The Jesus Club

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz Here is a post proving that animals too are souls, so nothing immortal in the soul.

And our body is not immortal.

So that leaves the "spirit" = "ruach" = "breath" which God breathed into man and he became a living soul, just like the animals. So "spirit" = "breath" - nothing immortal here.

No, animals have the breath of life, and are living beings.
That pertains to the physicality of life only. Man is a living soul/being.

For instance, Paul speaks of living souls here.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.​

But, man is much more than the animals, and like everything else, you have to read the context.

Man also has a soul and a spirit residing in his Physical Being.
Thus, as Paul says, man has a body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

And what is this inner man?????????

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;​

If you want to claim a man's spirit is merely his breath, how is this? You have to do a lot of explaining to make every verse that speaks of the spirit and soul fit your definition.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.​

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

Hebrews 10:38-39King James Version (KJV)
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.​

 

[glorydaz]

Yaakob haTzaddik, a certain one clothed in the pure white linen kittel of the Kohen to the foot, having the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side, that is, a Scribe after the order of Enoch, the first Scribe. Yhuda Levi-Mattithyahu is his brother, (sons of AlphaYahu).

You'll have to translate that for me, daqq.

 

[iouae]

No, animals have the breath of life, and are living beings.
That pertains to the physicality of life only. Man is a living soul/being.

My response to this is the same as to sanford. Please see #160 above.

 

[iouae]

For instance, Paul speaks of living souls here.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.​

When we send out an SOS "save our soul" will they send a preacher along, or the lifeguard?

Obviously "soul" means "self" or "save my self" is what we are signalling.

They used "soul" back then just like we use "soul" today in any count as in 276 souls were on board - not meaning 276 ghosts where on board, but 276 PEOPLE were on board.

Which do you say is the spirit component in man, the "spirit" or the "soul"? You seem unsure, and treat both as "spirit" components, leaving me to sort them out. I showed from the OT how "soul" is in man and beast. In fact that is incorrect. Man and beast ARE souls.

 

[iouae]

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

The "wholly" shows that "your whole spirit and soul and body" is idiom for "lock stock and barrel".

And humans have breath=spirit, soul=life-in-self, and body. But these are not spirit components.

If you insist one is spirit component, then pick one.

 

[glorydaz]

So "neshemah" is shared by man and beast.

The wisest man on earth (besides Christ) confirms this saying...

Ecc 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Spoiler

You might say that verse 21 is differentiating man breath from beast breath. It is not. Solomon just said they are the same, and he is QUESTIONING, and CASTING DOUBT ON the idea that the breath/spirit of man goes up while the breath/spirit of beasts goes down.

We know this because he just said "all go to one place" and that place is "dust".

So apparently, back then, like today, folks were trying to say there was a difference between the fate of man and beast after death, and Solomon says there is not.

This may shock you. It does not shock me.

I know that we are just data, a memory in God's mind, and He can put us back together again just from memory. He does not need any spiritual component to do so, and, in fact, there is no spiritual component to man. Soul is not spiritual. Spirit in man is not spiritual but simply "breath".

You sound like a JW. :think:

So, the quotes from Ecclesiastes should be your clue. Those are God's records of MAN'S arguments. It speaks of all things under the sun as observed by man. A man can only speculate according to what he sees. Thankfully, the Bible has more than man's speculations...however wise they seem to be.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

 

[glorydaz]

My response to this is the same as to sanford. Please see #160 above.

Then it is no response.

 

[iouae]

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.​

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

If I say that your lack of understanding of this subject makes me "groan in the spirit", it just means exactly what atheists too say viz. it troubles the inner me. It's idiom. Its a figure of speech which you are trying to turn into an anatomy lesson.

The "inner man" or "inner me" simply refers to making me groan deep down in side.

Let's use your logic. Is the "spirit of God" used in 1 Cor 2:11 a component of God?

Or is "spirit" used here to mean "the attitude and understanding" of God?

Likewise "spirit of man" is used "the attitude and understanding" of man.

And my cat has a feisty spirit, meaning "attitude and understanding", meaning that he is ever ready to whack one with a paw full of claws - not meaning a spirit component.

We use that term for horses too, saying this horse is very spirited or high spirited - meaning very lively - not meaning very spiritual.

 

[iouae]

Then it is no response.

Suit yourself if you don't want to read it.

Ignorance only punishes the ignorant.

 

[iouae]

If I say "We need to guard our spirit", I would mean "We have to guard our attitude".

Evil thoughts, such as to commit mass murder or suicide start from a thought which we nurture and water till it grows into full blown action.

I don't mean by that IDIOM to guard some literal anatomical component. Its a figure of speech. And like a figure of speech does not have a "figure", neither does guarding our spirits have a "spirit" or supernatural component. Figure that one out

 

[daqq]

You'll have to translate that for me, daqq.

Yaakob haTzaddik = "James the Just" or "James the Righteous" (Yaakob = Jacob, not James)

(And he did a whole lotta writing . . . way more than most would imagine). :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

When we send out an SOS "save our soul" will they send a preacher along, or the lifeguard?

Now that is funny, and it leaves you wide open for a scriptural slap down.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Which do you say is the spirit component in man, the "spirit" or the "soul"? You seem unsure, and treat both as "spirit" components, leaving me to sort them out. I showed from the OT how "soul" is in man and beast. In fact that is incorrect. Man and beast ARE souls.

I just told you. Man is a soul (living being), and has a body, soul, and spirit.

I'm not confused in the least. I agree with Paul that man is tripartite (triune, if you will).

Other believers say he is bipartite with the soul/spirit being the inner man. Soul and spirit are used quite often when speaking of the inner man. This inner man is our mind, reason, emotions, personality, and conscience, etc. That "self" you think is unconscious when we put off this TENT in which we dwell here on earth.

You think we hang around in this dead "tent", instead of realizing we "depart" and go to be with the Lord. Why would Paul have a DESIRE to DEPART if he was just going to be unconscious? :chew:

Philippians 1:22-24
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.​

 

[glorydaz]

Suit yourself if you don't want to read it.

Ignorance only punishes the ignorant.

I did read it. Which is why I said it was no response.

It's you that didn't read, obviously.

 

[jsanford108]

Thanks for the reply.

Looking at Strongs, the very next time that "neshemah" is used is Gen 7:22...

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath H5397 of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath H5397 of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

That "all" having "neshemah" is all creatures. Here are the verses in context.

Gen 7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

So "neshemah" is shared by man and beast.

I am not saying that beasts do not have "neshemah," only that it is not God-breathed, or "chay" as an adjective preceding "neshemah."

The wisest man on earth (besides Christ) confirms this saying...

Ecc 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

You might say that verse 21 is differentiating man breath from beast breath. It is not. Solomon just said they are the same, and he is QUESTIONING, and CASTING DOUBT ON the idea that the breath/spirit of man goes up while the breath/spirit of beasts goes down.

We know this because he just said "all go to one place" and that place is "dust".

So apparently, back then, like today, folks were trying to say there was a difference between the fate of man and beast after death, and Solomon says there is not.

This may shock you. It does not shock me.

I know that we are just data, a memory in God's mind, and He can put us back together again just from memory. He does not need any spiritual component to do so, and, in fact, there is no spiritual component to man. Soul is not spiritual. Spirit in man is not spiritual but simply "breath".

Ecclesiastes is a very interesting book. For one, it stands out as the most seemingly nihilistic view of life, conflicting with ideas of Christian hope. I mean, in chapter 9, verse 5, it says "the dead know nothing, they have no further reward." So, what is the purpose of this book?

I know this seems like a tangent, and in fact, it is. From the verse I give, it would appear topically that there is no afterlife at all.

Also, what about the context clues surrounding 1 Thessalonians 5:23, that point to your claim of it being an idiom? If you wish to just brush over that particular question, I am okay with that. I just find it interesting that you make the posit of this particular verse being an idiom, with no contextual evidence pointing to this (as that is how one ascertains idiom implications).

 

[glorydaz]

If I say that your lack of understanding of this subject makes me "groan in the spirit", it just means exactly what atheists too say viz. it troubles the inner me. It's idiom. Its a figure of speech which you are trying to turn into an anatomy lesson.

The "inner man" or "inner me" simply refers to making me groan deep down in side.

Let's use your logic. Is the "spirit of God" used in 1 Cor 2:11 a component of God?

Or is "spirit" used here to mean "the attitude and understanding" of God?

Likewise "spirit of man" is used "the attitude and understanding" of man.

And my cat has a feisty spirit, meaning "attitude and understanding", meaning that he is ever ready to whack one with a paw full of claws - not meaning a spirit component.

We use that term for horses too, saying this horse is very spirited or high spirited - meaning very lively - not meaning very spiritual.

Try and stick with the Bible instead of how the word spirit is used today.

God is a spirit, and they that worship Him MUST do so in spirit. John 4:24 The spirit of man is the way we commune with the Spirit of God. Spirit to spirit.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

We see an example of it here. Paul's spirit was stirred in him....this is speaking of that innermost man where the Spirit of God stirs man's spirit...quickens to his understanding God's hatred of the idolatry Paul was seeing in the city.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.​

 

[iouae]

Now that is funny, and it leaves you wide open for a scriptural slap down.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

First, did you notice that the soul can be destroyed?
The very verse you quoted says it can be, therefore it is not much of a spiritual component is it?

Soul refers to same as "SOS" meaning save my life/soul.

When we die, worms/maggots destroy our body.

But there IS something left of us. That is not some spirit component. It is our LIFE which is sealed up and stored in God's mind. We are just data, and, from memory, God can recreate us down to the last hair on our head which He has counted.

But do you know what God does with the incorrigibly wicked?
He raises them after the 1000 years, at the Great White Throne Judgment, pronounces sentence as in the rich man, and a river of lava consumes their mortal resurrected body. Then God FORGETS them, wipes them from His memory, and they are as if they have never been.

 

[glorydaz]

First, did you notice that the soul can be destroyed?
The very verse you quoted says it can be, therefore it is not much of a spiritual component is it?

Fear him who can destroy your soul in HELL.

Yeah, the soul is an important spiritual "component".

Soul refers to same as "SOS" meaning save my life/soul.

When we die, worms/maggots destroy our body.

Yeah, rotten old leaky tent. Thank the Lord we DEPART from it.

But there IS something left of us. That is not some spirit component. It is our LIFE which is sealed up and stored in God's mind. We are just data, and, from memory, God can recreate us down to the last hair on our head which He has counted.

Alright. The only verse that can support that outrageous statement is that God has counted our hair.

We are not "recreated", our body is resurrected to be reunited with our soul and spirit.

But do you know what God does with the incorrigibly wicked?
He raises them after the 1000 years, at the Great White Throne Judgment, pronounces sentence as in the rich man, and a river of lava consumes their mortal resurrected body. Then God FORGETS them, wipes them from His memory, and they are as if they have never been.

Yep, you're a JW, alright. :chuckle:

 

[iouae]

Yep, you're a JW, alright. :chuckle:

I have no clue what JW's believe, but if they say what I am saying then good for them.

 

[daqq]

But do you know what God does with the incorrigibly wicked?
He raises them after the 1000 years, at the Great White Throne Judgment, pronounces sentence as in the rich man, and a river of lava consumes their mortal resurrected body. Then God FORGETS them, wipes them from His memory, and they are as if they have never been.

Now you are really getting into some freaky stuff: does that river of lava include the "incorrigibly wicked" Buddhist from your OP? And what if he is not quite "incorrigibly wicked" enough? what happens to him then? scalding hot water instead of lava? And do you not suppose you might have defrauded him of the opportunity to make a truly informed choice by this omission? Or are you just making things up as the thread progresses? For some reason I cannot seem to remember this river of lava consuming resurrected mortal bodies anywhere in your OP, and by the way, that sounds really angry, vengeful, and pointless: why would God even need to do such a thing? The only thing that needs to be said is, "Depart from me, I never knew you", (and in this Club it will not be said by a bouncer at the door because the Master himself is the Door, lol).

 

[glorydaz]

I have no clue what JW's believe, but if they say what I am saying then good for them.

You like agreeing with a cult? Every cult I know says what you say.

Yours is nothing but the vain imaginings of a natural man. You'd best look into the Scripture instead of picking and choosing what you think agrees with your own particular fancy.