The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
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Evangelion
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Kevin, please ask Agape to pass the salt. 
JustAChristian
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More Rhetoric From Agope!
More Rhetoric From Agope!
Agape,
Due to a technical glitch in my answering your post, I lost my entries. This is the best I could do in recovery. My answers are in bold.
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
If eternal life is not potential then death due to sin is not realistic I believe it is for real ( Isaiah 59:1-2). Paul tells the Romans that sin has always been the cause of spiritual death, and will always be the case, even so grace will be present through righteousness as one goes forward to obtain eternal life.
Still wrongly dividing God's Word to MAKE IT FALSELY FIT YOUR THEORY. We have ALREADY OBTAINED ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST. John 5:13; "...We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." When we are saved and born again of God's incorruptible seed, there is no ifs, ands or buts...no guess work...works...WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN US. We DO NOT need to do anything to "obtain" eternal life...JESUS CHRIST DID IT FOR US. Praise God! You can NEVER obtain eternal life by works. I John 2:25 - "And this is THE PROMISE that HE HATH PROMISED US [EVEN] ETERNAL LIFE..
We ALREADY HAVE the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE because WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ALREADY ABIDING IN US.
I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE...CHRIST IS IN ME, THE HOPE OF GLORY. I see my future now in the present because I know the promise of God made to me, which is ETERNAL LIFE. I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. You are so off the Word of God, JAC...you teach the total opposite of the TRUTH...you teach a LIE.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Romans 5:16-21: And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus Christ did what was required and necessary to make righteousness (justification) available for mankind, and thus God's grace may reign by means of righteousness resulting in eternal life by means of Jesus Christ our Lord and SAVIOR. Eternal LIFE - not death! This eternal life is holy spirit-life/seed in us which is available to men and women by means of Jesus Christ our Lord, (our Master). Let's see some twisting of God's Word, which you so easily do.
The Holy Spirit is in all that are forgiven of sins, but not to give them life. Only the word of God can give life. Its life comes by faithful obedience (1 Peter 1:21-22). If you can not easily see this, then really you don't have to worry about your soul. You'll get in with all the others that have no ability to rationalize.
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All these that John spoke to have died physically, therefore, they did not have eternal life.
With that ridiculous statement shows a lack of knowledge, on your part, concerning the Scriptures. We have eternal life abiding in us. We are not, and obviously so, at this present time IMMORTAL. When Christ returns for his Church at the appointed time God has set forth, the dead in Christ will rise up first and PUT ON INCORRUPTION. Those who are still alive at Christ's coming for his Church will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. There is no debating concerning eternal life. We as born-again believes immediately put on immortality at his coming when we shall meet him IN THE AIR. Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. I Thessalonians 4:14-17: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. We are ALREADY SPIRITUALLY SEATED with Christ in heavenly places.
Just like the man said in the movie... "...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!" Your references show nothing except what I have already said, eternal life is potential. There fact that people die proves that life is not eternal presently. Eternal life only comes after the resurrection. All other times it is potential.
Ephesians 2:4-9: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, "HATH" QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED) (6) AND "HATH" [PAST TENSE] RAISED [US] UP TOGETHER, AND MADE [US] TO SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS: (7) That in the AGES TO COME he might SHEW THE "EXCEEDING RICHES" OF HIS GRACE IN [HIS] KINDNESS TOWARD US "THROUGH" CHRIST JESUS. (8) FOR BY "GRACE" ARE YE "SAVED THROUGH FAITH;" AND THAT "NOT OF YOURSELVES" [it is] THE "GIFT" OF GOD. (9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
This reference merely shows that God can forgive one of sins and make that one alive to righteousness in Christ. This is done by hearing and obeying the word (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16). If that person continues to walk in the light, he will continue to have fellowship with God showing eternal life is potential. Eternal life is conditional (Luke 18:22-30).
Can God make it any more PLAIN to the born-again believer?? Open your eyes, JAC...there is so much you are missing out on!
My answers to you have been scripturally sound. You give no evidence to us that the Holy Spirit cleanses of sin, yet you want all to accept this as fact. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ in baptism. (Acts 22:16). If you can show the contrary why don't you do so?
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Only Deity is eternal and this is what John refers to in 1 John 5:11.
I John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that GOD "HATH GIVEN" TO US ETERNAL LIFE, and THIS LIFE IS "IN" HIS SON. (12) HE THAT HATH THE SON HATH LIFE; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD. Where's the so-called "only deity" is eternal?? I really don't know what you're talking about. I guess it's because you still keep making things up as you go.
Since man's life in heaven is conditional (1 John 1:7), failure to be obedient will cause the "once saved" to be lost. (1 Cor. 10:12).
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If we continue in Christ, when we are raised we will not come into condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal. (John 5:24).
Again you have TWISTED THE SCRIPTURES AROUND TO SAY AND MEAN SOMETHING IT DOES NOT. You took the piece of puzzle called "works" and you try to fit it into the GRACE of God and you have distorted the Word of Truth. Here is what John 5:24 is really saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, and BELIEVETH ON HIM that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; "BUT" is passed from death unto life. Where does it say "IF" we continue in Christ?? AND where does it say "when we are raised from the dead"??? See how he makes up his own verses...like the puzzle game I had mentioned? He obviously twisted it around to make it work in his favor. It says he that hears and believes on Him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE., SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. Sounds like the verse is teaching that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE for we HAVE ALREADY, SPIRITUALLY, PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (ETERNAL). You subltly put in "IF" we continue in Christ. You purposely turned God's truth into a lie.
Where does it say "if"? The context of this verse parallels 1 John 1:7, which has "if" and which you can't handle. Salvation is contingent on "hearing God's words" , not like those in the "wayside" (Matthew 13:4, 19), but those which make up the "good ground" (Matthew 13:8, 23) and bring forth a "new crop". These are the ones that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ by hearing and doing what He says. He says to be baptized for the remission of sins and they hear and do it. This makes all the difference. Hath Everlasting Life means that their soul will not come into condemnation if they continue to believe and serve the Lord until they die or until the Lord Jesus returns. They pass from their sinful state of death unto life in Jesus Christ. There is no death in Jesus Christ. They must remain there however to enter into eternal life. (John 8:31). The whole of anything is the sum of it's parts. When you join 1 John 1:7 and other verses that speak of the necessity of continuing in Christ with John 5:14, you will see the whole.
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Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Here we go again, trying to fit in works for salvation and eternal life. So now we need to sow eternal life in order to reap eternal life? How ridiculous. How does one "sow and reap" eternal life? What was Jesus Christ all about? Have we forgotten about him. What about John 3:16? All we are required to do to receive eternal life is TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST. We already know from God's Word including all the scriptures I have quoted to you thus far, prove that the only means whereby we can have eternal life is THROUGH CHRIST. So how can anyone "sow eternal life"?? You need to think about these things, JAC.
If you have a problem with what this inspired apostle has written, take it up with him on the judgement. I am just quoting what he said by inspiration. Do you understand what "sowing to the spirit" means? It doesn't seem like you do. Sowing to the spirit implies a faithfulness in spiritual things. If you are faithful in spiritual things you will reap eternal life. Reaping is the outcome of sowing. No one ever reaps a harvest the same time they sow the seed. As for John 3:16, ..."should not perish" is potential. Don't you know what potential means? That is the last verse I'd think you would try to use as a proof text.
All of us who are born again, have holy spirit-life within us, which is the spirit of Christ, which is eternal life. We are spiritually alive now, and in the future we will receive our spiritual bodies like the Lord Jesus Christ has already received from God. Any works we do into the spirit will remain, they will not be burned-up. If we sow "to the Spirit" in us, in manifestations, we will reap "life" everlasting. In other words, we will reap that which is incorruptible, will not burned.
I don't discount that the Spirit of God is within the "Born Again" (1 Cor. 6:19), but the Spirit will only dwell in a "temple" that is kept clean (1 Cor 3:17).
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You continue to try to use the Holy Spirit as the cleansing agent, but He is not. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ which takes place in the obedient act of being baptized for the remission of sins It takes place by being baptized in holy spirit...not in the old symbolic outward cleansing of water baptism, which showed a baptism would be necessary to "receive" remission of sin--"For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence." The blood of Jesus cleansed us from our sins; however, to receive the cleansing inwardly, one must be born of Spirit, born from above. Why would Jesus tells Nicodemus this if it were not necessary?? The Scriptures make it plain that in order for one to enter into the Kingdom of God he must be born of the Spirit, which is an INWARD cleansing of sin which we received through the blood of Christ. When we are born from above, we receive a NEW NATURE, which is God's Spirit and which is eternal life spirit.
Saying one thing and proving it is something else. You have never shown a verse to show the Holy Spirit as a cleansing agent. In fact, you can't even find "Holy Spirit baptism" as a term in the New Testament. There is many examples in the New Testament of Christians who never were overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit as was the apostles and the house of Cornelius, who were forgiven of sins and saved eternally. There were 3000 saved on Pentecost who never experience Holy Spirit baptism. The Ethiopian nobleman never experience Holy Spirit baptism. I could go on and on, but you know what I am saying is the truth, but "you can't handle the truth"!!!
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1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit) Again, you are stating just the opposite of what this verse is saying. It is most definitely to be "baptized in the holy spirit." He is talking to the elect. Their election and salvation in accordance to the foreknowledge of the Father "Through the sanctification of the Spirit" which one can only receive by baptism in holy spirit. We are sanctified, MADE holy, set apart from the world to love and service God UNTO obedience (belief of the truth), sealed by the blood of Christ. (See Exodus 24:3-8) II Thessalonians 2:13:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Have you ever see anyone "baptized in the Holy Spirit?" Tell us about it. What did it look like. How can you be sure of the conclusion? Tell us about it.
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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)
?? The gift of the Holy Ghost IS to be baptized in the holy spirit!! He said AND BE BAPTIZED AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE "HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT."
Are you asking me to define your premises?
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Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit).
It is referring to a spiritual INNER washing away of sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Definitely referring to BAPTIZED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
By Paul's believing of God's Word as he called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ he received God's gift of holy spirit by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. Note: there was no mention of physical water because physical water bathing, washing or immersion was not and still is not needed nor is it required because it does not wash away any sins since the moment that baptism with holy spirit was established on the day of Pentecost! Again, you interject statements without basis. Jesus was the only one to baptize with the Holy Spirit, but Paul was baptized of Ananias. If Jesus intended to baptize Paul with the Holy Spirit, He could have done it on the road instead of telling (Saul) to go into the city and it will be told him what he MUST DO (Acts 9:6). Paul was later confronted by Ananias who told him that Jesus had selected him as a chosen vessel. He then had to be prepared for the mission through purification of the soul in obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). The Holy Spirit did not purify Paul's soul and no one else's. When you ever come to see this things will become much clearer to you.
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Not only does Christ declare that eternal life is to be received in the world to come
Only according to your private interpretation.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
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his apostles clearly taught it. Hear what Paul further told the Roman church..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).
Again, according to your own private interpretation.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!
For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
The difference is very clear:
The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:
Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God
Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)
Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)
JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!
You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
And like I said before...Like I said before, "...you can't handle the truth!"
JustAChristian
More Rhetoric From Agope!
Agape,
Due to a technical glitch in my answering your post, I lost my entries. This is the best I could do in recovery. My answers are in bold.
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
If eternal life is not potential then death due to sin is not realistic I believe it is for real ( Isaiah 59:1-2). Paul tells the Romans that sin has always been the cause of spiritual death, and will always be the case, even so grace will be present through righteousness as one goes forward to obtain eternal life.
Still wrongly dividing God's Word to MAKE IT FALSELY FIT YOUR THEORY. We have ALREADY OBTAINED ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST. John 5:13; "...We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." When we are saved and born again of God's incorruptible seed, there is no ifs, ands or buts...no guess work...works...WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN US. We DO NOT need to do anything to "obtain" eternal life...JESUS CHRIST DID IT FOR US. Praise God! You can NEVER obtain eternal life by works. I John 2:25 - "And this is THE PROMISE that HE HATH PROMISED US [EVEN] ETERNAL LIFE..
We ALREADY HAVE the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE because WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ALREADY ABIDING IN US.
I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE...CHRIST IS IN ME, THE HOPE OF GLORY. I see my future now in the present because I know the promise of God made to me, which is ETERNAL LIFE. I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. You are so off the Word of God, JAC...you teach the total opposite of the TRUTH...you teach a LIE.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Romans 5:16-21: And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus Christ did what was required and necessary to make righteousness (justification) available for mankind, and thus God's grace may reign by means of righteousness resulting in eternal life by means of Jesus Christ our Lord and SAVIOR. Eternal LIFE - not death! This eternal life is holy spirit-life/seed in us which is available to men and women by means of Jesus Christ our Lord, (our Master). Let's see some twisting of God's Word, which you so easily do.
The Holy Spirit is in all that are forgiven of sins, but not to give them life. Only the word of God can give life. Its life comes by faithful obedience (1 Peter 1:21-22). If you can not easily see this, then really you don't have to worry about your soul. You'll get in with all the others that have no ability to rationalize.
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All these that John spoke to have died physically, therefore, they did not have eternal life.
With that ridiculous statement shows a lack of knowledge, on your part, concerning the Scriptures. We have eternal life abiding in us. We are not, and obviously so, at this present time IMMORTAL. When Christ returns for his Church at the appointed time God has set forth, the dead in Christ will rise up first and PUT ON INCORRUPTION. Those who are still alive at Christ's coming for his Church will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. There is no debating concerning eternal life. We as born-again believes immediately put on immortality at his coming when we shall meet him IN THE AIR. Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. I Thessalonians 4:14-17: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. We are ALREADY SPIRITUALLY SEATED with Christ in heavenly places.
Just like the man said in the movie... "...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!" Your references show nothing except what I have already said, eternal life is potential. There fact that people die proves that life is not eternal presently. Eternal life only comes after the resurrection. All other times it is potential.
Ephesians 2:4-9: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, "HATH" QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED) (6) AND "HATH" [PAST TENSE] RAISED [US] UP TOGETHER, AND MADE [US] TO SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS: (7) That in the AGES TO COME he might SHEW THE "EXCEEDING RICHES" OF HIS GRACE IN [HIS] KINDNESS TOWARD US "THROUGH" CHRIST JESUS. (8) FOR BY "GRACE" ARE YE "SAVED THROUGH FAITH;" AND THAT "NOT OF YOURSELVES" [it is] THE "GIFT" OF GOD. (9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
This reference merely shows that God can forgive one of sins and make that one alive to righteousness in Christ. This is done by hearing and obeying the word (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16). If that person continues to walk in the light, he will continue to have fellowship with God showing eternal life is potential. Eternal life is conditional (Luke 18:22-30).
Can God make it any more PLAIN to the born-again believer?? Open your eyes, JAC...there is so much you are missing out on!
My answers to you have been scripturally sound. You give no evidence to us that the Holy Spirit cleanses of sin, yet you want all to accept this as fact. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ in baptism. (Acts 22:16). If you can show the contrary why don't you do so?
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Only Deity is eternal and this is what John refers to in 1 John 5:11.
I John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that GOD "HATH GIVEN" TO US ETERNAL LIFE, and THIS LIFE IS "IN" HIS SON. (12) HE THAT HATH THE SON HATH LIFE; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD. Where's the so-called "only deity" is eternal?? I really don't know what you're talking about. I guess it's because you still keep making things up as you go.
Since man's life in heaven is conditional (1 John 1:7), failure to be obedient will cause the "once saved" to be lost. (1 Cor. 10:12).
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If we continue in Christ, when we are raised we will not come into condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal. (John 5:24).
Again you have TWISTED THE SCRIPTURES AROUND TO SAY AND MEAN SOMETHING IT DOES NOT. You took the piece of puzzle called "works" and you try to fit it into the GRACE of God and you have distorted the Word of Truth. Here is what John 5:24 is really saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, and BELIEVETH ON HIM that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; "BUT" is passed from death unto life. Where does it say "IF" we continue in Christ?? AND where does it say "when we are raised from the dead"??? See how he makes up his own verses...like the puzzle game I had mentioned? He obviously twisted it around to make it work in his favor. It says he that hears and believes on Him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE., SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. Sounds like the verse is teaching that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE for we HAVE ALREADY, SPIRITUALLY, PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (ETERNAL). You subltly put in "IF" we continue in Christ. You purposely turned God's truth into a lie.
Where does it say "if"? The context of this verse parallels 1 John 1:7, which has "if" and which you can't handle. Salvation is contingent on "hearing God's words" , not like those in the "wayside" (Matthew 13:4, 19), but those which make up the "good ground" (Matthew 13:8, 23) and bring forth a "new crop". These are the ones that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ by hearing and doing what He says. He says to be baptized for the remission of sins and they hear and do it. This makes all the difference. Hath Everlasting Life means that their soul will not come into condemnation if they continue to believe and serve the Lord until they die or until the Lord Jesus returns. They pass from their sinful state of death unto life in Jesus Christ. There is no death in Jesus Christ. They must remain there however to enter into eternal life. (John 8:31). The whole of anything is the sum of it's parts. When you join 1 John 1:7 and other verses that speak of the necessity of continuing in Christ with John 5:14, you will see the whole.
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Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Here we go again, trying to fit in works for salvation and eternal life. So now we need to sow eternal life in order to reap eternal life? How ridiculous. How does one "sow and reap" eternal life? What was Jesus Christ all about? Have we forgotten about him. What about John 3:16? All we are required to do to receive eternal life is TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST. We already know from God's Word including all the scriptures I have quoted to you thus far, prove that the only means whereby we can have eternal life is THROUGH CHRIST. So how can anyone "sow eternal life"?? You need to think about these things, JAC.
If you have a problem with what this inspired apostle has written, take it up with him on the judgement. I am just quoting what he said by inspiration. Do you understand what "sowing to the spirit" means? It doesn't seem like you do. Sowing to the spirit implies a faithfulness in spiritual things. If you are faithful in spiritual things you will reap eternal life. Reaping is the outcome of sowing. No one ever reaps a harvest the same time they sow the seed. As for John 3:16, ..."should not perish" is potential. Don't you know what potential means? That is the last verse I'd think you would try to use as a proof text.
All of us who are born again, have holy spirit-life within us, which is the spirit of Christ, which is eternal life. We are spiritually alive now, and in the future we will receive our spiritual bodies like the Lord Jesus Christ has already received from God. Any works we do into the spirit will remain, they will not be burned-up. If we sow "to the Spirit" in us, in manifestations, we will reap "life" everlasting. In other words, we will reap that which is incorruptible, will not burned.
I don't discount that the Spirit of God is within the "Born Again" (1 Cor. 6:19), but the Spirit will only dwell in a "temple" that is kept clean (1 Cor 3:17).
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You continue to try to use the Holy Spirit as the cleansing agent, but He is not. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ which takes place in the obedient act of being baptized for the remission of sins It takes place by being baptized in holy spirit...not in the old symbolic outward cleansing of water baptism, which showed a baptism would be necessary to "receive" remission of sin--"For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence." The blood of Jesus cleansed us from our sins; however, to receive the cleansing inwardly, one must be born of Spirit, born from above. Why would Jesus tells Nicodemus this if it were not necessary?? The Scriptures make it plain that in order for one to enter into the Kingdom of God he must be born of the Spirit, which is an INWARD cleansing of sin which we received through the blood of Christ. When we are born from above, we receive a NEW NATURE, which is God's Spirit and which is eternal life spirit.
Saying one thing and proving it is something else. You have never shown a verse to show the Holy Spirit as a cleansing agent. In fact, you can't even find "Holy Spirit baptism" as a term in the New Testament. There is many examples in the New Testament of Christians who never were overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit as was the apostles and the house of Cornelius, who were forgiven of sins and saved eternally. There were 3000 saved on Pentecost who never experience Holy Spirit baptism. The Ethiopian nobleman never experience Holy Spirit baptism. I could go on and on, but you know what I am saying is the truth, but "you can't handle the truth"!!!
quote:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit) Again, you are stating just the opposite of what this verse is saying. It is most definitely to be "baptized in the holy spirit." He is talking to the elect. Their election and salvation in accordance to the foreknowledge of the Father "Through the sanctification of the Spirit" which one can only receive by baptism in holy spirit. We are sanctified, MADE holy, set apart from the world to love and service God UNTO obedience (belief of the truth), sealed by the blood of Christ. (See Exodus 24:3-8) II Thessalonians 2:13:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Have you ever see anyone "baptized in the Holy Spirit?" Tell us about it. What did it look like. How can you be sure of the conclusion? Tell us about it.
quote:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)
?? The gift of the Holy Ghost IS to be baptized in the holy spirit!! He said AND BE BAPTIZED AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE "HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT."
Are you asking me to define your premises?
quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit).
It is referring to a spiritual INNER washing away of sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Definitely referring to BAPTIZED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
By Paul's believing of God's Word as he called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ he received God's gift of holy spirit by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. Note: there was no mention of physical water because physical water bathing, washing or immersion was not and still is not needed nor is it required because it does not wash away any sins since the moment that baptism with holy spirit was established on the day of Pentecost! Again, you interject statements without basis. Jesus was the only one to baptize with the Holy Spirit, but Paul was baptized of Ananias. If Jesus intended to baptize Paul with the Holy Spirit, He could have done it on the road instead of telling (Saul) to go into the city and it will be told him what he MUST DO (Acts 9:6). Paul was later confronted by Ananias who told him that Jesus had selected him as a chosen vessel. He then had to be prepared for the mission through purification of the soul in obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:21-22). The Holy Spirit did not purify Paul's soul and no one else's. When you ever come to see this things will become much clearer to you.
quote:
Not only does Christ declare that eternal life is to be received in the world to come
Only according to your private interpretation.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
quote:
his apostles clearly taught it. Hear what Paul further told the Roman church..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).
Again, according to your own private interpretation.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!
For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
The difference is very clear:
The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:
Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God
Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)
Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)
JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!
You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
And like I said before...Like I said before, "...you can't handle the truth!"
JustAChristian
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Evangelion
New member
Kevin, please tell Agape that I asked for the salt, I didn't offer it to anybody!
Sheesh!
Sheesh!
JustAChristian
New member
Answering Your Post.
Answering Your Post.
Agape,
I have entered answers to the lastest Post you sent me. They are above this original entry to Kevin.
JustAChristian
Answering Your Post.
Originally posted by agape
LOL ...Kevin, please ask Evangelion if I would like plain or iodized salt?
Agape,
I have entered answers to the lastest Post you sent me. They are above this original entry to Kevin.
JustAChristian
Kevin
New member
Agape,
Acts 19:1-5
1) While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
2) And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3) And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
4) And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
5) On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
As I said, they are two different baptisms. Also, as mentioned, baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, as proven in Acts 10:47-48:
Acts 10:47-48
47) "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
Baptism in the name of the Lord uses water.
So, when you say:
"SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.
Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried."
You're not even talking about the same baptism that we are. Baptism in the name of the Lord was commanded by Jesus in the Great Commission, after He died on the cross and was resurrected. When we are baptized in His name, we are baptized into His death. Baptism in the name of the Lord didn't exist before the death on the cross. So of course you can't be buried into His death with John's batpism. None of us ever said it did.
You do have a short term memory, don't you! I've already pointed this out to you. If you look one of your responses on page 113 of this thread, you'll see that I did indeed ask you why you were using baptism of John, AND YOU BLEW ME OFF WITH A SNYDE REMARK! Does the following text sound familiar?:
I pointed out to YOU that you were referencing the wrong baptism, and you blew me off... and then you get offended when I mention the SAME exact thing to somebody else! The same thing, and I said it to you first! So, I already tried to send you the message!
Acts 19:1-5
1) While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
2) And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3) And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
4) And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
5) On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
As I said, they are two different baptisms. Also, as mentioned, baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, as proven in Acts 10:47-48:
Acts 10:47-48
47) "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
Baptism in the name of the Lord uses water.
So, when you say:
"SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.
Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried."
You're not even talking about the same baptism that we are. Baptism in the name of the Lord was commanded by Jesus in the Great Commission, after He died on the cross and was resurrected. When we are baptized in His name, we are baptized into His death. Baptism in the name of the Lord didn't exist before the death on the cross. So of course you can't be buried into His death with John's batpism. None of us ever said it did.
You do have a short term memory, don't you! I've already pointed this out to you. If you look one of your responses on page 113 of this thread, you'll see that I did indeed ask you why you were using baptism of John, AND YOU BLEW ME OFF WITH A SNYDE REMARK! Does the following text sound familiar?:
I pointed out to YOU that you were referencing the wrong baptism, and you blew me off... and then you get offended when I mention the SAME exact thing to somebody else! The same thing, and I said it to you first! So, I already tried to send you the message!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Kevin,
Acts 19:4-6 should be punctuaded in the following way:
Then said Paul,"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,saying unto the people that they should believe on Him Who should come after him,that is,on Christ Jesus.When they heard,they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them,the Holy Spirit came upon them...
They had received the baptism of John,that is by water.But they had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit (see Acts1:5).So in order to have the Holy Spirit come upon them Paul laid his hands on them.
They were not re-baptized with water.Paul merely laid his hands on them so that the Holy Spirit would come to them,just as Peter and John had done at Acts 8:15-17:
"Who,when they were come down,prayed for them,that they might receive the Holy Spirit;For as yet He was fallen upon none of them;only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Then laid they their hands on them,and they received the Holy Spirit"(Acts8:15-17).
And those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death.And it is by the Holy Spirit that one is baptized INTO CHRIST (1Cor.12:13,27).
The verse does not say ,"As many of us who were baptized IN THE NAME OF CHRIST were baptized into His death".
In His grace,--Jerry
Acts 19:4-6 should be punctuaded in the following way:
Then said Paul,"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,saying unto the people that they should believe on Him Who should come after him,that is,on Christ Jesus.When they heard,they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them,the Holy Spirit came upon them...
They had received the baptism of John,that is by water.But they had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit (see Acts1:5).So in order to have the Holy Spirit come upon them Paul laid his hands on them.
They were not re-baptized with water.Paul merely laid his hands on them so that the Holy Spirit would come to them,just as Peter and John had done at Acts 8:15-17:
"Who,when they were come down,prayed for them,that they might receive the Holy Spirit;For as yet He was fallen upon none of them;only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Then laid they their hands on them,and they received the Holy Spirit"(Acts8:15-17).
And those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death.And it is by the Holy Spirit that one is baptized INTO CHRIST (1Cor.12:13,27).
The verse does not say ,"As many of us who were baptized IN THE NAME OF CHRIST were baptized into His death".
In His grace,--Jerry
Kevin
New member
Agape,
Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation:
Romans 10:10
10) For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
Yeah, becase they don't do the commandments of men, not of God. This doens't have any bearing on confessing Christ with the mouth.
Also, those who confess Jesus before men, Jesus will confess before the Father. Those who deny Him won't be confessed before the Father (Matt. 10:30).
We are to confess Him with the mouth before man. You can't do that without actually doing just that.
Thought you made up your mind. If you are going to bring this up (again), answer my points.
Yup. When somebody repents and is baptized because of their belief, their belief has put them in God's grace (just as in Acts 2:38). Simply believing and not acting upon that belief does no good. How can you "OBEY" the gospel without DOING something (will you ever answer this?)?
Wrong. It is only if we endure to the end, keeping our Lord's commandments, and being found worthy by Christ will we be saved.
Wrong. Already been addressed in a previous post.
Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation:
Romans 10:10
10) For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
Yeah, becase they don't do the commandments of men, not of God. This doens't have any bearing on confessing Christ with the mouth.
Also, those who confess Jesus before men, Jesus will confess before the Father. Those who deny Him won't be confessed before the Father (Matt. 10:30).
We are to confess Him with the mouth before man. You can't do that without actually doing just that.
Thought you made up your mind. If you are going to bring this up (again), answer my points.
Yup. When somebody repents and is baptized because of their belief, their belief has put them in God's grace (just as in Acts 2:38). Simply believing and not acting upon that belief does no good. How can you "OBEY" the gospel without DOING something (will you ever answer this?)?
Wrong. It is only if we endure to the end, keeping our Lord's commandments, and being found worthy by Christ will we be saved.
Wrong. Already been addressed in a previous post.
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Kevin
New member
Jerry,
Spirit baptism doesn't save anybody, Jerry. It imparts miraculous gifts, which is the result of Paul's laying on of hands in Acts 19:6. When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death (which I'm sure you already knew). Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus represents the death burial and resurrection of a believer.
In water baptism -
Paul says in Romans 6 that we are baptized into His death, we put away our man of sin by burying him, and we share in the likeness of His resurrection. Only water baptism can represent these three things (See above). How does spirit baptism represent this?
Yes they were. They were baptized again after John's baptism in the name of the Lord, which also uses water (Acts 10:47-48).
This is not referring to the falling of the Holy Spirit as spoken of in Acts 2:4 or Acts 10:44. We are led by the Spirit into the baptism of the Lord for the remission of sins. How do I know it's baptism in the name of the Lord? Because that's what Paul practiced, and it is the only baptism that was commanded by Jesus for all nations. Paul would not preach one baptism, and practice another.
Holy Spirit baptism is recorded in Acts 2:3 as looking like tongues of fire that rested on the apostle's heads. So, when was the last time you saw this happen to a new convert?
Spirit baptism doesn't save anybody, Jerry. It imparts miraculous gifts, which is the result of Paul's laying on of hands in Acts 19:6. When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death (which I'm sure you already knew). Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus represents the death burial and resurrection of a believer.
In water baptism -
- You go down into the water. This represents the death.
- You completely immersed in water. This represents the burial.
- You come out of the water. This represents the resurrection... we are born again.
Paul says in Romans 6 that we are baptized into His death, we put away our man of sin by burying him, and we share in the likeness of His resurrection. Only water baptism can represent these three things (See above). How does spirit baptism represent this?
Yes they were. They were baptized again after John's baptism in the name of the Lord, which also uses water (Acts 10:47-48).
This is not referring to the falling of the Holy Spirit as spoken of in Acts 2:4 or Acts 10:44. We are led by the Spirit into the baptism of the Lord for the remission of sins. How do I know it's baptism in the name of the Lord? Because that's what Paul practiced, and it is the only baptism that was commanded by Jesus for all nations. Paul would not preach one baptism, and practice another.
Holy Spirit baptism is recorded in Acts 2:3 as looking like tongues of fire that rested on the apostle's heads. So, when was the last time you saw this happen to a new convert?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Kevin,
At Acts 19 the question is not whether or not they had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or not,but instead the question is whether or not they had received the Holy Spirit.This is NOT about receiving a new "water baptism",but instead it is about receiving the Spirit.
And when they said that they had not received the Spirit,Paul then laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
They had been baptized with water before the time that the Holy Spirit was given.So they did not need a new water baptism,but instead needed Paul to give them the Holy Spirit.
And if they were given a new baptism,as you maintain,and that baptism is supposed to result in them receiving "the gift of the Holy Spirit"(see Acts2:38),THEN why didn´t they receive the Holy Spirit?
Why was it still necessary for Paul to lay his hands on them before they ever received the Holy Spirit?
In His grace,--Jerry
At Acts 19 the question is not whether or not they had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or not,but instead the question is whether or not they had received the Holy Spirit.This is NOT about receiving a new "water baptism",but instead it is about receiving the Spirit.
And when they said that they had not received the Spirit,Paul then laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
They had been baptized with water before the time that the Holy Spirit was given.So they did not need a new water baptism,but instead needed Paul to give them the Holy Spirit.
And if they were given a new baptism,as you maintain,and that baptism is supposed to result in them receiving "the gift of the Holy Spirit"(see Acts2:38),THEN why didn´t they receive the Holy Spirit?
Why was it still necessary for Paul to lay his hands on them before they ever received the Holy Spirit?
In His grace,--Jerry
LOL - It is easy to laugh when you are in denial...
LOL - It is easy to laugh when you are in denial...
agapee -
You are so busy laughing, you are missing the point (actually all of them - lol!! Reminds me of my daughter when she was 2 yo.)
Repentance and confession - AFTER - salvation?? Not only are you missing the conversation, you are reading some book other than the Bible - LOL!
Why not just answer my question forthrightly -
Does man, must man do ANYTHING to appropriate salvation from God?? (How much honesty you got agape??)
I guess I did not realize that you are a Calvinist. My apologies. You believe that the HS "zaps" the "pre-selected" ones, huh - lol!
If so, why are you wasting your time preaching? Let the HS "zap" the ones meant to be zapped and have another V-8 cocktail.
As for Romans 10:9 - it is only a part of the picture. Nothing about repentance in Romans 10:9 is there. (LOL!)
And I am sure that you "missed" by post on Ephesians 2:8 - that there ARE works to do, these just aren't works that allow one to boast. They are the works God afore prepared for su to do - see verse 10 (if your Bible goes that far - lol!)
Oh, but I see that it did. I guess you think that those "works" in verse 10 are somehow relegated to everything that happens AFTER salvation. Is the something in that verse that makes you think that "works" cannot start BEFORE salvation? To clarify, is there something there to make you think that there is nothing for man to do BEFORE he appropriates salvation from God?
Nope - not a "boaster" - just obedient. That means you must be a "flounder" - lol.
Eh - that enuf for you... enjoy your nap - LOL !
(Lol.)
LOL - It is easy to laugh when you are in denial...
agapee -
You are so busy laughing, you are missing the point (actually all of them - lol!! Reminds me of my daughter when she was 2 yo.)
Repentance and confession - AFTER - salvation?? Not only are you missing the conversation, you are reading some book other than the Bible - LOL!
Why not just answer my question forthrightly -
Does man, must man do ANYTHING to appropriate salvation from God?? (How much honesty you got agape??)
I guess I did not realize that you are a Calvinist. My apologies. You believe that the HS "zaps" the "pre-selected" ones, huh - lol!
If so, why are you wasting your time preaching? Let the HS "zap" the ones meant to be zapped and have another V-8 cocktail.
As for Romans 10:9 - it is only a part of the picture. Nothing about repentance in Romans 10:9 is there. (LOL!)
And I am sure that you "missed" by post on Ephesians 2:8 - that there ARE works to do, these just aren't works that allow one to boast. They are the works God afore prepared for su to do - see verse 10 (if your Bible goes that far - lol!)
Oh, but I see that it did. I guess you think that those "works" in verse 10 are somehow relegated to everything that happens AFTER salvation. Is the something in that verse that makes you think that "works" cannot start BEFORE salvation? To clarify, is there something there to make you think that there is nothing for man to do BEFORE he appropriates salvation from God?
Nope - not a "boaster" - just obedient. That means you must be a "flounder" - lol.
Eh - that enuf for you... enjoy your nap - LOL !
(Lol.)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Apollos,
You say that "works" are needed for salvation,but not "works" that one could boast about.
So you are saying that we must do some "works".
But what does Scripture say about those who do works:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not recokened of grace but of debt.But to him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness"(Ro.4:4,5).
How can you do any "works" and not be counted as one "who worketh"?
Don´t you realize that we are "justified FREELY by His grace"?
If we have to do ANY "works" in order to obtain salvation,then it can no longer be considered a gift.
And that is why Paul says,"it is of faith,that it might be by grace"(Ro.4:15).
Any ground other than faith is inconsisent with grace.
But you,Apollos,are so intent on insisting that one cannot be saved apart from "works" that you overthrow your reason and can delude yourself into believing that a "gift" has to be worked for.
So tell us.Exactly which works are necessary in order for the sinner to obtain eternal life?Remember,these works are not the kind that one can boast about.
Please do not leave out any of the necessary "works".
In His grace,--Jerry
You say that "works" are needed for salvation,but not "works" that one could boast about.
So you are saying that we must do some "works".
But what does Scripture say about those who do works:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not recokened of grace but of debt.But to him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness"(Ro.4:4,5).
How can you do any "works" and not be counted as one "who worketh"?
Don´t you realize that we are "justified FREELY by His grace"?
If we have to do ANY "works" in order to obtain salvation,then it can no longer be considered a gift.
And that is why Paul says,"it is of faith,that it might be by grace"(Ro.4:15).
Any ground other than faith is inconsisent with grace.
But you,Apollos,are so intent on insisting that one cannot be saved apart from "works" that you overthrow your reason and can delude yourself into believing that a "gift" has to be worked for.
So tell us.Exactly which works are necessary in order for the sinner to obtain eternal life?Remember,these works are not the kind that one can boast about.
Please do not leave out any of the necessary "works".
In His grace,--Jerry
agape
New member
Kevin,
Romans 10:10,11:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
It's all a matter of believing on him and not as I stated "bumping the gums." All believing comes from the heart otherwise it is just mental assent.
quote:
Matthew 15:8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me."
quote:
When we confess with/in "our" mouth...we are saying, agreeing and accepting within ourselves the Lord Jesus as our savior from sin.. We don't make ourselves "say" it...it's already there.
quote:
God answered your question via His Word, but again it went over your head. Here we go again
Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
quote:
Acts 16:30,31:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
quote:
Getting saved is easy. It is a one-time occurrence and is permanent.
quote:
When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.
With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself, you believe and agree that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior from sin and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. This is what you are saying and confessing deep down inside of you. This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar for He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast. Again, God meant what He said and said what He meant, NOT OF WORKS. Again, stop putting works into where and when God DOES NOT.
Romans 10:10,11:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
It's all a matter of believing on him and not as I stated "bumping the gums." All believing comes from the heart otherwise it is just mental assent.
quote:
Matthew 15:8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me."
Hello? The point being made is that anyone can "say" with his mouth I believe or I confess and not mean any of it. They may say a lot of things, but their "hearts" were far from him. Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord has to come from the heart. It's not in saying it out loud that gets you save, it's confessing and believing it from the heart.
This verse, within the context, is saying that if they confess Jesus "before men" he will confess them before God. Romans 10:9 does NOT SAY to confess with our mouth "before men." He is saying if you confess, you are saying and agreeing in yourself, not before men, that Jesus Christ is your savior from sin. It has to be believed.
quote:
When we confess with/in "our" mouth...we are saying, agreeing and accepting within ourselves the Lord Jesus as our savior from sin.. We don't make ourselves "say" it...it's already there.
Again, PI on your part. Where does it say to confess "before men"???
quote:
God answered your question via His Word, but again it went over your head. Here we go again
Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
Having a problem with those verses cuz it makes it clear that it is NOT BY WORKS??
quote:
Acts 16:30,31:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believing in Christ as your savior from sin and believing that God raised him from the dead automatically gets one baptized in the holy spirit. No effort on my part. I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that God raise him from the dead a long time ago. I was born again but didn't know it until I really started to study God's Word and manifested God's spirit in me, which speaking in tongues was one, that I knew for sure. Simply believing in Christ as your savior, the one who did all the work for you cuz you couldn't do it, takes no works at all. You don't work to believe that Christ died for your sins and redeemed you...you just do.
quote:
Getting saved is easy. It is a one-time occurrence and is permanent.
For by grace are ye saved, NOT OF WORKS...lest any man should boast. Are ye boasting here?? Sounds like it. Tsk Tsk.
quote:
When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.
You really need to stop telling God that He is wrong. After all, HE IS GOD, and what HE SAYS, GOES.
c.moore
New member
You ask Kevin
Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:
Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God, and this spiritual baptism is in God kingdom because God is Spirit, and God knows that the spiritual thing last forever.
You can`t represent the spiritual in the spiritual, because you can`t see it, and to represent mean: (Webter dictionary) to present an image, to describe (as) being of a certain kind,to be a fair sample of,TO BE A SYMBOL FOR.
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
If I also represent the president in a certain land ,the president will have to be a president before I can represent him or her, so is the spiritual baptism.
The person spiritual baptized has to first baptized in the spirit before coming out of any water or going into the water to represent their baptism,not the way you interpretate it to be.
So the question you are asking using the word represent is out of context, and to all the question you ask has to be no, because I proved you can`t represent the real spritual baptism with the spiritual,because you can`t see the things being done in the natural as in the spiritual, that why we do the water baptism to show what really has happen before God for you, and the natural life can see this, like the Lord Supper is A good example.
I think the baptism for you is like the Lord supper understanding for the catholics.
They believe the Lord supper is the real thing, and you believe the water baptismo is the real thing, and tI think you know that the Lord supper is only A symbol, and you can explain this doctrine, so is for us with your water baptism doctrine we know it is not the whole truth, and there is a lack of knowledge.
I forgot to say also that no way is A president first must be represented, and after he is represented he is then A president like you believe or interpretate the bible.
Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
Death is not (represent) but death is DONE in the spirit baptism.
A. Spiritual Baptism Identifies us with Jesus (Rom.6:1-5).
1. In 5:20, Paul made a profound statement, "But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." One of my professors said that is the key phrase of the whole Bible.
2. V. 1 asks a logical question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If our sin showcases God’s grace, then shouldn’t we continue to sin? Paul says, "Certainly not." Just because cheating on your faithful spouse makes them seem even more faithful, this is no reason to commit adultery!
3. Note v. 3. "as many of us as were baptized into Christ
Jesus were baptized into His death." This is not water baptism or we must conclude that we need water baptism for salvation. We were immersed or "united together" (v. 5) in Christ’s death.
4. This is a very difficult passage. Basically it means that our salvation means that our old self, the old man, our sin nature died with Christ on the cross. We were "baptized" or "united together in the likeness of His death." When you were saved, your old self died with Jesus.
Quote Kevin
Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
There is no representation in the spiritual baptism , but the spiritual baptism does really take place in the spirit.
Rom 6:5. By virtue of spiritual baptism, we were "buried with Him through baptism into death" and "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" just as Jesus was raised. Therefore we should "walk in newness of life."
Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
6. Look closely at v. 5. We were "united together [immersed - baptized] in the likeness of His death" and therefore we were also baptized or immersed "in the likeness of His resurrection." We are completely identified with Jesus!
8. Spiritual baptism means that we vicariously (1)experienced the death, (2)burial and(3) resurrection of Christ.
We are so identified with Him that we no longer live, but He lives through us. Gal 2:20 says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Spiritual Baptism identifies us with Jesus
I hope this answered your question Kevin.
I did the best I can to show you the truth , and if you can`t accept this the only God can convince you like God did to paul when he was killing the christian with all his heart for God he thought.
Let God bless you
peace
Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:
Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God, and this spiritual baptism is in God kingdom because God is Spirit, and God knows that the spiritual thing last forever.
You can`t represent the spiritual in the spiritual, because you can`t see it, and to represent mean: (Webter dictionary) to present an image, to describe (as) being of a certain kind,to be a fair sample of,TO BE A SYMBOL FOR.
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
If I also represent the president in a certain land ,the president will have to be a president before I can represent him or her, so is the spiritual baptism.
The person spiritual baptized has to first baptized in the spirit before coming out of any water or going into the water to represent their baptism,not the way you interpretate it to be.
So the question you are asking using the word represent is out of context, and to all the question you ask has to be no, because I proved you can`t represent the real spritual baptism with the spiritual,because you can`t see the things being done in the natural as in the spiritual, that why we do the water baptism to show what really has happen before God for you, and the natural life can see this, like the Lord Supper is A good example.
I think the baptism for you is like the Lord supper understanding for the catholics.
They believe the Lord supper is the real thing, and you believe the water baptismo is the real thing, and tI think you know that the Lord supper is only A symbol, and you can explain this doctrine, so is for us with your water baptism doctrine we know it is not the whole truth, and there is a lack of knowledge.
I forgot to say also that no way is A president first must be represented, and after he is represented he is then A president like you believe or interpretate the bible.
Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
Death is not (represent) but death is DONE in the spirit baptism.
A. Spiritual Baptism Identifies us with Jesus (Rom.6:1-5).
1. In 5:20, Paul made a profound statement, "But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." One of my professors said that is the key phrase of the whole Bible.
2. V. 1 asks a logical question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If our sin showcases God’s grace, then shouldn’t we continue to sin? Paul says, "Certainly not." Just because cheating on your faithful spouse makes them seem even more faithful, this is no reason to commit adultery!
3. Note v. 3. "as many of us as were baptized into Christ
Jesus were baptized into His death." This is not water baptism or we must conclude that we need water baptism for salvation. We were immersed or "united together" (v. 5) in Christ’s death.
4. This is a very difficult passage. Basically it means that our salvation means that our old self, the old man, our sin nature died with Christ on the cross. We were "baptized" or "united together in the likeness of His death." When you were saved, your old self died with Jesus.
Quote Kevin
Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
There is no representation in the spiritual baptism , but the spiritual baptism does really take place in the spirit.
Rom 6:5. By virtue of spiritual baptism, we were "buried with Him through baptism into death" and "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" just as Jesus was raised. Therefore we should "walk in newness of life."
Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
Quote c.moore
6. Look closely at v. 5. We were "united together [immersed - baptized] in the likeness of His death" and therefore we were also baptized or immersed "in the likeness of His resurrection." We are completely identified with Jesus!
8. Spiritual baptism means that we vicariously (1)experienced the death, (2)burial and(3) resurrection of Christ.
We are so identified with Him that we no longer live, but He lives through us. Gal 2:20 says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Spiritual Baptism identifies us with Jesus
I hope this answered your question Kevin.
I did the best I can to show you the truth , and if you can`t accept this the only God can convince you like God did to paul when he was killing the christian with all his heart for God he thought.
Let God bless you
peace
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agape
New member
To All The Water Baptism Fellows:
Actually, there are more than 3 stages to being baptized in the holy spirit. When Christ ascended to His Father and sat down at His right hand, we sat down with him. We are already "spiritually" seated in heavenly places. I like to see water baptism do that one. We have already, "spiritually" passed from death unto eternal life and all hell can't stop us. I would also like to see water baptism accomplish that one too. Here are some of the spiritual blessings and benefits received via the holy spirit.
Water baptism does not accomplish an inward spiritual birth and all that spiritually comes with the new birth. Baptism in the "holy spirit" is the only way one can be born-again or born from above, receive holy-spirit life, which is incorruptible and eternal and enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus Christ made it very clear that one MUST be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the Kingdom of God. However, through one's blindness, which Satan is good at doing, what Christ said does not matter. In spite of the bold truth in Jesus Christ giving precedence to spirit baptism there are still those who give precedence to water baptism, discarding the very words of Jesus Christ himself. Baffling to the mind...isn't it?
Water baptism is limited and insignificant and it cannot give anything spiritual to anyone. It will never give anyone what all of Ephesians declares we have in Christ Jesus, now and in the future. I can go on and on of course; however, God did give His Word for us to read, study and learn all that Christ accomplished for the born-again believer.
So why do Christians believe water baptism is necessary? I believe it's just plain ignorance and blindness due to what other religious people have taught them. They defend a gospel that does not exist and they lose out on the greatness of what God made available to the born-again Christian. Once again, Satan has blinded the minds of those who hold onto man-made doctrines of works for salvation, and which, btw, will NEVER WORK.
Actually, there are more than 3 stages to being baptized in the holy spirit. When Christ ascended to His Father and sat down at His right hand, we sat down with him. We are already "spiritually" seated in heavenly places. I like to see water baptism do that one. We have already, "spiritually" passed from death unto eternal life and all hell can't stop us. I would also like to see water baptism accomplish that one too. Here are some of the spiritual blessings and benefits received via the holy spirit.
Water baptism does not accomplish an inward spiritual birth and all that spiritually comes with the new birth. Baptism in the "holy spirit" is the only way one can be born-again or born from above, receive holy-spirit life, which is incorruptible and eternal and enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus Christ made it very clear that one MUST be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the Kingdom of God. However, through one's blindness, which Satan is good at doing, what Christ said does not matter. In spite of the bold truth in Jesus Christ giving precedence to spirit baptism there are still those who give precedence to water baptism, discarding the very words of Jesus Christ himself. Baffling to the mind...isn't it?
Water baptism is limited and insignificant and it cannot give anything spiritual to anyone. It will never give anyone what all of Ephesians declares we have in Christ Jesus, now and in the future. I can go on and on of course; however, God did give His Word for us to read, study and learn all that Christ accomplished for the born-again believer.
So why do Christians believe water baptism is necessary? I believe it's just plain ignorance and blindness due to what other religious people have taught them. They defend a gospel that does not exist and they lose out on the greatness of what God made available to the born-again Christian. Once again, Satan has blinded the minds of those who hold onto man-made doctrines of works for salvation, and which, btw, will NEVER WORK.
Evangelion
New member
Kevin - I asked you to ask Agape to pass the salt because I'm not talking to Agape anymore, and I don't think Agape's talking to me.
Oh, and please tell Agape that I'll pass the salt back when I've finished with it.
Oh, and please tell Agape that I'll pass the salt back when I've finished with it.
JustAChristian
New member
More Rhetoric and No Scriptures
More Rhetoric and No Scriptures
Did everyone notice Agape's latest post. He had a lot to say with not a single proof text. Where does this leave him? Paul had something to say on that point.
1 Cor. 14:37-38
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
JustAChristian
More Rhetoric and No Scriptures
Did everyone notice Agape's latest post. He had a lot to say with not a single proof text. Where does this leave him? Paul had something to say on that point.
1 Cor. 14:37-38
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
JustAChristian