Evangelion
New member
Well said that man. :up:
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
agape
New member
Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
BTW, I'm still waiting for any kind of proof text whatsoever from you? Waiting...waiting...and waiting....hope to get some or at least one before Christ returns!
Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Guess you could not prove me wrong...so you stoop to this kind of pathetic response. One should know the Word enough to not even need to be shown "proof text" because it's clearly written in God's Word. I and others have given ample proof text on the subject matter which goes way over your "religious" head.
You fit this description to an exactness.
BTW, I'm still waiting for any kind of proof text whatsoever from you? Waiting...waiting...and waiting....hope to get some or at least one before Christ returns!
Evangelion
New member
Ha! Agape spoke to me!
I guess we can see which of us has the greater self control...
I guess we can see which of us has the greater self control...
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Did everyone notice the last post of Agape did not show a single proof text for his statements. More rhetoric. Can we be saved by rhetoric? When will Agape ever show that the Holy Spirit is the cleansing agent of God? He is so sure that he has been Holy Spirit baptized and cleansed of sins, but he does not show a proof text. More rhetoric.....
JustAChristian
Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Originally posted by agape
Guess you could not prove me wrong...so you stoop to this kind of pathetic response. One should know the Word enough to not even need to be shown "proof text" because it's clearly written in God's Word. I and others have given ample proof text on the subject matter which goes way over your "religious" head.
You fit this description to an exactness.
BTW, I'm still waiting for any kind of proof text whatsoever from you? Waiting...waiting...and waiting....hope to get some or at least one before Christ returns!
Did everyone notice the last post of Agape did not show a single proof text for his statements. More rhetoric. Can we be saved by rhetoric? When will Agape ever show that the Holy Spirit is the cleansing agent of God? He is so sure that he has been Holy Spirit baptized and cleansed of sins, but he does not show a proof text. More rhetoric.....
JustAChristian
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
Bu your own definition of "sanctification" we see that "to sanctify" means,among other things, "to make something into a state of proper functioning."
In order that a Christian can be acceptable to God and to function properly with the indwelt Holy Spirit,all his sins must be taken away or cleansed.
And we see in Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit that does in fact "sanctify" the Christian:
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God,the Father,through sanctification of the Spirit"(1Pet.1:2).
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit"(2Thess.2:13).
Sanctification is spoken of as being by God the Father,by the Spirit,in Jesus Christ,and by blood.And Scripture does speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ.
These are not separate means of being sanctified,but instead they all refer to the one and same "sanctification".
God the Father is the Author,the Spirit the Agent,and the blood the means of our sanctification,and it is in Christ that all this is possible.
Your idea that one is saved by submitting to the rite of water baptism goes beck to the pagan religions that believed that one´s soul can actually be washed by water.They believed that "sins" could actually attach themselves to the "souls" of men.Therefore,they believed that "water" could actually cleanse the sins from the soul.
In His grace,--Jerry
Bu your own definition of "sanctification" we see that "to sanctify" means,among other things, "to make something into a state of proper functioning."
In order that a Christian can be acceptable to God and to function properly with the indwelt Holy Spirit,all his sins must be taken away or cleansed.
And we see in Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit that does in fact "sanctify" the Christian:
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God,the Father,through sanctification of the Spirit"(1Pet.1:2).
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit"(2Thess.2:13).
Sanctification is spoken of as being by God the Father,by the Spirit,in Jesus Christ,and by blood.And Scripture does speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ.
These are not separate means of being sanctified,but instead they all refer to the one and same "sanctification".
God the Father is the Author,the Spirit the Agent,and the blood the means of our sanctification,and it is in Christ that all this is possible.
Your idea that one is saved by submitting to the rite of water baptism goes beck to the pagan religions that believed that one´s soul can actually be washed by water.They believed that "sins" could actually attach themselves to the "souls" of men.Therefore,they believed that "water" could actually cleanse the sins from the soul.
In His grace,--Jerry
HopeofGlory
New member
Jerry,
Excellent point!
Can't wait for his reply.
In Christ
Craig
Excellent point!
Can't wait for his reply.
In Christ
Craig
Kevin
New member
Jerry,
The fact is that they did need another baptism, and that baptism was baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). Simple fact.
The baptism "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 19 is indeed the same baptism perfomed at Acts 2:38, which was "in the name of Jesus Christ". Same thing - "in the name of the Lord" vs. "in the name of Jesus Christ". Upon this baptism, one does recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). However, this is not the same thing when the Holy Spirit falls upon someone, giving them miraculous gifts.
Look at Acts 8:16. The Samaritans had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, yet the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. So, Peter and John came up and laid hands upon them so they could recieve the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Bible, the effect of this is recieving the ability to do miraculous things. This does not save them.
It is possible to already have the Holy Spirit, yet not have the ability to do miraculous things by the power of the Holy Spirit. Look at Acts 6:5. They had the Holy Spirit before the apostles laid hands upon them. Why do you suppose they laid hands on them if they already had the Holy Spririt? So they could do mircales by the Holy Spirit (verse 8).
Do miracles is "necessary"? Hardly. Also, as I said earlier, when was the last time you saw a new convert recieve the Holy Spirit by having it fall on them, which looks like tongues of fire?
The fact is that they did need another baptism, and that baptism was baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). Simple fact.
The baptism "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 19 is indeed the same baptism perfomed at Acts 2:38, which was "in the name of Jesus Christ". Same thing - "in the name of the Lord" vs. "in the name of Jesus Christ". Upon this baptism, one does recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). However, this is not the same thing when the Holy Spirit falls upon someone, giving them miraculous gifts.
Look at Acts 8:16. The Samaritans had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, yet the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. So, Peter and John came up and laid hands upon them so they could recieve the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Bible, the effect of this is recieving the ability to do miraculous things. This does not save them.
It is possible to already have the Holy Spirit, yet not have the ability to do miraculous things by the power of the Holy Spirit. Look at Acts 6:5. They had the Holy Spirit before the apostles laid hands upon them. Why do you suppose they laid hands on them if they already had the Holy Spririt? So they could do mircales by the Holy Spirit (verse 8).
Do miracles is "necessary"? Hardly. Also, as I said earlier, when was the last time you saw a new convert recieve the Holy Spirit by having it fall on them, which looks like tongues of fire?
agape
New member
Re: Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Re: Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
Can you read this?
Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
You are calling Jesus a liar. Way to go JAC...way to go....
Re: Re: Waiting, waiting and waiting.....
LOL, JAC...I suggest you keep studying God's Word, you may learn something yet! Btw, did you pass the reading course in school? Maybe you need to polish up since you can't read God's Word correctly...and of which you demonstrate in your last post to Jerry
Can you read this?
Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
You are calling Jesus a liar. Way to go JAC...way to go....
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Kevin
New member
Agape,
LOL!!!!!! You don't even use your mouth when you confess within yourself! LOL!!! Desperation has really set in!
Mind your tongue, and don't ever accuse me of something so foolish, especially when you can't back it... and no... your doctrine of "I don't actually have to do anything to be saved" isn't proof.
And I've already agreed that we are not saved by works. Go back and answer my points if you are going to continue to ride the merry go round which you said you weren't. Make up your mind.
We are to confess Him "with the mouth", which involves an action. Of course if your heart isn't with Christ you words won't mean anything. You've got to mean what you say. None of this changes the fact that we are to confess Jesus "with the mouth".
This still doesn't change the fact that we are to confess Christ "with the mouth". I wish I could meet you in person and see you confess Christ "with the mouth" without you actually doing it. Look in the mirror and try it, perhaps you will see how rediculous your arguement is.
So, you're not going to address my points and instead repeat your same broken record. Ok.
Really? It must have looked cool to see the burning tongues resting upon your head.
Hebrews 5:9 state that Christ is the author of eternal salvation for all who "OBEY" Him.
I would never tell God He's wrong... you on the other hand... not a problem, because you are.
It's funny to hear you say that, when you don't think it's necessary to obey His commandments to be saved. To think that we are going to be in God's grace without obeying His commandments to us is ludicrous.
LOL!!!!!! You don't even use your mouth when you confess within yourself! LOL!!! Desperation has really set in!
Mind your tongue, and don't ever accuse me of something so foolish, especially when you can't back it... and no... your doctrine of "I don't actually have to do anything to be saved" isn't proof.
And I've already agreed that we are not saved by works. Go back and answer my points if you are going to continue to ride the merry go round which you said you weren't. Make up your mind.
We are to confess Him "with the mouth", which involves an action. Of course if your heart isn't with Christ you words won't mean anything. You've got to mean what you say. None of this changes the fact that we are to confess Jesus "with the mouth".
This still doesn't change the fact that we are to confess Christ "with the mouth". I wish I could meet you in person and see you confess Christ "with the mouth" without you actually doing it. Look in the mirror and try it, perhaps you will see how rediculous your arguement is.
So, you're not going to address my points and instead repeat your same broken record. Ok.
Really? It must have looked cool to see the burning tongues resting upon your head.
Hebrews 5:9 state that Christ is the author of eternal salvation for all who "OBEY" Him.
I would never tell God He's wrong... you on the other hand... not a problem, because you are.
It's funny to hear you say that, when you don't think it's necessary to obey His commandments to be saved. To think that we are going to be in God's grace without obeying His commandments to us is ludicrous.
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Scripture, please.
Scripture, please.
Scripture, please.
Water baptism is a visual representation of what is actually happening upon being water baptized in the name of the Lord - that we die of our sinful self, the body of sin is done away with (buried), and we are born again, walking in the Spirit. These things happen at the point of baptism. Romans 6 talks about how we are buried in baptism into Christ's death... and this is represented as well as done at the point of baptism. What is not represented by baptism is that somebody is already saved, as the denominations teach. How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?
Scripture? And if you're going to try to use Romans 6, Paul, who wrote this chapter practiced baptizing in the name of the Lord. He practiced what he preached. Romans 6 is not speaking of spirit baptism. Paul wouldn't preach one baptism and practice another.
I'm glad at least that you admit that spirit baptism cannot represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. You have no evidence that Paul is speaking of spirit baptism in Romans 6. I however, have a baptism that perfectly represents what is actually happening (death, burial, and resurrection), and is also backed up by the fact that this is what Paul practiced. Where's your evidence?
Scripture, please.
Scripture, please.
Scripture, please.
Water baptism is a visual representation of what is actually happening upon being water baptized in the name of the Lord - that we die of our sinful self, the body of sin is done away with (buried), and we are born again, walking in the Spirit. These things happen at the point of baptism. Romans 6 talks about how we are buried in baptism into Christ's death... and this is represented as well as done at the point of baptism. What is not represented by baptism is that somebody is already saved, as the denominations teach. How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?
Scripture? And if you're going to try to use Romans 6, Paul, who wrote this chapter practiced baptizing in the name of the Lord. He practiced what he preached. Romans 6 is not speaking of spirit baptism. Paul wouldn't preach one baptism and practice another.
I'm glad at least that you admit that spirit baptism cannot represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. You have no evidence that Paul is speaking of spirit baptism in Romans 6. I however, have a baptism that perfectly represents what is actually happening (death, burial, and resurrection), and is also backed up by the fact that this is what Paul practiced. Where's your evidence?
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Evangelion
New member
Jerry -
Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself. Worship God in spirit and in truth. Love God and keep His commandments (for His commandments are not grievous.) Very simple.
Look through the NT and you'll find plenty of God's commandments. It beats me that so many Christians try to wriggle out of them.
Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself. Worship God in spirit and in truth. Love God and keep His commandments (for His commandments are not grievous.) Very simple.
Look through the NT and you'll find plenty of God's commandments. It beats me that so many Christians try to wriggle out of them.
Evangelion
New member
BTW - thanks Kevin! :up:
:up:
Evangelion
New member
Hey, Kevin - here's another interesting thing. You remember that HopeOfGlory has claimed that the remission of sins by the shed blood of Jesus was not taught before the conversion of the apostle Paul? And you remember that I had pointed to the Last Supper as proof that it was? And you remember that HopeOfGlory had claimed that the apostles would not have understood the symbolism of the bread and wine? (Which in turn implies that Jesus never explained it...)
Well, how about we read our Bibles, eh...?
Well, how about we read our Bibles, eh...?
Matthew 26:26-28.
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
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agape
New member
Agape,
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With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself,
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This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar
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He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast
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With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself,
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LOL!!! Notice the intelligent response? It's so simple to understand. You are confessing in your mouth...you are saying, not verbally having to say it, but inwardly you are confessing and saying Jesus Christ is you Lord who died for your sins and was made alive because you believe this. Our sins are remitted and we are saved and have eternal life. Now it's ok to say it verbally if you want, but that does not make you saved. It's what one believes and confesses on the inside. It is not works of any kind that gets one saved and born again, which includes "flapping the lips."
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This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar
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You mind the Word of God cause it's God's Word that's calling you a liar.
quote:
He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast
What a joke. If you agree that we are not saved by works, then we would not be having this "so-called" discussion in the first place.
Hey...thanks for reminding me. TA TA
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agape
New member
Can't worship God in truth and "in" spirit UNLESS you are BORN AGAIN OF HIS SPIRIT.
The New Testament starts with the Book of Romans, a doctrinal epistle concerning our justification IN CHRIST, along with Ephesians, another doctrinal epistle concerning our heavenly standing.
So, what commandments in the NT are we Christians supposedly wiggling out from??