The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
one can accept Christ and then live a complete life of sin with no repentance and still be saved. Talk about blindly following somebody's unbiblical theories....

Don't you have any depth, heart or insight to God's Word at all? Were you raised under strict "religious" teachings?

If one is truly saved and filled with the holy spirit and has the love of God shed abroad in his/her heart, he/she will not live a "complete life of sin" as you put it and with no repentance"...LOL. This sounds more like an unsaved sinner who doesn't give a hoot. However, and I say this with an "IF"...even "if" someone lived a complete life of sin, which I doubt, and "if" there is no repentance, which I doubt, that person is STILL SAVED.

No one, and I mean absolutely no one was born again until the day of Pentecost.

To be born the first time one has to have seed planted. To be born again is to have the seed of God in Christ born within and this seed is spirit and life.

I Peter 1:23: gives a characteristic of Christ's seed which a person receives when he is born again.

I Peter 1:23:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

The first time a person is born, he is born of corruptible seed; but when is born again he is, according to I Peter 1:23; "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible."

I John 3:9:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whoever is born of God must have God's seed in him. When the natural man is born again, the part of his being which he does not commit sin in is in the seed of God which is incorruptible. In his body and soul part, the flesh, he still commits sin.

I John 3:9 states that a born-again person cannot sin because he is born of God. The first time we were born, we were born of our earthly father and mother. But when are born again we are born of our heavenly Father, of God, and His seed remains in us and in it we cannot sin. That is why His seed in us is eternal life. It is eternal because God is eternal, and it is life because God is life.

Eternal life becomes ours as body-and-soul men and women when we are born again of God's spirit.

I John 3:5:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

One cannot enter into the Kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit, which is eternal-life spirit. This eternal life spirit is seed which is incorruptible. It cannot be taken away or destroyed. It's permanent.

If you want to use OSAS...which is not found in the scriptures, fine, go ahead. God's Word tells me I have eternal life spirit in me and I cannot sin in the spirit because it is God's eternal-life seed in me...it is incorruptible.

Jesus Christ is our complete, full and perfect sacrifice for sin. He paid the price for sin...he did it and it IS FINISHED. He made the gift of holy spirit availabe to all who believe. To be born from above, born again of God's Spirit is to confess Jesus our savior from sin and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. At that moment we are filled with power from on high, we are filled with the righeousness of God, we are redeemed, justified and we are sanctified by His spirit which we are filled with and which is life and which is eternal, incorruptible seed.

Now if you want to continue to add water/works to what God in Christ has already wrought in those who are saved, born again and have eternal life, then do so. I'll not waste my time thinking I can do a better job than what God did in Christ for us.

The good works that we do is not to get saved, but it is because we are saved.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; BUT the GIFT of God [is] ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Salvation and eternal life is God's GIFT to us through His Son, Jesus Christ...NOT OF WORKS...NOT OF WATER BAPTISM...BUT THROUGH CHRIST ALONE.

For God SO LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH on him should NOT PERISH BUT have EVERLASTING LIFE.

No works...no water baptism, for one MUST be BORN OF GOD, baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT, to enter into the Kingdom of God

PS: I'm not saying that because we are saved and have eternal life that we can go ahead and sin. So don''t let no one lay that one on me. The grace of God is not to be used as a license to sin to do whatever we please. There are consequences to sin, which is to break fellowship with God. However, God has left no stone unturned. If we confess our sins God is just to forgive us our sins and through the blood of Jesus Christ, our sins are cleansed and we can get back in harmony and fellowship with our heavenly Father. There are consequences to sin, which is to not walk in the light as God is light. Even a believer can err, miss the mark and walk in darkness. However, when we do sin we can never lose our salvation. We may lose out on the blessings because of our sinning, but never our salvation.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Originally posted by agape
Well I know I'll be there cuz my sins were totally remitted by the blood of Jesus Christ. I'm saved and have God's eternal-life spirit and incorruptible seed in me.

If Christ, our redeemer and savior did not totally cleanse us from sin, once and for all, then you will die a "sinner." If this is the case, and since no one at all can walk a perfectly sinless life then I guess I won't see you in heaven cuz there will be no sinners there.

My word, we do have so many "religious" people here who think they do God a favor by rejecting their full salvation in Christ only.

Again, you show you lack of knowledge of the scriptures, for instance...

Mark 10:30 "But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

This scripture clearly shows that eternal life is only potential. No one has eternal life at this time. Jesus died to pay the price for redeeming the soul from the grip of sin. If we are redeemed, and continue to walk in the light (1 John 1:7), eternal life will be the inevitable appointment.

The only people that I know who are rejecting God's full salvation in Christ Jesus are those who in spite of overwhelming evidence will not hear the gospel; will not repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). They will face the righteous judge with a lot of blanks empty on heaven's registry.

JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

quote: c.moore

When does the spiritual baptism comes into place ,when you first go into the water or when you come out of the water????


Quote kevin
When you come up out of the water, you are a new creature walking in the spririt, not in the flesh. What is so hard to understand about that?

Quote c.moore
I see this different kevin, that you have this also backwards, and the Spiritual baptism comes first, and th
Let`s take A look at this with a little help from A spiritual baptism teacher,who gave me better words to explain it to you and other water baptismo ritual people.
First of all water baptism is just A picture of the real thing which is taken today as spiritual.
The spiritual baptism is A change taken place going from our natural dead life into Christ new nature,and new ways. Our old nature dies,and we become new in Christ.
1.So there is first A death and that`s dying from your old nature .
2.Second you go into Jesus and be buried in Him, as he come `s in us.
3. third when Jesus lives in us we rise up alive in Jesus, and we are resurrected in the life of Jesus, loving and letting Jesus walk us through His will and having a relationship with Him, and as we start our journey ,we begin by following Jesus,after the Spiritual baptism to get water baptized to show yourself , and others the thing that happen in the spirit baptism.
Now the reason the bible says the spiritual baptism comes before is because
1. John the Baptist said in Mt.3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." In a sense, John was saying that Jesus would baptize everyone – either in the realm of the blessing of the Holy Spirit or the realm of the judgment ("fire").
In Lk.3:16, John also said, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Jesus is the baptizer, the Spirit is the means.

. In Jn.1:33, the Baptist pointed to Jesus’ baptism saying, "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." Jesus is identified as the one who would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

, John’s Disciples Receive Spiritual Baptism (Acts 19).
1. Paul "came to Ephesus" and there he found 12 "disciples." There is much debate on whether they were saved or lost.
2. Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They were "disciples" and Paul infers that they had "believed." I understand this to mean they were saved.
3. To answer his question they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." They had "believed" with limited knowledge. They were ignorant of the Spirit.
4. Paul asked a second question, "Into what were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism." We know John prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come. They obviously did not know this. It is logical that men may have been followers of Apollos who "knew only the baptism of John" (cf. 18:24-28).
5. Paul then launched into a sermon on John as the forerunner of Christ, that John’s message was "that they should believe on Him who would come after Him, that is on Christ Jesus."
6. No doubt Paul informed that John had said, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn.3:30) and "He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry" (Mt.3:11). He went on to give them the full gospel.
7. These "disciples" must have been like OT saints. They wholeheartedly believed what they knew, they just didn’t know enough. Note that "when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." They believed on Jesus.
8. Just as with the Samaritans, Paul "laid hands on them" and then "the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."
9. They should have received the Holy Spirit when they believed. That’s why Paul asked them about the object of their belief. They had to know about Jesus before they could receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They lived in a transitional period.
10. The practical lesson here is we can not lead others to a level of understanding or experience that we have not attained.
2. Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They were "disciples" and Paul infers that they had "believed." I understand this to mean they were saved.
3. To answer his question they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." They had "believed" with limited knowledge. They were ignorant of the Spirit.
4. Paul asked a second question, "Into what were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism." We know John prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come. They obviously did not know this. It is logical that men may have been followers of Apollos who "knew only the baptism of John" (cf. 18:24-28).
5. Paul then launched into a sermon on John as the forerunner of Christ, that John’s message was "that they should believe on Him who would come after Him, that is on Christ Jesus."
6. No doubt Paul informed that John had said, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn.3:30) and "He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry" (Mt.3:11). He went on to give them the full gospel.
7. These "disciples" must have been like OT saints. They wholeheartedly believed what they knew, they just didn’t know enough. Note that "when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." They believed on Jesus.
8. Just as with the Samaritans, Paul "laid hands on them" and then "the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."
9. They should have received the Holy Spirit when they believed. That’s why Paul asked them about the object of their belief. They had to know about Jesus before they could receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They lived in a transitional period.

I will continue , but I must end this post before my computer get jammed again and I lose what I wrote.

peace

 

[c.moore]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is UNIQUE – it happens at the moment of salvation, it is UNIVERSAL – it applies to all genuine believers, and it is UNIFYING – it calls for peace among those who name the name of Christ.
3. If the baptism of the Spirit is for every believer and if it is an accomplished fact, what does this mean for us?
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit means a New Life.
The Holy Spirit gives us Spiritual Life (John 3:1-8).


Jesus seems to say, "Let Me make this simple." Look at His words in v. 5. "Unless one is born of water [physical birth] and the Spirit [spiritual birth], he cannot enter the kingdom of God." You must be born twice.
8. Jesus further amplifies this thought, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh." The flesh is corrupt and if we are only born of flesh we will be corrupt too. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." But when we have spiritual birth we have something different… not only a new life, but a new type of life.
9. Being born again, born of the Spirit gives us a new life! The Bible speaks of this in several passages:
a. 2 Cor.3:6 says, "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
b. Jesus said in John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
c. Rom.8:10-11 says, "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
d. 1 Cor.15:45 says, "And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
e. There is no possibility of new life apart from the Spirit. Rom.8:9 says, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
B. The Holy Spirit maintains our Spiritual Life (John 7:37-39).

4. Jesus said the woman at the well in John 4:14, "Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
5. The Spirit not only gives you spiritual life, but He is like a well of spiritual water within you always pumping out living water, always there to refresh you.
6. Notice also in v. 39 that at that time, "the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified." It was not until Jesus had died, been buried and rose again, until He ascended to the Father that the Spirit would come and baptize men and women into Christ. You and I have that relationship today!


let God spritual baptize you before water baptism.

 

[c.moore]

A. Spiritual Baptism Identifies us with Jesus (Rom.6:1-5).
1. In 5:20, Paul made a profound statement, "But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." One of my professors said that is the key phrase of the whole Bible.
2. V. 1 asks a logical question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If our sin showcases God’s grace, then shouldn’t we continue to sin? Paul says, "Certainly not." Just because cheating on your faithful spouse makes them seem even more faithful, this is no reason to commit adultery!
3. Note v. 3. "as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death." This is not water baptism or we must conclude that we need water baptism for salvation. We were immersed or "united together" (v. 5) in Christ’s death.
4. This is a very difficult passage. Basically it means that our salvation means that our old self, the old man, our sin nature died with Christ on the cross. We were "baptized" or "united together in the likeness of His death." When you were saved, your old self died with Jesus.
5. By virtue of spiritual baptism, we were "buried with Him through baptism into death" and "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" just as Jesus was raised. Therefore we should "walk in newness of life."
6. Look closely at v. 5. We were "united together [immersed - baptized] in the likeness of His death" and therefore we were also baptized or immersed "in the likeness of His resurrection." We are completely identified with Jesus!
7. V. 6 says "Our old man [old self] was crucified with Him." V. 8 says, "Now if we died with Christ… we shall also live with Him."
8. Spiritual baptism means that we vicariously experienced the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We are so identified with Him that we no longer live, but He lives through us. Gal 2:20 says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
B. Spiritual Baptism identifies us with Jesus PERMANENTLY.
1. Before we were saved we were identified with Adam. Through Adam we inherited a sin nature, were placed under a curse, lived in darkness and had the devil as our daddy.
2. Through Jesus we switched families. We lose our identity with Adam and become "married into" the family of God.
3. Spiritual baptism means something more than just being a Christian. It means you have been placed in a whole new environment. Col.1:13 says "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."


peace

 

[c.moore]

Being spiritually baptized means: God has moved you from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. He has removed your death sentence and given you eternal life. He has given you hope, meaning, and purpose. He has placed within you rivers of living water to refresh your soul. He has forever linked you with Jesus and with all who call on His name.


Let God bless you

 

[agape]

Re: Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Re: Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Mark 10:30 "But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

This scripture clearly shows that eternal life is only potential.

This verse does NOT clearly show that eternal life is only a potential at all. Jesus Christ is stating that they will not only receive a hundred fold in their present lifetime, but ALSO in the world or age to come which is eternal life. They will have the highest happiness and joy for all eternity.

No one has eternal life at this time.

According to your private interpretation we don't, BUT NOT according to the accuracy of God's Word. What you falsely claim is NOT what God's Word claims.

I John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

I John 2:25 - And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

We already have the promise of eternal life because we have eternal life abiding in us. God is not a man that He should lie and we are guaranteed eternal life.

I John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I John 5:11 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Jesus died to pay the price for redeeming the soul from the grip of sin. If we are redeemed, and continue to walk in the light (1 John 1:7), eternal life will be the inevitable appointment.

Another false interpretation on your part. God's Word does NOT SAY If we are redeemed AND CONTINUE to walk in the light eternal life is inevitable. Give me chapter and verse on that one. You can't because you just made it up. WHEN WE "ARE" REDEEMED BECAUSE WE BELIEVED IN CHRIST, ETERNAL LIFE IS INEVITABLE...NO WORKS...ALL GRACE.

You are mishandling God's Word. It's like a picture puzzle. Instead of you patiently and honestly finding the correct pieces to fit into the puzzle in order to get a clear, whole and accurate picture, you cut around the edges of different pieces and force it to fit into the puzzle. As a result of twisting and turning the pieces around to fit, you come out with nothing but a distorted picture. This is what you do with God's Word.

The only people that I know who are rejecting God's full salvation in Christ Jesus are those who in spite of overwhelming evidence will not hear the gospel; will not repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). They will face the righteous judge with a lot of blanks empty on heaven's registry.

In order to receive God's full salvation, which is to be save, born again of God's Spirit and have eternal life is to believe and accept the GOSPEL OF THE GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION (Romans 10:9). We are at that time baptized in holy spirit and therefore have GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE SPIRIT/SEED ABIDING IN US!

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Originally posted by agape

Agape says:

(Mark 10:30)...This verse does NOT clearly show that eternal life is only a potential at all. Jesus Christ is stating that they will not only receive a hundred fold in their present lifetime, but ALSO in the world or age to come which is eternal life. They will have the highest happiness and

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If eternal life is not potential then death due to sin is not realistic. I believe it is for real ( Isaiah 59:1-2). Paul tells the Romans that sin has always been the cause of spiritual death, and will always be the case, even so grace will be present through righteousness as one goes forward to obtain eternal life. Eternal life is therefore potential.

According to your private interpretation we don't, BUT NOT according to the accuracy of God's Word. What you falsely claim is NOT what God's Word claims.
I John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

I John 2:25 - And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. We already have the promise of eternal life because we have eternal life abiding in us. God is not a man that He should lie and we are guaranteed eternal life.

I John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

All these that John spoke to have died physically, therefore, they did not have eternal life. Only Deity is eternal and this is what John refers to in 1 John 5:11. If we continue in Christ, when we are raised we will not come into condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal. (John 5:24).

Another false interpretation on your part. God's Word does NOT SAY If we are redeemed AND CONTINUE to walk in the light eternal life is inevitable. Give me chapter and verse on that one. You can't because you just made it up. WHEN WE "ARE" REDEEMED BECAUSE WE BELIEVED IN CHRIST, ETERNAL LIFE IS INEVITABLE...NO WORKS...ALL GRACE.

You are mishandling God's Word. It's like a picture puzzle. Instead of you patiently and honestly finding the correct pieces to fit into the puzzle in order to get a clear, whole and accurate picture, you cut around the edges of different pieces and force it to fit into the puzzle. As a result of twisting and turning the pieces around to fit, you come out with nothing but a distorted picture. This is what you do with God's Word.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In order to receive God's full salvation, which is to be save, born again of God's Spirit and have eternal life is to believe and accept the GOSPEL OF THE GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION (Romans 10:9). We are at that time baptized in holy spirit and therefore have GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE SPIRIT/SEED ABIDING IN US!

You continue to try to use the Holy Spirit as the cleansing agent, but He is not. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ which takes place in the obedient act of being baptized for the remission of sins

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit).

Not only does Christ declare that eternal life is to be received in the world to come, his apostles clearly taught it. Hear what Paul further told the Roman church..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

Also from nature each day you learn the lesson that you first sow, then comes the time of reaping. The most ignorant know this, Listen: "He that soweth to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Sprit reap life everlasting" Gal. 6:8. That the sinner is "sowing to the flesh" is admitted by all. When they become Christians, they begin to "sow to the Spirit," and the reaping time will come – they will receive eternal life in the world to come. If man receives eternal life the moment he believes, someone should tell when he sowed to the Spirit, that he might reap the everlasting life. There must be a "sowing to the Spirit" before there can be eternal life, therefore, eternal life is only potential. my drift?

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Some more for C.moore

Some more for C.moore

Originally posted by c.moore
Being spiritually baptized means: God has moved you from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. He has removed your death sentence and given you eternal life. He has given you hope, meaning, and purpose. He has placed within you rivers of living water to refresh your soul. He has forever linked you with Jesus and with all who call on His name.


Let God bless you

Good Isn't Good Enough

He "was a devout man, one who feared God with all his household, who gave
alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always" (Acts 10:2). His
name was Cornelius, and he was a good man. Yet, he was told that in the
sight of God there were some things he lacked. He was directed to Simon
Peter who would tell him what he must do (Acts 10:6). When Peter came to
visit him, Cornelius was waiting for him with his relatives and close
friends (Acts 10:24). Peter taught Cornelius and his family and friends
about Jesus Christ - His authority, His power, His crucifixion, His
resurrection, His future role as Judge of the living and the dead (Acts
10:34-42). Peter also proclaimed the gift that Jesus offered: "To Him
all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him
will receive forgiveness of sins ... And he commanded them to be baptized
in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:43, 48).

Why was a good man - a God-fearing man - told to believe in Jesus and be
baptized (immersed in water) in the name of the Lord?

Cornelius was a good man, but he was still a sinner; he needed forgiveness
for his sins. So do you. So do I. "As it is written: 'There is none
righteous, no not one; there is none who understands; there is none who
seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together
become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one'" (Romans
3:10-12).

Cornelius, as well as many others, could declare: "I am basically a good
person. I pay taxes. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't do anything to
hurt other people. In fact, I try to help others. Why do I need
forgiveness?"

Cornelius learned that just being a good, moral person isn't enough. He
needed Jesus Christ and the forgiveness that is found in Him.

Sin is not only breaking the law of God (1 John 3:4); it is also failing
to be what God intended for us to be. There are sins of commission - sins
we commit - and there are sins of omission - things we should do, but
don't. The truth is that no one can ever be good enough to earn salvation.
Only through Jesus Christ can one be saved (Acts 4:12).

God wants us to be good (see Acts 10:35), but He knows - just as you and I
know - that we can never be perfect. Each day we fall short in some way,
either in thought, attitude, word, or deed. In short, we are sinners, and
we need a Savior. God, in His great love and mercy, gave us His Son to
provide for us what we need the most: forgiveness. Through faith (Acts
10:43), repentance (Acts 17:30), confession (Romans 10:9-10) and baptism
(Acts 10:48; 2:38), and faithfulness to Christ (1 John 1:7), we receive
forgiveness in Christ.

God loves good people, but being good isn't good enough. ALL people
EVERYWHERE - the good and the bad - need the salvation from sin which God
has provided.

We must not TRUST in our good works, but rather CONTINUE in them, while
trusting and obeying Jesus Who ALONE has finished the work.

JustAChristian

 

[Evangelion]

AMEN!!!! :up:

 

[agape]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If eternal life is not potential then death due to sin is not realistic.I believe it is for real ( Isaiah 59:1-2). Paul tells the Romans that sin has always been the cause of spiritual death, and will always be the case, even so grace will be present through righteousness as one goes forward to obtain eternal life.

Still wrongly dividing God's Word to MAKE IT FALSELY FIT YOUR THEORY. We have ALREADY OBTAINED ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST. John 5:13; "...We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." When we are saved and born again of God's incorruptible seed, there is no ifs, ands or buts...no guess work...works...WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN US. We DO NOT need to do anything to "obtain" eternal life...JESUS CHRIST DID IT FOR US. Praise God! You can NEVER obtain eternal life by works. I John 2:25 - "And this is THE PROMISE that HE HATH PROMISED US [EVEN] ETERNAL LIFE..

We ALREADY HAVE the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE because WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ALREADY ABIDING IN US.

I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE...CHRIST IS IN ME, THE HOPE OF GLORY. I see my future now in the present because I know the promise of God made to me, which is ETERNAL LIFE. I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW, I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

You are so off the Word of God, JAC...you teach the total opposite of the TRUTH...you teach a LIE.

Romans 5:16-21:
And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus Christ did what was required and necessary to make righteousness (justification) available for mankind, and thus God's grace may reign by means of righteousness resulting in eternal life by means of Jesus Christ our Lord and SAVIOR. Eternal LIFE - not death! This eternal life is holy spirit-life/seed in us which is available to men and women by means of Jesus Christ our Lord, (our Master).

Let's see some twisting of God's Word, which you so easily do.

All these that John spoke to have died physically, therefore, they did not have eternal life.

With that ridiculous statement shows a lack of knowledge, on your part, concerning the Scriptures. We have eternal life abiding in us. We are not, and obviously so, at this present time IMMORTAL. When Christ returns for his Church at the appointed time God has set forth, the dead in Christ will rise up first and PUT ON INCORRUPTION. Those who are still alive at Christ's coming for his Church will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. There is no debating concerning eternal life. We as born-again believes immediately put on immortality at his coming when we shall meet him IN THE AIR.

Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I Thessalonians 4:14-17:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We are ALREADY SPIRITUALLY SEATED with Christ in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:4-9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, "HATH" QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED) (6) AND "HATH" [PAST TENSE] RAISED [US] UP TOGETHER, AND MADE [US] TO SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS: (7) That in the AGES TO COME he might SHEW THE "EXCEEDING RICHES" OF HIS GRACE IN [HIS] KINDNESS TOWARD US "THROUGH" CHRIST JESUS. (8) FOR BY "GRACE" ARE YE "SAVED THROUGH FAITH;" AND THAT "NOT OF YOURSELVES" [it is] THE "GIFT" OF GOD. (9) NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Can God make it any more PLAIN to the born-again believer?? Open your eyes, JAC...there is so much you are missing out on!

Only Deity is eternal and this is what John refers to in 1 John 5:11.

I John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that GOD "HATH GIVEN" TO US ETERNAL LIFE, and THIS LIFE IS "IN" HIS SON. (12) HE THAT HATH THE SON HATH LIFE; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY YE MAY BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.

Where's the so-called "only deity" is eternal?? I really don't know what you're talking about. I guess it's because you still keep making things up as you go.

If we continue in Christ, when we are raised we will not come into condemnation but will pass from death into life eternal. (John 5:24).

Again you have TWISTED THE SCRIPTURES AROUND TO SAY AND MEAN SOMETHING IT DOES NOT. You took the piece of puzzle called "works" and you try to fit it into the GRACE of God and you have distorted the Word of Truth.

Here is what John 5:24 is really saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, and BELIEVETH ON HIM that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; "BUT" is passed from death unto life.

Where does it say "IF" we continue in Christ?? AND where does it say "when we are raised from the dead"??? See how he makes up his own verses...like the puzzle game I had mentioned? He obviously twisted it around to make it work in his favor. It says he that hears and believes on Him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE., SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. Sounds like the verse is teaching that WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE for we HAVE ALREADY, SPIRITUALLY, PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (ETERNAL). You subltly put in "IF" we continue in Christ. You purposely turned God's truth into a lie.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Here we go again, trying to fit in works for salvation and eternal life. So now we need to sow eternal life in order to reap eternal life? How ridiculous. How does one "sow and reap" eternal life? What was Jesus Christ all about? Have we forgotten about him. What about John 3:16? All we are required to do to receive eternal life is TO BELEIVE IN CHRIST. We already know from God's Word including all the scriptures I have quoted to you thus far, prove that the only means whereby we can have eternal life is THROUGH CHRIST. So how can anyone "sow eternal life"?? You need to think about these things, JAC.

All of us who are born again, have holy spirit-life within us, which is the spirit of Christ, which is eternal life. We are spiritually alive now, and in the future we will receive our spiritual bodies like the Lord Jesus Christ has already received from God. Any works we do into the spirit will remain, they will not be burned-up. If we sow "to the Spirit" in us, in manifestations, we will reap "life" everlasting. In other words, we will reap that which is incorruptible, will not burned.

You continue to try to use the Holy Spirit as the cleansing agent, but He is not. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ which takes place in the obedient act of being baptized for the remission of sins

It takes place by being baptized in holy spirit...not in the old symbolic outward cleansing of water baptism, which showed a baptism would be necessary to "receive" remission of sin--"For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence." The blood of Jesus cleansed us from our sins; however, to receive the cleansing inwardly, one must be born of Spirit, born from above. Why would Jesus tells Nicodemus this if it were not necessary?? The Scriptures make it plain that in order for one to enter into the Kingdom of God he must be born of the Spirit, which is an INWARD cleansing of sin which we received through the blood of Christ. When we are born from above, we receive a NEW NATURE, which is God's Spirit and which is eternal life spirit.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

Again, you are stating just the opposite of what this verse is saying. It is most definitely to be "baptized in the holy spirit." He is talking to the elect. Their election and salvation in accordance to the foreknowledge of the Father "Through the sanctification of the Spirit" which one can only receive by baptism in holy spirit. We are sanctified, MADE holy, set apart from the world to love and service God UNTO obedience (belief of the truth), sealed by the blood of Christ. (See Exodus 24:3-8)

II Thessalonians 2:13:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit)

?? The gift of the Holy Ghost IS to be baptized in the holy spirit!! He said AND BE BAPTIZED AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE "HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT."

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Not baptized of the Holy Spirit).

It is referring to a spiritual INNER washing away of sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Definitely referring to BAPTIZED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

By Paul's believing of God's Word as he called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ he received God's gift of holy spirit by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. Note: there was no mention of physical water because physical water bathing, washing or immersion was not and still is not needed nor is it required because it does not wash away any sins since the moment that baptism with holy spirit was established on the day of Pentecost!

Not only does Christ declare that eternal life is to be received in the world to come

Only according to your private interpretation.

his apostles clearly taught it. Hear what Paul further told the Roman church..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

Again, according to your own private interpretation.

Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!

For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

The difference is very clear:

The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:

Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God

Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)

Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)

JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!

You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.

 

[JustAChristian]

Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Originally posted by agape
Again, according to your own private interpretation.

Romans 6:22,23:
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Paul is addressing the born-again saints and tells that that now having been made free, set at liberty, away from sin - and instead, you have been become servants or made to be people who now serve God...At the actually present time you have your fruit/produce resulting in holiness, the ending issue or fulfillment, (you who are now freed from sin and are enslaved to God) is eternal life - everlasting, agelong spirit-life!

For the wagesof sin [is] death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

The difference is very clear:

The wages (merited) proceeding from sin:

Gracious gift (unmerited) Proceeding from God

Death (spiritual death now because of the lack of holy spirit-life, plus death both physically and spiritually in the future)

Eternal life (spiritual life now because of having holy spirit-life, plus eternal life with a spiritual body in the future)

JAC, it really amazes me how every verse of scripture you have put out are the very verses that work against you and disproves your case each and every time!

You really need to do a long and hard study of the scriptures. Your mishandling of scripture, which you do consistently and continuously reflexs from you a low regard for the truth of God's Word and a disrespect to God Himself. I truly implore you to get spiritual guidance and to get help when working the Word of Truth.

Evangelion said "Amen" . I thought we were dismissed.

JustAChristian

 

[agape]

Re: Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Re: Didn't Somebody Do The Benediction?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Evangelion said "Amen" . I thought we were dismissed.

JustAChristian

What a "COP OUT" JAC...couldn't handle the truth anymore...eh?

Evangelion might be your "god," but he certainly is not mine.

I'll take AMEN..."SO BE IT" from THE ONE AND ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Btw, Evangelion...all your thumbs up make you look kind of foolish since JAC has been PROVEN WRONG each and every time.

I think you both deserve a :down:

 

[Evangelion]

Suit yourself, Agaoe. I've got at least three basic arguments in this thread which have yet to be challenged - and that's not even counting my proof texts.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Suit yourself, Agaoe. I've got at least three basic arguments in this thread which have yet to be challenged - and that's not even counting my proof texts.

Proof text? Where? In your dreams only.

You have not proven a darn thing. Sorry, but The Truth always prevails and you have not shown one bit of truth thus far...only your private interpretation along with your servant, JAC!

PS: I would like to know what "works" you are doing in order to "really" be saved and receive eternal life in the future? This applies to you too, JAC?

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

Don't you have any depth, heart or insight to God's Word at all? Were you raised under strict "religious" teachings?

I have enough depth to know that God will not save the disobedient. God, Who does NOT change, has always expected man's obedience. There are plenty of examples in the Bible that show man's destruction when they don't obey God.

No one, and I mean absolutely no one was born again until the day of Pentecost.

Right! It happened in Acts 2:38 when they were baptized with water in the name of the Lord for the remission of their sins.

I Peter 1:23: gives a characteristic of Christ's seed which a person receives when he is born again.

Even though we have His seed in us after being reborn, we can still sin and separate ourselves from God's grace. We may still be His children, but disobedient children won't inherit the kingdom of God. Do you have a scripture that says that the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God?

I John 3:9:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John is not saying that one who who has been born again, cannot physically sin, as if it's impossible to do. Some good commentary on this:

""And so the word in our verse does not mean that the child of God has come to the place where he is physically unable to do any wrong, but that he is morally restrained from it, just as a good man who is asked to join another in some came would reply, ""O, no, I couldn't do anything like that." (E.M. Zerr, Bible Commentary, volume 6, p. 284 )"

To sum up, this passage is basically saying that one cannot live a life of sin and also abide in Christ, which is of course essential for salvation. The apostle John certainly shows that Christians CAN and DO sin in 1John 1:8-10.

1John 1:8-10
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Whoever is born of God must have God's seed in him. When the natural man is born again, the part of his being which he does not commit sin in is in the seed of God which is incorruptible. In his body and soul part, the flesh, he still commits sin.

Again, just because we have God's seed doesn't mean that we can't turn from Him and forsake Him. Those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I do see that you acknowledged that we do sin in that last part of that quote, but somehow, you don't think it has an effect upon our salvation. There's no scripture to support this.

Indeed, the apostle John goes on in chapter 2:4 that he who does not keep Jesus's commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them. He is saying this to people who have been born again with God's seed. And as I've said before, liars will not be in heaven.

The apstle continues in 2:17 and says that it is he who does the will of God that abides forever. By the way, how can you DO the will of God with faith ALONE ? Anyway, my point is that one who sins is not doing the will of God, and if you're not doing the will of God, you can forget about heaven.

I John 3:9 states that a born-again person cannot sin because he is born of God.

Already addressed. See above. With statements like this, it sounds like you are contradicting yourself when you acknowledged that we still sin. Do you or do you not believe that Christians can sin?

Eternal life becomes ours as body-and-soul men and women when we are born again of God's spirit.

I John 3:5:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

A classic baptism proof text! It is through baptism that we are born of the spirit.

One cannot enter into the Kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit, which is eternal-life spirit.

Agreed.

It cannot be taken away or destroyed. It's permanent.

Again, just because God's seed abides in us forever doesn't mean that He will accept the disobedient. The book of Galatians holds proof of this.

Galatians 1:6
6) I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

The significance of this verse is essential. Here, Paul is clearly rebuking the Galatian brethren for turning away from Him (being God), who called them into the grace of Christ, to a different gospel. One might try to argue that just because God called them into grace doesn't mean they accepted. But simple logic annihilates this assertion. How could one turn away from God if they weren't already with Him at one point? It's impossible. One cannot turn away from God without already having a relationship with Him first. So, by scripture and logic, these Galatian brethren were in the process of turning from God, who called them into the saving grace of Christ, which they did accept.

That being said, according to the theory of O.S.A.S., there is no way for these people, who had been called into the saving grace of Christ, to lose their salvation. Well, as I will now point out, the Galatian brethren were in danger of that very thing: falling from the grace that saved them. Looking at Chapter 5, verses 2 and 4, we read:

Galations 5:2,4
2) Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
4) You have become estranged from Christ you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

How much plainer could it be? These men, who were attempting to teach that circumcision was necessary for one to become a member of Christ's church, were clearly in danger of falling from their saving grace if they practiced this foreign gospel. In verse 2, it says that if they practice this, which clearly indicates that it was an option for them... that they could sin, Christ will profit them nothing. If Christ doesn't profit you anything, how can you make it to Heaven? You can't. If you have fallen from grace, you're not in God's grace... and if you're not in God's grace, you won't be saved.

If you want to use OSAS...which is not found in the scriptures, fine, go ahead.

What is it with you? Does not OSAS perfectly describe your position? Do you not believe that Once you're Saved you're Always Saved? If you do, then what's your problem? So what if it's not in the Bible. OSAS is simply an easy way to reference this belief.

The good works that we do is not to get saved, but it is because we are saved.

I seem to recall you saying that you weren't going to ride this merry go round or something like that. Make up your mind. If you want to continue it, answer my points.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

When you find a borrowed arguement that actually answers my points and questions, let me know.

 

[Evangelion]

Agape - so, no answers from you yet? Not even the "typology" and "obedience parables" questions? Very well.

I would like to know what "works" you are doing in order to "really" be saved and receive eternal life in the future?

Works of obedience. You know - those things which Christ talks about in the parables you don't want to address. But, since the gift of eternal life is worth more than we could ever give to God, these works of obedience do not "earn" us eternal life. (Which you'd know if you'd read the parable of the workers in the vineyard - the parable that nobody wants to talk about, apparently...)

So eternal life is a gift. Why is it a gift? Because we could not possibly earn it. So why should we be obedient? Because (a) God will not reward the disobedient, (b) we have promised to serve Him by entering a covenant relationshio with Him (through His Son), and (c) He is our Father, and we are called to be like Him in every way that we can.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Now I'm going to bed.

Goodnight.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
I seem to recall you saying that you weren't going to ride this merry go round or something like that. Make up your mind. If you want to continue it, answer my points.

It's the same old broken record of private interpretation I get from you and from JAC.

I already made up my mind silly. Keep your works...I 'll stick with God's Grace ALONE.

TA TA

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

When you find a borrowed arguement that actually answers my points and questions, let me know.

Didn`t I answer your question about the spiritual baptism , and if you read my post to you I even put the three spiritual baptism ,that get us in the kingdom of God, before doing any works.

peace