The Jesus Club

C

clefty

New member
daqq said:
Read the context: I spoke of your mocking the Teachings of the Master, (as well as those of us quoting those teachings and passages), and you quoted a passage where Eliyahu is mocking the worshipers of Baal.
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The Master wasn’t teaching about the after life but used a popular story to illustrate the irony of an unforgiving unrepentant rich man at the bottom and a poor beggar Lazarus full of sores ending up on top...the lesson was that even the Pharisees who were so haughty and mighty and ate plenty gave no food to the poor Lazarus who the people obviously sided with...unforgiving and holding back “the food” was exactly what the pharisees were doing...

the new lesson was that is was better for the offender to be thrown into the sea NOT HELL FIRE for not forgiving or repenting his offensees and in this case NOT FORGIVING the little ones...like poor Lazarus...this new lesson ended if one sins against you seven times a day and seven times a day returns to ask forgiveness (UNLIKE THE RICH MAN ENDING UP ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE DITCH)well then “you should forgive him”.

There that is the lesson the Master wished to teach by way of a popular folk tale (which I do not mock or scoff)...and it is certainly NOT a documentary on the afterlife of Abraham’s role in assuring justice through torment
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
meshak said:
I don't know any Christian who believes we have to work to earn salvation.

It is tragedy that your friend believed it.
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It is surprisingly common among my Christian friends.

Most seem to placate themselves by giving tithes and offerings, and doing a few legalistic things which seems to make them feel better. The problem with this person was that it only made him feel better for a while, and then he was driven to do more.... and more... and more.... like a hamster on a wheel spinning faster and faster out of control.
 
meshak

meshak

BANNED
Banned
I don't see anyone who believe you have to work to earn salvation.

Jesus' standard is perfection.

But you should not make it as excuse to dismiss Jesus' teachings.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
meshak said:
So you don't believe King David understood the death?
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meshak said:
Aren't you mocking about the soul sleep?

King David thought he will sleep when he leave this world like his son did.
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Aren't you ignoring the question that I asked you first? You clearly saw the question because you responded to the second part of those two posts. Do you not think it is hypocritical to ignore my question to you and then expect me to answer your questions? Moreover I already answered concerning king David to Iouae a few pages back: but he is beginning to repeat the same things over again now, and apparently wants to pretend like I did not answer him. Ask him what I said; he should know where and when I answered, since it is his thread.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
meshak said:
King David thought he will sleep when he leave this world like his son did.
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No, he didn't. He said when he died, he would go to where his son was. No soul sleep there.

2 Sam. 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.​
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
meshak said:
Nope.

They try to be obedient to Jesus' teachings but they don't tell people we have to work to earn salvation.

It your assumption, like you assume I believe that too.

You are falsely witnessing.
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Earn, just another way of saying you must work to KEEP your salvation. Which is why when I ask are you saved, you say?
 
meshak

meshak

BANNED
Banned
drbrumley said:
Earn, just another way of saying you must work to KEEP your salvation. Which is why when I ask are you saved, you say?
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The same thing.

I don't claim I am saved because it is not my call.

I don't have audacity to usurp His authority to judge. God for bid.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
meshak said:
which denomination?
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I don't want to throw any denomination under the bus by naming them.

But they don't sing "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so".

It's not JW's or SDA's.

My mentor, the person who teaches me much of the time, believes that Jesus' standard is super high, and that only those who meet a certain (undefined) standard of perfection and works, will be saved. And I have not met a person who's views on religion I respect more. And even he does not believe he meets those expectations. And because the bar is so high in his mind, I feel he is almost discouraged from trying to measure up to it. It almost encourages giving up. I tell him, a Father loves his son - the son does not have to measure up every day for the Father to still call him "son" at the end of the day.
 
C

clefty

New member
iouae said:
Thanks for the kind words Clefty and Meshak.

I hesitated to bring my real world to this forum, but then thought that if there is something that can be learned from this terrible situation, then maybe his death might not be totally in vain.

Wrong theology can kill. I believe he felt he needed to WORK to earn Jesus' love. By contrast, I believe by virtue of being God's child, He loves me, so I feel no inadequacy on that score.

This person worked. But how much working for Jesus is enough? We cannot work to earn salvation or even earn God's love. On the other hand, God wants His servants to be profitable.

God loves us, but due to our upbringing or wrong ways of thinking, we may not understand unconditional love.
God love us, and so we work to please Him. Any and all work is pleasing to Him. But God loves His sheep even when they do nothing but munch grass and grow fat. That's my attitude. I love my cat, even if, objectively, he is not a great cat, eats me out of house and home, and does not catch moles.

It is not, we work so as to get God to love us, because then we never know when we have worked enough.
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HalleluYah that you shared this time with us here...may He lead and guide and comfort...and using us...

Martin Luther desired to rid his church of the corruption extortion and exploitation it practiced by works it had created for its faithful to do.

Indulgences were merely a symptomatic result of a deeper evil...the fear of and angry God eager to throw someone into a hell full of eternal fire...you are NOT worthy...GUILTY etc...never good enough...unless you play by the church’s rules of course...bad theology indeed...but beneficial to the church

In his desire to free himself from this killer theology Luther swung into the other side of the road and into the other ditch of FAITH ALONE...as if there were not works prepared by Him for us to not only do to teach ourselves more of Him His Way but witness to others...indeed we wear HIS YOKE no other and certainly not yokeless... as if His Law is abolished...lawlessness...

Ok...so well again...May He lead and comfort...

Luther:

I don’t share the opinion that suicides are certainly to be damned. My reason is that they do not wish to kill themselves but are overcome by the power of the devil. They are like a man who is murdered in the woods by a robber. However, this ought not be taught to the common people, lest Satan be given an opportunity to cause slaughter, and I recommend that the popular custom be strictly adhered to according to which it [the suicide’s corpse] is not carried over the threshold, etc. Such persons do not die by free choice or by law, but our Lord God will dispatch them as he executes a person through a robber. Magistrates should treat them quite strictly, although it is not plain that their souls are damned. However, they are examples by which our Lord God wishes to show that the devil is powerful and also that we should be diligent in prayer. But for these examples, we would not fear God. Hence he must teach us in this way.

Maybe a good thread...and for grieving
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
clefty said:
The Master wasn’t teaching about the after life but used a popular story to illustrate the irony of an unforgiving unrepentant rich man at the bottom and a poor beggar Lazarus full of sores ending up on top...the lesson was that even the Pharisees who were so haughty and mighty and ate plenty gave no food to the poor Lazarus who the people obviously sided with...unforgiving and holding back “the food” was exactly what the pharisees were doing...

the new lesson was that is was better for the offender to be thrown into the sea NOT HELL FIRE for not forgiving or repenting his offensees and in this case NOT FORGIVING the little ones...like poor Lazarus...this new lesson ended if one sins against you seven times a day and seven times a day returns to ask forgiveness (UNLIKE THE RICH MAN ENDING UP ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE DITCH)well then “you should forgive him”.

There that is the lesson the Master wished to teach by way of a popular folk tale (which I do not mock or scoff)...and it is certainly NOT a documentary on the afterlife of Abraham’s role in assuring justice through torment
Click to expand...

When I tried to talk with you about this discourse it was apparently not even possible for you to understand that it does not end where you think it does just because you see a chapter break: and for that you accused me of adding to the passage because it did not fit your mindset, all the while mocking and not wanting to hear anything. The parable is not about the Pharisees at all, but the Sadducees, because in the perspective from which you speak, (and there is more than one perspective as well as many more than one point, despite what Iouae says), it speaks of Ananus and his sons, who were priests and of the sect of the Sadducees. Moreover Lazarus is the Hellenistic transliteration for Eleazar, for all intents and purposes they are the same name: Lazarus = Eleazar. Without this background you cannot possibly understand the discourse because you cannot see the plain surface message so as to understand the supernal which lies beneath. Lazarus is "Simon the Leper" and one of the disciples, even a Kohen. Ananus ben Seth had six sons including Caiaphas his son-in-law, (that's seven heads, O man, lol). As for the fuller meaning, (mortification just as Paul likewise teaches), I already tried to show you and you scoffed. However you just got through trying to tell me that you have already accomplished those things and found your soul. :chuckle:
 
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