born that way) needed fixing through a ritual till the law came along and told them it did.
Of course, it was only the males of Israel and those that wanted to join Israel that were commanded to do so. So it was not a command to all of mankind, but only the many that had been given knowledge of the law.
BTW, I'm loving this conversation even if the rest have not figured out where we are going to end up!
:cheers:
I'll drop a personal note of my theological pondering that your words sparked... I fully believe that God designed a Free Will universe and architecturally accounted for all possibilities. I ponder that God had wanted to raise humanity as His children. He desired to peacefully guide us as a Father guides his children.
I link this understanding to the Good Shepherd and His Sheep. He was/is our Good Shepherd and a wicked "shepherd" stole his children away by subverting their will through deceit.
Humanity collective tends to portray God as an unloving, unmerciful Master of Cruelty and Oppression. I think this is actually a picture of the "father/shepherd of the world"... (John 8:44)
I know Paul tells me that those who are in Christ are dead to sin. The very fact that I was created in Him might fit your definition, but I'd still like a quote since I'm being lectured over it.
John, himself, tells us those who commit sin are of the devil, and sin is a violation of the law. Paul tells us whatever is not faith is sin. Well, I live by the faith of the Son of God, so who are you to accuse me of sin? Romans 8:33KJV
Adam was created in the image and likeness of the Eternal Almighty. After the fall Adam lived 130 years and then begat Seth, in the image and likeness of himself, corrupt. Genesis 5:3 kjv Adam had many other children, but Seth is named because he is next in the line that leads to Messiah.
You do realize that the measure of what is and is not sin is the Image of Christ. He alone obeyed completely continuously and perfectly expressed the divine nature. By claiming to be without any sin you are claiming to be exactly like Jesus. It is also a denial of scriptures like 1 John 1:8. The Gnostics used to say they had no sin too.
The grace shift... We sin and we spiritually die. We "see the Face of God" (John 6:46 ... Heb. 1:3 and Ex. 33:18) and we die... We are now ... (Rm. 6:11)... and this means that we the sinners are... (2 Co. 5:21) ...
So yes... we are all Zombie Sinners in Christ. We are only counted alive by His Spirit, within us.
In even dicier verbiage... I can call Jesus my "Works"..., but if you ask me if I still sin... I am bound to respond with (1 John 1:8 and James 5:16)
You are aware that [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] has a thread on this.. right?
With the premise that not all sin is sin unto death (1 John 5:17), we then have to confront 'the wages of sin is death'.
The 1 John verse seems to imply that there is sin that does NOT demand the payment of death. (ie. not all sin leads to death).
You are way off track here. I believe this verse teaches we (the church) are not to pray for any committing the unforgiveable sin. (Matthew 12:31) Otherwise, we are to pray for all others, because by the grace of God, any sinner we know may be saved by the grace of God tomorrow.
The same premise is expressed in the law of Moses. Not all crimes against the law demanded a death penalty (the physical death of the person committing the crime).
Not all crimes are capital crimes. That is all that means.
And no sinner is ever saved by following the laws of nature. The natural laws that man knows universally, always and only condemn. Even though a native in the jungle has never learned the 10 commandments, he has a consciousness of right and wrong (thanks to Adam eating of the Tree of Knowledge) and that amount of conscience condemns him in the eyes of God. Why? Because even natives in the jungle are sinners and living under God's Laws.
No person ever born, lived/lives apart from God's Law. So no sinner has any excuse for wronging their Creator. Romans 1:19-20
If the flesh is born "Alive" in the Spirit... and it is a union of God and Human Flesh... it becomes Super Duper Divine and Unique.... Plus... I addressed this bull business way back and Jerry and Glorydaz affirmed the defense...
Contained in the Immanuel prophecy is a compliment to what you are saying... it rolls into end times material, as well... but it emphasizes the age of accountability in Christ... As God is utterly sinless, we know He was on point... even before the age of accountability... but I bolded it and colored it.
Isaiah 7...
10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!”
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good,
Spoiler
the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
18 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will whistle for the fly
That is in the farthest part of the rivers of Egypt,
And for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
19 They will come, and all of them will rest
In the desolate valleys and in the clefts of the rocks,
And on all thorns and in all pastures.
20 In the same day the Lord will shave with a hired razor,
With those from beyond the River,[c] with the king of Assyria,
The head and the hair of the legs,
And will also remove the beard.
21 It shall be in that day
That a man will keep alive a young cow and two sheep;
22 So it shall be, from the abundance of milk they give,
That he will eat curds;
For curds and honey everyone will eat who is left in the land.
23 It shall happen in that day,
That wherever there could be a thousand vines
Worth a thousand shekels of silver,
It will be for briers and thorns.
24 With arrows and bows men will come there,
Because all the land will become briers and thorns.
25 And to any hill which could be dug with the hoe,
You will not go there for fear of briers and thorns;
But it will become a range for oxen
And a place for sheep to roam.
I think there is a misunderstanding on the biblically restricted through teachings of men's side.
There are three major issues that they are appearing concerned about.
1: They believe that our discussion is suggesting that we can be righteous like Jesus. I am certain that we of this open discussion are suggesting no such thing. We all sin and have sinned, yet only by Jesus are we saved.
2: They believe that the nature of Christ being discussed is in contradiction to these two scriptures... Heb. 4:15 ... and Rm. 8:3 ... people in other words... need to be assured that we know Christ had no sin... and we know that no man is without guilt of mosaic Law imputed sin, but Jesus... and He is the Only of humanity that is perfect... because He is God and always has been... yet some are misunderstanding...
3: Some are calling this "sinless" doctrine... when we perpetually are stating that only God is without imperfection... thus all humanity fails and Spiritually dies as Adam did... cementing our collective need for Jesus. We are simply stating that we are not born Spiritually dead... it is that all transgress but One. God!
Would this be accurate to iterate, from your perspective Jerry... thus far?
You will see that GD and JS liked it and validated it...
So... I saw your whining coming a mile away.
Yup... :turbo:
Oh, BTdubbs... most of Isaiah 7 is about future events concerning Israel and the "kings" that align against her... but... you don't know nothing about that Zionist Schwagger do you?
Too Bad, so vewy saddddddd.
Ps... This is you... (the biblically restricted through teachings of men's side.)
He was certainly unique, but He took on the form of man, and was sinless because He refused to sin. He did that for us. He came to die so that we could have life. Don't belittle the suffering it took to resist those lusts that the rest of us too readily succumb to.
He was certainly unique, but He took on the form of man, and was sinless because He refused to sin. He did that for us. He came to die so that we could have life. Don't belittle the suffering it took to resist those lusts that the rest of us too readily succumb to.
You are way off track here. I believe this verse teaches we (the church) are not to pray for any committing the unforgiveable sin. (Matthew 12:31) Otherwise, we are to pray for all others, because by the grace of God, any sinner we know may be saved by the grace of God tomorrow.
Not all crimes are capital crimes. That is all that means.
And no sinner is ever saved by following the laws of nature. The natural laws that man knows universally, always and only condemn. Even though a native in the jungle has never learned the 10 commandments, he has a consciousness of right and wrong (thanks to Adam eating of the Tree of Knowledge) and that amount of conscience condemns him in the eyes of God. Why? Because even natives in the jungle are sinners and living under God's Laws.
No person ever born, lived/lives apart from God's Law. So no sinner has any excuse for wronging their Creator. Romans 1:19-20
There is nothing weak about it. Are not those referred to are those who are supposedly born corrupt?
According to those who support the myth of Original Sin all men are born corrupt. So there is no disconnect just because the verse is speaking of men in OT times.
And we can see that men corrupt themselves so no one is born corrupt.
I'll drop a personal note of my theological pondering that your words sparked... I fully believe that God designed a Free Will universe and architecturally accounted for all possibilities. I ponder that God had wanted to raise humanity as His children. He desired to peacefully guide us as a Father guides his children.
I link this understanding to the Good Shepherd and His Sheep. He was/is our Good Shepherd and a wicked "shepherd" stole his children away by subverting their will through deceit.
Humanity collective tends to portray God as an unloving, unmerciful Master of Cruelty and Oppression. I think this is actually a picture of the "father/shepherd of the world"... (John 8:44)
Not sure you are on the same trail as GD and I are on at the moment.
We were gathering scriptural evidence of the premise that it is not justice to penalize a person for a crime when they have no knowledge between right and wrong. (like babies and the mentally handicapped)
Even our own fleshly earth laws know that is not just.
One could almost say 'ignorance is bliss'.
Adam lived a pretty blissful life till he received the knowledge of his nakedness.
Blissful ignorance ---- no shame and no death. Knowledge ---- shame and death.
Jeremiah 3:16 KJV
(16) And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant [which held the law]of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
With the premise that not all sin is sin unto death (1 John 5:17), we then have to confront 'the wages of sin is death'.
The 1 John verse seems to imply that there is sin that does NOT demand the payment of death. (ie. not all sin leads to death).
If I were to relate the sin not unto death to what Paul wrote, which I often do with John's writings, I would say it spoke of those "habits" of the "old man". And that would relate to Adam's nakedness, too, as you pointed out. It was something that needed to be corrected (put off).
Notice, too, the old man is corrupt according to deceitful "lusts", not according to having inherited Adam's sin.
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Comparable to Adam & Eve's nakedness? It didn't lead to death, but it did need correcting.
But here's the deal .................. it didn't need correcting until after their eyes were opened to knowledge of both good and evil.
BTW, I'm loving this conversation even if the rest have not figured out where we are going to end up!
:cheers:
We can play the dot game alone, if need be. :rotfl:
I often think of all the "laws" Moses added. Did any of them lead to more than physical death, as was their right to impose as a nation?
Adam's nakedness had to be a result of an awakened conscience, and perhaps a covering was required to appease that awakened sense of guilt. Quite often this idea that something "makes sense" is a good thing...unlike what some would claim. :chuckle:
Not sure you are on the same trail as GD and I are on at the moment.
We were gathering scriptural evidence of the premise that it is not justice to penalize a person for a crime when they have no knowledge between right and wrong. (like babies and the mentally handicapped)
Even our own fleshly earth laws know that is not just.
One could almost say 'ignorance is bliss'.
Adam lived a pretty blissful life till he received the knowledge of his nakedness.
Blissful ignorance ---- no shame and no death. Knowledge ---- shame and death.
Jeremiah 3:16 KJV
(16) And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant [which held the law]of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
That sounds right... I was simply sharing how that ties into my personal, speculative thoughts on the matter. My idea was worthless from a scriptural perspective... but in creating us in ignorant bliss, it seems that God was setting up to raise us as His children in His Loving way. He was desiring to be our "God Father" and Lovingly guide us perfectly while protecting our free Will identity.
However... now I am on point and appreciate the discussion guidance.
The verse that says wisdom brings much sorrow comes immediately to mind.
Your original sin gives man an excuse. God says otherwise. Notice there is no mention of Adam's sin being inherited by these folks? It's conspicuous by it's absence.
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Your original sin gives man an excuse. God says otherwise. Notice there is no mention of Adam's sin being inherited by these folks? It's conspicuous by it's absence.
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
