The Jesus Club

[iouae]

Now you are really getting into some freaky stuff: does that river of lava include the "incorrigibly wicked" Buddhist from your OP? And what if he is not quite "incorrigibly wicked" enough? what happens to him then? scalding hot water instead of lava? And do you not suppose you might have defrauded him of the opportunity to make a truly informed choice by this omission? Or are you just making things up as the thread progresses? For some reason I cannot seem to remember this river of lava consuming resurrected mortal bodies anywhere in your OP, and by the way, that sounds really angry, vengeful, and pointless: why would God even need to do such a thing? The only thing that needs to be said is, "Depart from me, I never knew you", (and in this Club it will not be said by the bouncer at the door because the Master himself is the Door, lol).

Ezekiel 37 says...
Eze 37:1
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

For ancient Israelites who never knew God, they will be resurrected back into a mortal flesh and blood body, and given a chance to know the Lord.

Likewise the inhabitants of Nineveh will be resurrected in like manner, in flesh bodies and given their chance to know the Lord.
Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Likewise the folks of Sodom, Tyre and Sidon will be resurrected, given flesh bodies, and will have a chance to hear the Lord.

Luk 10:12
But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luk 10:13
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
Luk 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

But the people of Capernahum, Chorazin, Bethsaida - cities where Christ preached WILL NOT be resurrected and given a chance to know the Lord, since they had their chance when Jhrist walked the earth and preached to them.

Thus it will be more tolerable for the Gentile cities than many Israelite cities who rejected Christ.

When does the Ezek 37 dry bones resurrection occur?

I am not sure, except that it occurs some time after the return of Christ.
It may occur after the Millennium.
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If all this is strange to your ears, then I am sure you will find some sect which preaches the same and say I belong to them too. It only sounds strange to you, because mainstream Christianity came out of the Reformation, but retained so much Catholic belief. So y'all are closet Catholics, who need to complete the Reformation and move on from ye olde Catholic doctrines.

 

[iouae]

Why would Paul have a DESIRE to DEPART if he was just going to be unconscious? :chew:

Do you think sleeping in death and waking up the next moment of consciousness to be with the Lord is not something to look forward to?

That moment of unconsciousness is nothing compared to eternity.

 

[iouae]

I am not saying that beasts do not have "neshemah," only that it is not God-breathed, or "chay" as an adjective preceding "neshemah."

Man was a special creation, whereas the animals were made en masse.

God breathed breath into the corpse He had created out of dust, and just as CPR (Cardiopulmonary resuscitation) brings a body to life, so God brought Adam to life.

Nothing special here in the type of breath.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you think sleeping in death and waking up the next moment of consciousness to be with the Lord is not something to look forward to?

That moment of unconsciousness is nothing compared to eternity.

What I think isn't what matters, is it?
What sounds good to me, or you, doesn't count for a hill of beans.

We are given the truth in Scripture, and it's up to us to search for the TRUTH.

I desire, as Paul said, to DEPART this body of flesh and be with the Lord.

I'm thankful that I don't have to WAIT in the place of the dead (no matter how pleasant it might be to wait with Father Abraham), but, because our Lord raised from the dead, I can now go immediately to be with Him.

 

[daqq]

Do you think sleeping in death and waking up the next moment of consciousness to be with the Lord is not something to look forward to?

That moment of unconsciousness is nothing compared to eternity.

I see Meshak thanked this post of yours, and that's great, and that is why I chose to respond to it, (because I was going to ask her this same question in her new immortal soul thread but she already closed it). If you, Meshak, and Clefty, and anyone else who believes in soul sleep, believe that you have ETERNAL LIFE in Messiah then when exactly did you receive it according to your understanding of the scripture? And if you assume yourselves to already have ETERNAL LIFE then how is it you all think you are going to SLEEP when you DIE seeing that you supposedly have ETERNAL LIFE in Messiah? Do none of you see the contradiction in these very simple and easy to understand terms such as LIFE, LIVING, ETERNAL, as opposed to DIE, DEATH, SLEEP, and DEAD?

 

[clefty]

jsanford108- “Let us also keep in mind traditional Judaic beliefs, which was relative to their time: "souls" did not immediately ascend to heaven, nor to hell. Yet, immediately post-Christ, Christians are proclaiming that this is the case. So, what is the difference? Again, the idea that souls did indeed "sleep" until Christ came, for they could have no inheritance with God without Jesus. However, once Christ rose, He took the souls who He witnessed to (and who believed) in His three days with Him to Heaven.Thus, allowing for future souls to avoid "sleep," be judged, and ascend to their inheritance. This would account for the multitude in heaven. It would account for the various quotes of "spirit" and "soul" by the NT authors.

oh my...three days of what?

so He lied to Mary when He said He hadn’t ascended yet? Or was He just leaving then with the all those souls...

Going from pre resurrection custom tradition and teaching to what it is now is quite different...I would think there would be more concise and clear teaching on something of such important matter it changing like that...immediately post christ even as you claim

 

[daqq]

Silly me, I just went back to the main page and see Meshak has opened up her immortal soul thread again. I guess it was only sleeping because it suddenly appears resurrected.

 

[clefty]

First, did you notice that the soul can be destroyed?

yes they always seem to miss that...

And hell of course is forever burning and conscious and aware and mindful and well forever...burning just below the surface of the new heaven and the new earth...and we can talk to each other over a gulf and remind them why they are there...

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by iouae
First, did you notice that the soul can be destroyed?

yes they always seem to miss that...

And hell of course is forever burning and conscious and aware and mindful and well forever...burning just below the surface of the new heaven and the new earth...and we can talk to each other over a gulf and remind them why they are there...

And what is it that the both of you miss? Is it not the fact that the Master says you need to take up your own stake and destroy your soul now for the sake of his name if you want to find it? Have you found your soul yet? If you seek to save it you will lose it, O sleepers. :chuckle:

 

[clefty]

I have no clue what JW's believe, but if they say what I am saying then good for them.

LOL it is always the personal attack with these inquisitors...Rome accused the first century church of exactly that...being a superstitious jewish cult...LOL

Man and his traditions...

 

[meshak]

Silly me, I just went back to the main page and see Meshak has opened up her immortal soul thread again. I guess it was only sleeping because it suddenly appears resurrected.

I never closed it.

 

[iouae]

I see Meshak thanked this post of yours, and that's great, and that is why I chose to respond to it, (because I was going to ask her this same question in her new immortal soul thread but she already closed it). If you, Meshak, and Clefty, and anyone else who believes in soul sleep, believe that you have ETERNAL LIFE in Messiah then when exactly did you receive it according to your understanding of the scripture? And if you assume yourselves to already have ETERNAL LIFE then how is it you all think you are going to SLEEP when you DIE seeing that you supposedly have ETERNAL LIFE in Messiah? Do none of you see the contradiction in these very simple and easy to understand terms such as LIFE, LIVING, ETERNAL, as opposed to DIE, DEATH, SLEEP, and DEAD?

Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:

David does not mind waiting.

Job 14:14
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job does not mind waiting till his change comes.

Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel does not mind resting now and standing up in his allotted time at the end of days.

Heb 11:39
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

All the folks of faith mentioned in Heb 11 don't mind waiting so that without us they are not yet made perfect.

1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump the dead SHALL BE RAISED - clearly showing that they are not yet raised from the dead.

When did they get eternal life? They have the promise of it in their earthly walk (the ernest) and they cash in this ernest and receive full payment of eternal life, in the resurrection, at the last trump.

 

[iouae]

I never closed it.

Is there a way to close a thread, because I might just close this one

 

[iouae]

yes they always seem to miss that...

And hell of course is forever burning and conscious and aware and mindful and well forever...burning just below the surface of the new heaven and the new earth...and we can talk to each other over a gulf and remind them why they are there...

Thank God, I believe in a hell a lot hotter than theirs which actually burns the incorrigibly wicked UP instead of slow roasting them forever. What a merciful God.

So how wonderful that we are not going to be reminding them why they are there, or reminiscing about the "good old days" when we thought we could get away with sin.

 

[clefty]

Man was a special creation, whereas the animals were made en masse.

God breathed breath into the corpse He had created out of dust, and just as CPR (Cardiopulmonary resuscitation) brings a body to life, so God brought Adam to life.

Nothing special here in the type of breath.

He also breathed on the disciples...

 

[iouae]

If you are saying there is anything immortal about us that "survives" our first death then ... no ... Bible does not teach this. One is either mortal or immortal, one can not be both.

Bible teaches we are not immortal and do not become immortal until we are resurrected, then we are changed. And yes, in that context ... John 3 16 applies, after reserrection we received eternal/immortal life. A "soul" is what you are ... a being .... a person.

1 Corinthians 15

50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The dead are resurrected .... those alive at the time are translated/transformed.

John 5

28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good (1st reserrection) to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil (2nd reserrection) to the resurrection of judgment.

Genesis 46:26

King James Bible

All the souls (people) that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;

Exodus 1:5

King James Bible

And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

This has relevance here too. Thanks Eleos.

 

[clefty]

Thank God, I believe in a hell a lot hotter than theirs which actually burns the incorrigibly wicked UP instead of slow roasting them forever. What a merciful God.

So how wonderful that we are not going to be reminding them why they are there, or reminiscing about the "good old days" when we thought we could get away with sin.

This teaching He took them to heaven and made it possible for immediate access is really setting up an apartheid state in the Heavenly kingdom...one class of people wished to keep the law after being saved and when they died they waited...milling about shuffling their feet wondering what’s taking so long if they were already forgiven and chosen and stuff...the other class of people higher class I guess DONT have to keep the law dont wish to and when dead just fly in...and then turn around and watch others they love succeed or fail...nice

 

[clefty]

Thank God, I believe in a hell a lot hotter than theirs which actually burns the incorrigibly wicked UP instead of slow roasting them forever. What a merciful God.

So how wonderful that we are not going to be reminding them why they are there, or reminiscing about the "good old days" when we thought we could get away with sin.

Imagine a solid steel ball the size of the earth and pigeon flying by brushing its wing on it once every 1000 years...

by the time that steel ball is worn down to the size of a BB by the pigeon’s wing it will have been the first second of eternity in burning tormenting hell...screams of anguish and cries of despair... all for a choices made in around 70 years of existence under extreme duress...

Now come let us reason...

 

[daqq]

I never closed it.

My bad, I guess it was the other thread you closed earlier?

Ezekiel 37 says...
Eze 37:1
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

For ancient Israelites who never knew God, they will be resurrected back into a mortal flesh and blood body, and given a chance to know the Lord.

Likewise the inhabitants of Nineveh will be resurrected in like manner, in flesh bodies and given their chance to know the Lord.
Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Likewise the folks of Sodom, Tyre and Sidon will be resurrected, given flesh bodies, and will have a chance to hear the Lord.

Luk 10:12
But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luk 10:13
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
Luk 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

But the people of Capernahum, Chorazin, Bethsaida - cities where Christ preached WILL NOT be resurrected and given a chance to know the Lord, since they had their chance when Jhrist walked the earth and preached to them.

Thus it will be more tolerable for the Gentile cities than many Israelite cities who rejected Christ.

When does the Ezek 37 dry bones resurrection occur?

I am not sure, except that it occurs some time after the return of Christ.
It may occur after the Millennium.
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If all this is strange to your ears, then I am sure you will find some sect which preaches the same and say I belong to them too. It only sounds strange to you, because mainstream Christianity came out of the Reformation, but retained so much Catholic belief. So y'all are closet Catholics, who need to complete the Reformation and move on from ye olde Catholic doctrines.

Doesn't it seem hypocritical to you that you and Clefty say the Transfiguration could not have been literal because it was said to be a vision and yet you take this vision from Ezekiel and make it totally physically literal? And what's worse you add a river of lava engulfing resurrected mortal bodies, (an oxymoronic statement of utter buffoonery), resurrected for nothing other than that purpose: to be engulfed in your idea of a fiery pyroclastic river of vengeance. :chuckle:

Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:

David does not mind waiting.

His wait was over in Matthew 27:52-53 as previously stated.
Moreover your translation is has a critical error for adding to the text:

Acts 2:34a
34a ου γαρ δαυιδ ανεβη εις τους ουρανους λεγει δε αυτος ειπεν
34a For not David ascended into the heavens, but he himself says,

It is not saying that David is not in heaven but rather that he himself says that Messiah would be the one to ascend into the heavens. That is the point being made here, and that is why it is worded the way it is. You just happened to cherry pick the wrong translation which inserts the word is into the text without justification, (there is a way to say that in the Greek but it is not there; and it is only implied if one believes it should be implied, lol). That makes it sound as if David still has never gone to be with the Father in Messiah, which is precisely what you were hoping it would say and why you chose that translation, but it is wrong in this case. David says "You have shown me the ways of Life" because Messiah was his Master, just as he says, and thus when the Master was raised, it was not David who ascended but Messiah, the Master of David, and no doubt the Master took his servant David with him when he ascended.

Acts 2:25-36
25 For David says concerning him, I beheld the Master always before my face; for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh also shall dwell in hope:
27 Because you will not leave my soul unto Hades, neither will you give your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known unto me the ways of life; you shall make me full of gladness by your countenance.
29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both expired and was interred, and his memorial is among us unto this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that Elohim had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne:
31 He foreseeing this spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Yeshua did Elohim raise up, whereof we all are witnesses:
33 Being therefore by the right hand of Elohim exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this, which you see and hear.
34 For not David ascended not into the heavens: but he himself says, YHWH said unto Adoni, (my Master), Sit at My right hand:
35 Until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that Elohim has made him both Master and Messiah, this Yeshua whom you crucified.

It necessarily must be worded the way it is so as not to confuse who it was who ascended into the heavens, which was of course Messiah: but that does not mean David did not go up with him, for we have that critical testimony written in Matthew 27:52-53 which you keep blindly and ignorantly ignoring.

 

[meshak]

Is there a way to close a thread, because I might just close this one

I think you have to be life time member to have that privilege.

I paid a lot for it.