Evangelion
New member
Nobody's answered my question yet.
Why am I not surprised?
Why am I not surprised?
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
Agape Needs More Help!
Agape Needs More Help!
Originally posted by Agape:
I think you are just saying that to save face. Surely you don't place yourself on a par with the apostles!!
What does the"ff" after Acts 8:14ff mean?
You see, one of us has to be rational. I have told you before the "whole of anything is the sum of it's parts". When you go back to the incident of the Samaritans receiving the laying on of hands of the apostles they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Philip could have done this there would have been no need for the apostles to come to Samaria and impart the Spirit. Since the apostles were not with Philip on the road to Gaza there was no imparting of the Spirit to the Eunuch for the purpose of doing miracles. He did receive the measure of the Spirit as a token of salvation for this is promised to all Christians (2 Cor 1:22).
Rhetoric and unproven
Bias, speculative and unproven. Straight out of Tennessee Temple College, Chattanooga, TN and the Sword of the Lord periodical. Definitely not scripture.
Whatever...
JustAChristian
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3:5-6).
Jesus...
1. Saves us by cleansing us of our sins.
2. Instills within us His Spirit as "downpayment on eternal life".
3. Which all who obey the Gospel receive through Jesus Christ.
Agape Needs More Help!
Originally posted by Agape:
I think you are just saying that to save face. Surely you don't place yourself on a par with the apostles!!
What does the"ff" after Acts 8:14ff mean?
You see, one of us has to be rational. I have told you before the "whole of anything is the sum of it's parts". When you go back to the incident of the Samaritans receiving the laying on of hands of the apostles they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Philip could have done this there would have been no need for the apostles to come to Samaria and impart the Spirit. Since the apostles were not with Philip on the road to Gaza there was no imparting of the Spirit to the Eunuch for the purpose of doing miracles. He did receive the measure of the Spirit as a token of salvation for this is promised to all Christians (2 Cor 1:22).
Rhetoric and unproven
Bias, speculative and unproven. Straight out of Tennessee Temple College, Chattanooga, TN and the Sword of the Lord periodical. Definitely not scripture.
Whatever...
JustAChristian
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3:5-6).
Jesus...
1. Saves us by cleansing us of our sins.
2. Instills within us His Spirit as "downpayment on eternal life".
3. Which all who obey the Gospel receive through Jesus Christ.
Deal with my entire post - not the parts you like...
Deal with my entire post - not the parts you like...
Hey Jerry -
You skipped over the parts of my last post you did not want to deal with.
Must man do ANYTHING to obtain salvation?? OR - are you a Calvinist??
What separates the LOST from the SAVED??
I see that YOU offered no classification for WORKS. DId you agree or do you just not know there is a difference?
Did you disagree with my application of the EXAMPLES of HOW many have obtained God's blessing in the past by "works" ??
Did you agree with my analogy on the TV I won as a free gift?
And did you agree with the list of "works" I presented that brings a man to the POINT of savation - hear/believe/repent/confess/ and water baptism??
How about some answers from YOU Jerry?? You would ask questions all day if I continued to answer them!
As far as grace and being justified without cause, I think we agree there. Being dunked in water is NOT CAUSE - it is a CONDITION upon which one receives the grace.
Question: If there are no CONDITIONS to receving the GRACE of God, why do not ALL MEN receive His grace Jerry??????
Hmmm???
Deal with my entire post - not the parts you like...
Hey Jerry -
You skipped over the parts of my last post you did not want to deal with.
Must man do ANYTHING to obtain salvation?? OR - are you a Calvinist??
What separates the LOST from the SAVED??
I see that YOU offered no classification for WORKS. DId you agree or do you just not know there is a difference?
Did you disagree with my application of the EXAMPLES of HOW many have obtained God's blessing in the past by "works" ??
Did you agree with my analogy on the TV I won as a free gift?
And did you agree with the list of "works" I presented that brings a man to the POINT of savation - hear/believe/repent/confess/ and water baptism??
How about some answers from YOU Jerry?? You would ask questions all day if I continued to answer them!
As far as grace and being justified without cause, I think we agree there. Being dunked in water is NOT CAUSE - it is a CONDITION upon which one receives the grace.
Question: If there are no CONDITIONS to receving the GRACE of God, why do not ALL MEN receive His grace Jerry??????
Hmmm???
Preaching the gospel saved the people - not the HS or HS baptism...
Preaching the gospel saved the people - not the HS or HS baptism...
Examples of Conversion (8)– ALL were Baptized!!
Acts 2 – 3,000 – Baptized – In the name of Jesus Christ - Saved – Added to the church
Acts 8 – Simon/Samaritans – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
Acts 8 – Ethiopian eunuch – baptized – Rejoiced!
Acts 9 – Paul – Baptized – Sins “washed away”! – Acts 22:16
Acts 10 – Cornelius/household – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ – saved 11:18
Acts 16 – Lydia/household – Baptized
Acts 16 – Jailor/all his – Baptized – Rejoiced greatly!
Acts 18 – Crispus/household/Corinthians – baptized – (See 1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they had been “washed”/”sanctified”/”justified” in the name of Jesus Christ and the spirit of God!)
Acts 19 – Ephesians(12) – Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!
By the examples we have teaching of the gospel, believing, repentance, confession, and then water baptism. What a simple plan to save souls!
EVERY example of conversion in the NT, all in the book of Acts, shows that they were baptized – Jew and Gentile! Five of the eight occasions clearly depict that baptism was in the name of Jesus Christ. There is NO reason to question that the other three were not also. The baptism of the Great Commission spread throughout the world! Expressions of salvation and/or rejoicing come AFTER baptism.
Preaching the gospel saved the people - not the HS or HS baptism...
Examples of Conversion (8)– ALL were Baptized!!
Acts 2 – 3,000 – Baptized – In the name of Jesus Christ - Saved – Added to the church
Acts 8 – Simon/Samaritans – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
Acts 8 – Ethiopian eunuch – baptized – Rejoiced!
Acts 9 – Paul – Baptized – Sins “washed away”! – Acts 22:16
Acts 10 – Cornelius/household – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ – saved 11:18
Acts 16 – Lydia/household – Baptized
Acts 16 – Jailor/all his – Baptized – Rejoiced greatly!
Acts 18 – Crispus/household/Corinthians – baptized – (See 1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they had been “washed”/”sanctified”/”justified” in the name of Jesus Christ and the spirit of God!)
Acts 19 – Ephesians(12) – Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!
By the examples we have teaching of the gospel, believing, repentance, confession, and then water baptism. What a simple plan to save souls!
EVERY example of conversion in the NT, all in the book of Acts, shows that they were baptized – Jew and Gentile! Five of the eight occasions clearly depict that baptism was in the name of Jesus Christ. There is NO reason to question that the other three were not also. The baptism of the Great Commission spread throughout the world! Expressions of salvation and/or rejoicing come AFTER baptism.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Apollos,
Originally I asked what "works" are necessary for one to receive EVERLASTING SALVATION.
Instead of answering that,you only told what "works" are necessary to bring man "to a point of salvation".But we all know that to you just coming to "a point of salvation" does not mean the same thing as EVERLASTING SALVATION.
Now,if you want me to know the true meaning of the Lord´s words at John 3:5,you must first answer my initial question.
In His grace,--Jerry
Originally I asked what "works" are necessary for one to receive EVERLASTING SALVATION.
Instead of answering that,you only told what "works" are necessary to bring man "to a point of salvation".But we all know that to you just coming to "a point of salvation" does not mean the same thing as EVERLASTING SALVATION.
Now,if you want me to know the true meaning of the Lord´s words at John 3:5,you must first answer my initial question.
In His grace,--Jerry
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agape
New member
Re: JAC...Works don't work for salvation
Re: JAC...Works don't work for salvation
Re: JAC...Works don't work for salvation
LOL...another winner. I most certainly do place myself on a par with the apostles. You think they were the ones baptized?? How ridiculous. They were baptized and I was baptized in the holy spirit and we all have the same gift and measure of faith! They are saved by grace, born again of God's Spirit and have eternal life just like me!
Yes, true and it always seems like I have to be the rational one. Oh well.
Please re-read what I state.
Obviously they didn't need to be there as they did with the Samaritan. Again, re-read what I posted.
He did receive the measure of the Spirit as a token of salvation for this is promised to all Christians (2 Cor 1:22).[/quoted]He received the gift of holy spirit, was saved, born again and received eternal life just like all the others who believed in Christ. The holy spirit is also a token, because we received it because we believed of our salvation, being saved, born again and receiving eternal life.
JAC...when it comes to "rhetoric and unproven" you are KING.
And YOU SHOULD KNOW. Bias, speculative, unproven are words that best describe you and often demonstrated in your post as you falsely explain God's Word, make it up as you go along, privately interpret it and take it out way out of context.
A wonderful verse of Scripture! Praise God! NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS...NOT OF YOURSELVES. BUT according os his mercy HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration...THROUGH THE INWARD CLEANSING of the HOLY GHOST...BAPTISM WITH HOLY SPIRIT...AND RENEWING of the HOLY GHOST...which he SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY "THROUGH" JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR. Real beautiful. Salvation and eternal life freely given to us. How wonderful our God truly is...loving and merciful.
See what I mean how you fit the description of being bias, speculative, PI, making things up as you go alone, taking the Word way out of context,..etc.? Jesus Christ shed his blood for the remission of our sins once and for all. God's Spirit in us is NOT A DOWNPAYMENT...It is God's incorruptible seed/eternal holy-life spirit in us which we receive BY FAITH ONLY OR ALONE, are save, born again and have eternal life.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
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JustAChristian
New member
What Brings Everlasting Life?...
What Brings Everlasting Life?...
Jerry,
Jesus made it so plain and it will always be the same...
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" John 8:31.
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:54.
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" Romans 2:7.
" Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." 1 Tim 6:12
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21
When one continues doing what Jesus has said to do in their life they will be rewarded with eternal life.
JustAChristian
Before there is eternal life there must be obedience Mark 16:16.
What Brings Everlasting Life?...
Jerry,
Jesus made it so plain and it will always be the same...
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" John 8:31.
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:54.
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" Romans 2:7.
" Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." 1 Tim 6:12
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21
When one continues doing what Jesus has said to do in their life they will be rewarded with eternal life.
JustAChristian
Before there is eternal life there must be obedience Mark 16:16.
c.moore
New member
Hello Kevin
here is your answers and bible scriptures.
quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Scripture, please.
John 14:17 Jesus spoke of "the Spirit of truth… but you know Him, for He dwells WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."
Water from the baptism pool can not dwell in you , but the spirit can.
in John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."
The scripture says nothing about water of truth.
Jesus said to them, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." What happened on Pentecost in chapter 2 was much more than just the filling of the Spirit, it was spiritual baptism. Peter confirmed this before the Jerusalem counsel (Acts 11:15-18).
Act 1:8"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
The verse doesn`t say you have power when you baptized in water.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scripture, please.
Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Look this birth is spiritual,in order A person can enter into the kingdom of God which is for all real christians the important, and main birth.
But water baptism people believe the water is the main birth to be born again.
Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scripture, please.
Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote by kevin
How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?
quote by c.moore
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
peace
here is your answers and bible scriptures.
quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Scripture, please.
John 14:17 Jesus spoke of "the Spirit of truth… but you know Him, for He dwells WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."
Water from the baptism pool can not dwell in you , but the spirit can.
in John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."
The scripture says nothing about water of truth.
Jesus said to them, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." What happened on Pentecost in chapter 2 was much more than just the filling of the Spirit, it was spiritual baptism. Peter confirmed this before the Jerusalem counsel (Acts 11:15-18).
Act 1:8"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
The verse doesn`t say you have power when you baptized in water.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scripture, please.
Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Look this birth is spiritual,in order A person can enter into the kingdom of God which is for all real christians the important, and main birth.
But water baptism people believe the water is the main birth to be born again.
Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scripture, please.
Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote by kevin
How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?
quote by c.moore
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
peace
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Why do you spam the forums with posts that you've already posted? If it's to get my attention to answer it, you have to keep in mind that I don't sit at my computer every spare moment clicking the refresh button with hours and hours to spend replying. I have a full time job.
What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).
When was the last time you saw a new convert with a flaming tongue over thier head? That's what happens in spriit baptism. The Holy Spirit also fell upon people in the Old Testament (Numbers 11:25). Did this save them? No. Did this put them "INTO CHRIST"? Impossible, for He hadn't come yet. The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore? It was baptism in the name of the Lord, which does use water. Why didn't they recieve the spirit baptism?
When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?
Yeah, and what's your point? He was speaking to the apostles, that they would recieve when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and it did in Acts 2:4. Christ was not saying this was going to happen to everybody! He was talking to the apostles! Like I said, when was the last time you saw the Holy Spirit fall upon a new convert, which looks like tongues of fire. And again, why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?
Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit. That is perfectly consistent with the fact that baptism in the name of the Lord is what was practiced, and that it uses water (Acts 10:47-48) as well as bestowing the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
Yes, it's that faith which leads a person to being baptized in the Lord's name. That just goes right along with Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved! And what was the baptism practiced by the apostles? Baptism in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is?
Nowhere in there did I see it saying that baptism in the name of the Lord is a "description of the real thing". Try again.
You quote John 3:6-7 which speaks about being born again, yet leave out the verse (verse 5) which speaks about how to be born again: WATER and the spirit.
Why do you spam the forums with posts that you've already posted? If it's to get my attention to answer it, you have to keep in mind that I don't sit at my computer every spare moment clicking the refresh button with hours and hours to spend replying. I have a full time job.
What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).
When was the last time you saw a new convert with a flaming tongue over thier head? That's what happens in spriit baptism. The Holy Spirit also fell upon people in the Old Testament (Numbers 11:25). Did this save them? No. Did this put them "INTO CHRIST"? Impossible, for He hadn't come yet. The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore? It was baptism in the name of the Lord, which does use water. Why didn't they recieve the spirit baptism?
When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?
Yeah, and what's your point? He was speaking to the apostles, that they would recieve when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and it did in Acts 2:4. Christ was not saying this was going to happen to everybody! He was talking to the apostles! Like I said, when was the last time you saw the Holy Spirit fall upon a new convert, which looks like tongues of fire. And again, why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?
Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit. That is perfectly consistent with the fact that baptism in the name of the Lord is what was practiced, and that it uses water (Acts 10:47-48) as well as bestowing the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
Yes, it's that faith which leads a person to being baptized in the Lord's name. That just goes right along with Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved! And what was the baptism practiced by the apostles? Baptism in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is?
Nowhere in there did I see it saying that baptism in the name of the Lord is a "description of the real thing". Try again.
You quote John 3:6-7 which speaks about being born again, yet leave out the verse (verse 5) which speaks about how to be born again: WATER and the spirit.
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Kevin
New member
Pathetic...
Pathetic...
Agape,
That's just it... there are some things in life that doesn't take any "reading into", because they're so simple and logical. Even a child would understand the basic fact that if we are to do something with the mouth, that that means we actually have to use our mouths. A child would get that.
"Confess" is the verb - you know - an action. "With the mouth" tell how we are to do that action, and your logic says to do it inside, not using the very thing that we are supposed to use - the mouth!
Your stubborness and pride is nothing short of pathetic. I bet if the topic was not about theology, you would have no problem understand the SIMPLE concept of using your mouth.
This kind of thing is good in the sense that it just shows how ridiculous your argument is, what extent that people will go to defend their arguement regardless of basic reasoning or logic, and what blind pride can do to a person. Thanks!
I can easily see why Evangelion didn't want to speak to you. It doesn't do much good to speak to a person who completely throws reasoning and logic out the window. But then again, to defend your doctrine would indeed require that one throws out logic and reasoning.
Pathetic...
Agape,
That's just it... there are some things in life that doesn't take any "reading into", because they're so simple and logical. Even a child would understand the basic fact that if we are to do something with the mouth, that that means we actually have to use our mouths. A child would get that.
"Confess" is the verb - you know - an action. "With the mouth" tell how we are to do that action, and your logic says to do it inside, not using the very thing that we are supposed to use - the mouth!
Your stubborness and pride is nothing short of pathetic. I bet if the topic was not about theology, you would have no problem understand the SIMPLE concept of using your mouth.
This kind of thing is good in the sense that it just shows how ridiculous your argument is, what extent that people will go to defend their arguement regardless of basic reasoning or logic, and what blind pride can do to a person. Thanks!
I can easily see why Evangelion didn't want to speak to you. It doesn't do much good to speak to a person who completely throws reasoning and logic out the window. But then again, to defend your doctrine would indeed require that one throws out logic and reasoning.
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H'mong
New member
Interesting discussion. I think Scripture is clear that", baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," At Baptism we testify to the new birth and a good conscience towards God. To not be baptized is a sign of disobedience in declaring one's faith and there was no such thing as Christians who refused baptism in the Book of Acts. For one to refuse Baptism is to refuse to acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Lord of one's life. On the other hand to say that Water Baptism regenerates us or imparts the new birth makes Baptism into a golden calf and builds salvation upon a Christian ordinance/sacrament rather than Jesus Christ. Baptism is simply the outward declaration that one has faith in Christ.
Grace to you all
Grace to you all
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Kevin
New member
H'mong,
Actually, Romans 6:1-11, which is speaking of baptism, does indeed support the idea that baptism makes us born again into Christ.
Nowhere in scripture will you find baptism defined in this manner. This is the common teaching of man, not of God. Romans 6 speaks of what baptism does for us... that it allows us to put away our old man of sin and be born again into Christ. This is what baptism does for us. It's not a declaration, and nor is it an outward show of faith for other Christians.
Actually, Romans 6:1-11, which is speaking of baptism, does indeed support the idea that baptism makes us born again into Christ.
Nowhere in scripture will you find baptism defined in this manner. This is the common teaching of man, not of God. Romans 6 speaks of what baptism does for us... that it allows us to put away our old man of sin and be born again into Christ. This is what baptism does for us. It's not a declaration, and nor is it an outward show of faith for other Christians.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Kevin,
In the first place, your example of Acts 2:38 show that under the Kingdom gospel, water babtism was a requirement, but it does not prove that the physical water was the cause of spiritual regeneration. Water can only ceremonially wash the flesh, according to 1 Peter 3:21.
There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Even the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins according to Hebrews 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. , but only sanctified to the purifying of the flesh according to Hebrews 9:13,
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The early church fathers who believed in baptismal regeneration recognized the fact that water could not effect a spiritual renewal.
Even if John 3:5 referred to to water baptism, it still remains that the new birth was by both water and Spirit
But the question arises, did Christ mean to refer to water baptism in His words to Nicodemus? It is significant that Jesus used water in this Gospel a number of times in a figurative or spiritual sense. Surely the living water which He offered the woman at the well was not literal water. And when He said:
"out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", we are plainly told that He was speaking of the Holy Spirit. Even the Old Testament prophets used water as representing the Holy Spirit and His work. Would anyone suppose that isaiah was speaking of holes in the ground when he said: "Therefore with joy shall you draw water out of the wells of salvation" (Is. 12:3) And is the writer to the Hebrews, after having told us of the absolute inability of holy water to cleanse from sin, going back to the weak and beggarly elements when he says:" Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water"?
It is my belief that the water in John 3:5 is the Holy Spirit, and that the "and" (kai) should be translated "even," making the passage read: "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
No you receive it before. Otherwise you are not saved. It is the Holy Spirit bearing witness to your spirit that He is indeed real. Then you confess by mouth that you are a sinner and need the work of the cross applied to you. And then you become a child of the living God.
In the first place, your example of Acts 2:38 show that under the Kingdom gospel, water babtism was a requirement, but it does not prove that the physical water was the cause of spiritual regeneration. Water can only ceremonially wash the flesh, according to 1 Peter 3:21.
There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Even the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins according to Hebrews 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. , but only sanctified to the purifying of the flesh according to Hebrews 9:13,
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The early church fathers who believed in baptismal regeneration recognized the fact that water could not effect a spiritual renewal.
Even if John 3:5 referred to to water baptism, it still remains that the new birth was by both water and Spirit
But the question arises, did Christ mean to refer to water baptism in His words to Nicodemus? It is significant that Jesus used water in this Gospel a number of times in a figurative or spiritual sense. Surely the living water which He offered the woman at the well was not literal water. And when He said:
"out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", we are plainly told that He was speaking of the Holy Spirit. Even the Old Testament prophets used water as representing the Holy Spirit and His work. Would anyone suppose that isaiah was speaking of holes in the ground when he said: "Therefore with joy shall you draw water out of the wells of salvation" (Is. 12:3) And is the writer to the Hebrews, after having told us of the absolute inability of holy water to cleanse from sin, going back to the weak and beggarly elements when he says:" Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water"?
It is my belief that the water in John 3:5 is the Holy Spirit, and that the "and" (kai) should be translated "even," making the passage read: "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
No you receive it before. Otherwise you are not saved. It is the Holy Spirit bearing witness to your spirit that He is indeed real. Then you confess by mouth that you are a sinner and need the work of the cross applied to you. And then you become a child of the living God.
Kevin
New member
drbrumley,
This is such a common misconception about those who advocate the necessity of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. I have never stated that it is the water which causes spiritual regeneration. Never. Water is simply the element chosen by God to be used in baptism.
Agreed. Both of those requirements are met by the baptism of the Lord.
By all means, stick with your translation. I'll stick with the translations of the mojor canons - "and".
Really? So when was the last time that you saw a flaming tongue descend upon somebody, which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody (Acts 2:3)?
To be saved, we must be "in Christ". Baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us "in Christ". If your claiming that spirit baptism puts us in Christ, then you would have to explain how it was possible for the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 to be "in Christ" when He hadn't come yet. The Holy Spirit fell upon them, which gave them miraculous abilities. The same goes for the people who had this happen to them in the New Testament, they recieved the ability to do miraculous things, which does not save us.
The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, yet, Peter still had them baptized in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is, if they were already supposedly saved?
This is such a common misconception about those who advocate the necessity of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. I have never stated that it is the water which causes spiritual regeneration. Never. Water is simply the element chosen by God to be used in baptism.
Agreed. Both of those requirements are met by the baptism of the Lord.
By all means, stick with your translation. I'll stick with the translations of the mojor canons - "and".
Really? So when was the last time that you saw a flaming tongue descend upon somebody, which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody (Acts 2:3)?
To be saved, we must be "in Christ". Baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us "in Christ". If your claiming that spirit baptism puts us in Christ, then you would have to explain how it was possible for the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 to be "in Christ" when He hadn't come yet. The Holy Spirit fell upon them, which gave them miraculous abilities. The same goes for the people who had this happen to them in the New Testament, they recieved the ability to do miraculous things, which does not save us.
The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, yet, Peter still had them baptized in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is, if they were already supposedly saved?
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drbrumley
Well-known member
Kevin,
Well FYI, And and even is the SAME word in Greek. "kai"
Now Kevin, I would like you to step back and get a hold of yourself because you are lost in your own world.
You said specifically that "which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody." But within that same post, you make this wonderful comment.
My question to you then is this: Where are the cloven tongues of fire? I mean the Holy Spirit fell on them as you said but you also said the Cloven Tongues of Fire is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on someone. And by the way, since you are saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you, did you have the Cloven Tongues upon you? Just wondering.
True statement.
Another true statement.
Well, for starters, Jesus clearly identified Himself with the Jehovah of the Old Testament. But that is not the main point. The main point is what I told Evangelion on a debate we are having. Let me quote from that.
Also:
You said:
Agreed.
Right there is your mistake. You are lumping them with us. This Dispensation of Grace has NOTHING to do with the Kingdom that was offered Isreal. Or the Mosiac Law as you referenced Isreal in Numbers.
Well FYI, And and even is the SAME word in Greek. "kai"
Now Kevin, I would like you to step back and get a hold of yourself because you are lost in your own world.
You said specifically that "which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody." But within that same post, you make this wonderful comment.
My question to you then is this: Where are the cloven tongues of fire? I mean the Holy Spirit fell on them as you said but you also said the Cloven Tongues of Fire is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on someone. And by the way, since you are saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you, did you have the Cloven Tongues upon you? Just wondering.
True statement.
Another true statement.
Well, for starters, Jesus clearly identified Himself with the Jehovah of the Old Testament. But that is not the main point. The main point is what I told Evangelion on a debate we are having. Let me quote from that.
Also:
You said:
Agreed.
Right there is your mistake. You are lumping them with us. This Dispensation of Grace has NOTHING to do with the Kingdom that was offered Isreal. Or the Mosiac Law as you referenced Isreal in Numbers.
Kevin
New member
drbrumley,
Are you suggesting that the falling of the HS in Acts 10:44 didn't appear as burning tongues? Do you have any evidence to support this? In Acts 2:3, when the HS fell upon the apostles, it was described as being as tongues of fire. It gave them the ability to do miraculous things. Why wouldn't it have happened in the same manner (burning tongues) to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44? As I pointed out earlier, in Numbers 11:25, the HS rested upon their heads, just like in Acts 2:3. If that's what it looks like in Acts 2:3, then what's to say it didn't happen when the same Spirit fell upon anybody?
First of all, I consider myself in a state of salvation/state of grace. I won't consider myself "saved" until Jesus judges me worthy of salvation at the judgement seat.
And no, of course I didn't have the cloven tongues upon me. That's my whole point. If spirit baptism saves us, then new converts would have the tongues of fire upon accpeting Christ. This doesn't happen. Don't you know that I'm against the idea that spirit baptism saves us?
Progress.
More progress. By the way, since you are agreeing with that statment, do you realize that baptism in the name of the Lord involves water (Acts 10:47-48)?
Setback. That really has no bearing on the fact that it was impossible to be "in Christ" until Christ died on the cross. One cannot be "in Christ" without being baptized into His death, and one cannot be baptized into a death until that death had actually occured.
Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.
Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.
Ah... back on the road of progress!
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I would never pretend that the people under the Mosaic Law is lumped in with our dispensation.
What I'm "lumping in" is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit spoken of in Numbers 11:25 is the same Spirit spoken of in Acts 10:44. In both cases, that same Spirit had the same effect upon the recipients - miraculous abilities. If one is going to claim that the falling of the HS is what put those people in Acts 10:44 into Christ, then, to be consistent, one would have to hold the same thought for the people in Numbers, even though they were in a different dispensation; because it was the same Spirit with the same effect.
Again, you admitted that the baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ. Well, the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, was done AFTER the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48. That is what puts us into Christ, not the falling of the HS, which is why Peter had them baptized in the name of the Lord after the HS fell on them.
Are you suggesting that the falling of the HS in Acts 10:44 didn't appear as burning tongues? Do you have any evidence to support this? In Acts 2:3, when the HS fell upon the apostles, it was described as being as tongues of fire. It gave them the ability to do miraculous things. Why wouldn't it have happened in the same manner (burning tongues) to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44? As I pointed out earlier, in Numbers 11:25, the HS rested upon their heads, just like in Acts 2:3. If that's what it looks like in Acts 2:3, then what's to say it didn't happen when the same Spirit fell upon anybody?
First of all, I consider myself in a state of salvation/state of grace. I won't consider myself "saved" until Jesus judges me worthy of salvation at the judgement seat.
And no, of course I didn't have the cloven tongues upon me. That's my whole point. If spirit baptism saves us, then new converts would have the tongues of fire upon accpeting Christ. This doesn't happen. Don't you know that I'm against the idea that spirit baptism saves us?
Progress.
More progress. By the way, since you are agreeing with that statment, do you realize that baptism in the name of the Lord involves water (Acts 10:47-48)?
Setback. That really has no bearing on the fact that it was impossible to be "in Christ" until Christ died on the cross. One cannot be "in Christ" without being baptized into His death, and one cannot be baptized into a death until that death had actually occured.
Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.
Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.
Ah... back on the road of progress!
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I would never pretend that the people under the Mosaic Law is lumped in with our dispensation.
What I'm "lumping in" is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit spoken of in Numbers 11:25 is the same Spirit spoken of in Acts 10:44. In both cases, that same Spirit had the same effect upon the recipients - miraculous abilities. If one is going to claim that the falling of the HS is what put those people in Acts 10:44 into Christ, then, to be consistent, one would have to hold the same thought for the people in Numbers, even though they were in a different dispensation; because it was the same Spirit with the same effect.
Again, you admitted that the baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ. Well, the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, was done AFTER the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48. That is what puts us into Christ, not the falling of the HS, which is why Peter had them baptized in the name of the Lord after the HS fell on them.
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agape
New member
More PI
More PI
:down:
More LIES or should I say the "same old lies" once again. Jesus Christ himself said.
Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized [past tense] with water; but ye shall be[future tense] baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days. Jesus makes it very clear what baptism is to take place from then on, which, of course, and obviously, if one can read...HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM. The BAPTISM that would "come not many days hence."
You then say Jesus Christ told them to baptize with water, which the word "WATER" IS NOT IN MENTIONED IN THE VERSE. YOUR OWN PI...short and simple.
See how you just turned the truth of being baptized with water as opposed to what Jesus himself stated which is baptism with Holy Spirit into a BIG LIE???
It you are looking for salvation thru "water baptism" you will never find it..."water "baptism went down the drain when Christ himself brought us salvation and eternal life through "spirit baptism."
More PI
:down:
Your post is just a "longer" version of fallacy. A Religious Private Interpretation if ever I did one...
More LIES or should I say the "same old lies" once again. Jesus Christ himself said.
Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized [past tense] with water; but ye shall be[future tense] baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days. Jesus makes it very clear what baptism is to take place from then on, which, of course, and obviously, if one can read...HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM. The BAPTISM that would "come not many days hence."
You then say Jesus Christ told them to baptize with water, which the word "WATER" IS NOT IN MENTIONED IN THE VERSE. YOUR OWN PI...short and simple.
See how you just turned the truth of being baptized with water as opposed to what Jesus himself stated which is baptism with Holy Spirit into a BIG LIE???
It you are looking for salvation thru "water baptism" you will never find it..."water "baptism went down the drain when Christ himself brought us salvation and eternal life through "spirit baptism."
agape
New member
Kevin,
LOL ...Evangelion responding or not makes no difference to me nor does it change the truth of God's Word ...AND it certainly does not throw out the fact that you have been wrongly dividing the Word of God and turning it into a lie.
Btw, you "continue" to show a great lack of common sense and logic and disrespect when it comes to the scriptures. Also, putting in your own PI will NEVER change the truth.
As far as the active mouthy thing goes which you still got wrong...remember...got off the merry-go-round with you on that one. Ta Ta ...
LOL ...Evangelion responding or not makes no difference to me nor does it change the truth of God's Word ...AND it certainly does not throw out the fact that you have been wrongly dividing the Word of God and turning it into a lie.
Btw, you "continue" to show a great lack of common sense and logic and disrespect when it comes to the scriptures. Also, putting in your own PI will NEVER change the truth.
As far as the active mouthy thing goes which you still got wrong...remember...got off the merry-go-round with you on that one. Ta Ta ...
c.moore
New member
Kevin Quoted:
What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).
Quote c.moore
Sorry, I don`t believe this to be A water baptism scripture, it A spiritual baptism acts 2:38
Is there mentioned any where in Acts 2 about water ,or A pool, or A river,or ocean,sea, ?????
Now in Acts 8:38 I can see and undersstand A water baptism is taken place in this situation.
you can`t just add water onto every where you see A word baptism, that why I started befroe a thread asking what scripture are spiritual baptism and what scripture are water baptism.
I seen people take this scripture about it hard or impossible for A rich man to go through the eye of A needle, so some peole add that all rich people can not be saved so we must be poor so we can go through this needle. Every time they see rich or money they look at this as being damned from God,and they lose thier blessing to be rich, and stay in a low class mentality.
the baptism of John , is also A water baptism, and I can understand that, but some of the scripture you translate is out of context Kevin and you get decieved.
Quote kevin
The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.
Quote c.moore
The Holy spirit in the OT fel on people , but that`s why in the NT they waited so the Spirit could come IN them ,and live IN them, so we can be Baptised in the Holy Spirit,when the Spirit is in us,praise God.
Jesus said: I must go so that the Holy Spirit might come.
Quote Kevin
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore?
Quote c.moore
Being baptized in the blood of Jesus was the conversion of new believers M't:26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The verse doesn`t say like you believe for this is the water of the NT shed for our sin Kevin.
Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Quote Kevin
When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?
Quote c.moore
The Spiritual baptism in the Blood of Jesus is taken place as soon as they believe the Word and accept Jesus blood for remission of thier sin. Notice you said (AFTER) the Word preached ,so they must be born of the Word of God and believe first,then the blood Of Jesus baptism covers or better to explain thier sins was immirge unders the blood of Jesus praise God.
Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac:3:20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
We should be (covered )by Jesus blood,before any natural ritual water baptism showing what the Blood of Jesus did for us praise God, so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. AMEN
Quote Kevin
why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?
Quote c.moore
They did admistrate spiritual baptism when they preached the word with power, and boldness, and repentance by using the blood of Jesus not the water baptism of OT John the baptist.
That why I used those scriptures I showed you in act1, and Ac:4:31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Quote Kevin:
Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit.
Quote c.moore
to be spiritual born again you have to get the information on how this is done like Nicodemus ask Jesus and we know the Jesus is the living Word, so nicodemus first had to be newly taught, or the new birth, so he was born also of the word of God or born into A new teaching.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Joh:15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I hope you can see this , because this is spiritual and the flesh can`t understand the spiritual thing, please look at this with the Holy spirit Kevin.
Born of the water is not meaning we are fishes or frogs, and I don`t think Jesus was reminding Nicodemus that he was born as A human being and he is not A alien or from mars.
Just like we know Jesus is not A door we know the interpretation of the scripture that Jesus is the way to go to Him like going through A door ,so the same interpretation you need by knowledge of knowing what born of water is, and not try to think we are born again in a water pool or river,or natural water or even A water baptism pool.
Like I said before anybody can take scripture out of context and make up thier own doctrine to be true ,and even form thier own religion out of it biblically.
I hope you are not one of these people Kevin, please show yourself facts that say this is saying water baptism rituals.
I guess you are A good swimmer,or you have a pool in your house ,but try to stop putting natural water in verses you see with baptism ,and you need to check out scripture which is protaining to water as the Word of God ,and water to baptism, or bread to eat ,and also bread as also as the Word of God, or when the bible say thier is christian that drink milk is not meaning these christians are real babies that are 3 month years old and they are still drinking milk bottle as christians, or when the bible says some christians eat meat are all grown christains only eat steaks, and hamburgers all thier live get my point Kevin?
I hope this help you to see the truth of our understanding.
Let God bless you
peace
What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).
Quote c.moore
Sorry, I don`t believe this to be A water baptism scripture, it A spiritual baptism acts 2:38
Is there mentioned any where in Acts 2 about water ,or A pool, or A river,or ocean,sea, ?????
Now in Acts 8:38 I can see and undersstand A water baptism is taken place in this situation.
you can`t just add water onto every where you see A word baptism, that why I started befroe a thread asking what scripture are spiritual baptism and what scripture are water baptism.
I seen people take this scripture about it hard or impossible for A rich man to go through the eye of A needle, so some peole add that all rich people can not be saved so we must be poor so we can go through this needle. Every time they see rich or money they look at this as being damned from God,and they lose thier blessing to be rich, and stay in a low class mentality.
the baptism of John , is also A water baptism, and I can understand that, but some of the scripture you translate is out of context Kevin and you get decieved.
Quote kevin
The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.
Quote c.moore
The Holy spirit in the OT fel on people , but that`s why in the NT they waited so the Spirit could come IN them ,and live IN them, so we can be Baptised in the Holy Spirit,when the Spirit is in us,praise God.
Jesus said: I must go so that the Holy Spirit might come.
Quote Kevin
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore?
Quote c.moore
Being baptized in the blood of Jesus was the conversion of new believers M't:26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The verse doesn`t say like you believe for this is the water of the NT shed for our sin Kevin.
Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Quote Kevin
When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?
Quote c.moore
The Spiritual baptism in the Blood of Jesus is taken place as soon as they believe the Word and accept Jesus blood for remission of thier sin. Notice you said (AFTER) the Word preached ,so they must be born of the Word of God and believe first,then the blood Of Jesus baptism covers or better to explain thier sins was immirge unders the blood of Jesus praise God.
Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac:3:20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
We should be (covered )by Jesus blood,before any natural ritual water baptism showing what the Blood of Jesus did for us praise God, so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. AMEN
Quote Kevin
why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?
Quote c.moore
They did admistrate spiritual baptism when they preached the word with power, and boldness, and repentance by using the blood of Jesus not the water baptism of OT John the baptist.
That why I used those scriptures I showed you in act1, and Ac:4:31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Quote Kevin:
Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit.
Quote c.moore
to be spiritual born again you have to get the information on how this is done like Nicodemus ask Jesus and we know the Jesus is the living Word, so nicodemus first had to be newly taught, or the new birth, so he was born also of the word of God or born into A new teaching.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Joh:15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I hope you can see this , because this is spiritual and the flesh can`t understand the spiritual thing, please look at this with the Holy spirit Kevin.
Born of the water is not meaning we are fishes or frogs, and I don`t think Jesus was reminding Nicodemus that he was born as A human being and he is not A alien or from mars.
Just like we know Jesus is not A door we know the interpretation of the scripture that Jesus is the way to go to Him like going through A door ,so the same interpretation you need by knowledge of knowing what born of water is, and not try to think we are born again in a water pool or river,or natural water or even A water baptism pool.
Like I said before anybody can take scripture out of context and make up thier own doctrine to be true ,and even form thier own religion out of it biblically.
I hope you are not one of these people Kevin, please show yourself facts that say this is saying water baptism rituals.
I guess you are A good swimmer,or you have a pool in your house ,but try to stop putting natural water in verses you see with baptism ,and you need to check out scripture which is protaining to water as the Word of God ,and water to baptism, or bread to eat ,and also bread as also as the Word of God, or when the bible say thier is christian that drink milk is not meaning these christians are real babies that are 3 month years old and they are still drinking milk bottle as christians, or when the bible says some christians eat meat are all grown christains only eat steaks, and hamburgers all thier live get my point Kevin?
I hope this help you to see the truth of our understanding.
Let God bless you
peace