The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Read the above post Kevin, the answer is in it.

Sorry, but nowhere in your borrowed arguement did it answer the question of how spirit baptism represents the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. Water baptism in the name of the Lord fits the bill for all three of those, and that's what was practiced.

Try again.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

I believe Jesus Himself allows us to put away our old man of sin.

Amen to that. Jesus allows us to put away our old man of sin by means of baptism into His death. (Romans 6:1-11)

Kevin, did you know Evangelion rejects Jesus being very God.

I'm WELL aware of Evangelion's beliefs regarding the Trinity. If you are trying to turn me against him, it won't work.

Does this bother you?

At this point in time, I'm not sure which I believe regarding the Trinitarian vs. Unitarian issue. I'm kinda stuck in the middle, seeing evidence on both sides. I take what Evangelion says very seriously, but at the same time, I also take Trinitarian arguements very seriously. Therefore, the whole situation "bothers" me. I hope I can someday reach a conclusion.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Sorry, but nowhere in your borrowed arguement did it answer the question of how spirit baptism represents the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. Water baptism in the name of the Lord fits the bill for all three of those, and that's what was practiced.

Try again.

Ít talked about the spiritual baptism is over the water baptism.

It also says that the spiritual baptism is the thinks that makes us buried in Christ,and we are alive in Christ, and it said the scripture you think that are water baptism , you turn them to say that they are your water baptism, but they are all spiritual baptism verse.
I learned what most people don´T understand , they can`t accept.
Kevin, some thing from the bible don`t make sence to the natural mind, try look and study the bible in the spirit way, and then look at what the Lord is saying,and hear with your spiritual ears.

peace

 

[c.moore]

At this point in time, I'm not sure which I believe regarding the Trinitarian vs. Unitarian issue. I'm kinda stuck in the middle, seeing evidence on both sides. I take what Evangelion says very seriously, but at the same time, I also take Trinitarian arguements very seriously. Therefore, the whole situation "bothers" me. I hope I can someday reach a conclusion.


quote c.moore
See, that why the bible says stay away from evil decieve people , and 1Tim 1:4 because you might be caught in thier decieve mind.
peace

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

It also says that the spiritual baptism is the thinks that makes us buried in Christ

That may be his opinion, but we can say that water baptism is fully fitting for the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. Your borrowed arguement made no attemp to show that spirit baptism can do the same, because it can't.

and it said the scripture you think that are water baptism , you turn them to say that they are your water baptism, but they are all spiritual baptism verse.

Oh really? Here's what your borrowd arguement says:

"Moreover, none of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (2:38-41; 8:26-39; 9:17, 18; 22:12-16; 10:44-48; 16:32-34) favours the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, or by immersion, while in some of them such a mode was highly improbable."

So, it mentions Acts 8:26-39 as not use dipping or immersion in water. Would you care to explain to me Acts 8:38-39? It says he baptized the eunuch in WATER in verse 38. They went into the water. In verse 39, they came out of the WATER. The fact that they went down into the water and came out of the water supports that he was immersed or dipped into the water, which also fits the definition of the greek word "baptizo" perfectly. Are you still going to tell me that this is not speaking of water baptism?

Your borrowed arguement also mentions Acts 10:44-48. The people there were baptized in WATER there too (verse 47-48). Are you still going to tell me that this is not speaking of water baptism?

The author of your borrowed doesn't seem to have read his Bible too closely.

Will you ever address the typology question of how spirit baptism can represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer?

 

[Evangelion]

So Agape - under your system, I can continue to live a life of sin, and I'll still be saved? There's no need to practice good works?

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,

quote:
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If you're insisting that this faith only effects the physical well-being of a person, you are wrong.
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There you go again...TWISTING MY WORDS.
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Shall I define the word "if" for you, or did you miss that? I was trying to understand where you are coming from, and therefore I said "IF you are insisting...", which means, if you are POSSIBLY saying this. I put the word IF in there so I wouldn't be accused of putting words in you mouth. READ!

I had already made it clear to you what I WAS SAYING and now you are saying you put the "if" there so you would not be told you are twisting my words around? Give me a break! It's only a cover. The rest of what you say is just a repeat of you not understanding the Scriptures. You keep confusing saved referring to getting saved and born again of God's Spirit, with saved in James thinking it means the same things. Save in James is not talking about one losing their salvation and going to hell because they have faith without works! How ridiculous.

I explained the difference of save in Ephesians in comparison to save in James and it went over your head and continues to go over your head because you just don't want to see it. It's as plain as day. You through in hell, fire and brimstone and write your own bible. There is no mention of a fiery judgment.

Your perception of James 2 and other verses is wrong and I have proven it wrong with ample scripture. You have not replied to any of the verses I presented with adequate scripture to disprove them. You just skip around and pull out verses that have nothing at all to do with James 2 and are TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT...such as you do with Matthew 25. What a mishandling of scripture! You can't take a parable Jesus was giving to those people at that particular time and drag it all the way out of the OT and shove it into James which has absolutely nothing to with Matthrew 25. You don't even have Matthew 25 correct. You wrongly divide those verses, which I have also shown you, as well as the ones in James.

The word "save" in James 2 certainly has a bearing on salvation, it speaks of the same type of works that condemned the people to hell in Matt 25:41-46.

Again...BALONEY...and again just your own erroneous private interpretation, Kevin.

First of all, it's your opinion that I'm twisting the word of God around. Second, it's YOU that is twisting it. You are trying to convince people that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by faith "ALONE". The word "ALONE" does not appear anywhere in that verse. It is you who tampers with the word of God.

LOL...The word of alone does not need to be there. Is it saying there is more than faith required? NO. So it is faith alone without works...NOT OF WORKS. That's not private interpretation in the least, such as you do, because saying faith "alone" is accurately clarifying what is stated in the verse, which is we are saved by grace through faith (nothing more and nothing less...ALONE) NOT OF WORKS]/b]

I'm sorry you had to spend so much time typing that up

Oh don't be sorry, I'm sure someone who read it and uses the brain and heart God gave them received a lot of truth from it.

but why are you referring to John's baptism? I've been saying that being baptized in the name of the Lord (Jesus's baptism) is what saves.

Oh stop playing dumb, You have not. My response was to that typology thing of stages you threw out which Evangelion started.

I'm not going on a merry-go-round ride with you over this. You just talk in circles repeating the same private interpretations over and over again. I get the impression that you don't even know what you are talking about. Again, please pray to God to open the eyes of your understanding and with an open heart and mind and a sincere desire to really want to know the truth, diligently and earnestly do II Timothy 2:15.

 

[Evangelion]

Kevin - don't listen to Agape! He/she is Satan's Heretic!!!! Freak told me this, so it must be true!!!

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Kevin - don't listen to Agape! He/she is Satan's Heretic!!!! Freak told me this, so it must be true!!!

Freak told you a lot of things about you. Guess they must all be true too!

 

[Evangelion]

Yep, they are!

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
So Agape - under your system, I can continue to live a life of sin, and I'll still be saved? There's no need to practice good works?

Well you got it partially right. First it's not under my system, but according to God's Word, if you continue to live a life of sin, after you are saved and born again that you are still saved. It was not by works in the first place that got you saved. It was Jesus Christ who saved you because you could not and still cannot do it yourself. However there is a need to do good works, NOT to get saved, but to produce fruit in your life, and to bless others with the love of God that has been shed abroad in your heart. When we walk in the love of God toward others and when we hold forth the Word of Truth winning others to Christ, we not only produce fruit and receive blessings here and now, but we will receive future rewards as well.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Yep, they are!

Well I guess you just spoke for yourself. As in my case, well...none of it is true.

 

[Evangelion]

Did he say that I'm demon-possessed? I want to get credit for having a demon.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Did he say that I'm demon-possessed? I want to get credit for having a demon.

How quickly one forgets. Freak claims all who do not believe the trinity are demon-possessed. So I guess he's referring to you too. So don't worry...you get plenty of credit for having a demon

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

I had already made it clear to you what I WAS SAYING and now you are saying you put the "if" there so you would not be told you are twisting my words around? Give me a break! It's only a cover.

Whatever. I already told you why I said what I did. If you don't believe me... fine.

Save in James is not talking about one losing their salvation and going to hell because they have faith without works! How ridiculous.

I showed you how Jame 2 connects with Matt 25 and how those people lost their salvation because of lack of good works, the same kind mentioned in James 2. And all you can do is come back with your same empty rhetoric without any scriptual backing. Pathetic.

I explained the difference of save in Ephesians in comparison to save in James and it went over your head and continues to go over your head because you just don't want to see it.

It didn't go over my head. There is one faith that matters to salvation. The same faith that brings one to Jesus is the same faith that causes them to do good works... THE SAME FAITH... THE SAME EFFECT ON SALVATION.

It's as plain as day.

You're so right. Too bad you can't see... even in the plain of day.

You through in hell, fire and brimstone and write your own bible.

I'm not writing anything. You in fact add to the word of God by claiming, no INSISTING that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through faith "ALONE". "ALONE" is not anywhere in that verse... hypocrite.

There is no mention of a fiery judgment.

Only because of your inability to see the connection between Matt. 25 and James 2.

Your perception of James 2 and other verses is wrong and I have proven it wrong with ample scripture.

Such as?

You have not replied to any of the verses I presented with adequate scripture to disprove them.

Such as?

You can't take a parable Jesus was giving to those people at that particular time and drag it all the way out of the OT

Are you suggesting that Matt. 25:41-46 isn't relevent for modern day Christians?

You wrongly divide those verses, which I have also shown you

Wrong. Anybody with standard comprehension would realize why Jesus will send those people to hell... because the people DIDN'T DO the things listed in 42-43. It clearly says that, but your blind pride won't allow you to see it.

The word "save" in James 2 certainly has a bearing on salvation, it speaks of the same type of works that condemned the people to hell in Matt 25:41-46.
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Again...BALONEY...and again just your own erroneous private interpretation, Kevin.

Wow! You really showed me! Way to refute my arguement... which had proof texts and basic reasoning... with your empty rehtoric!! I'm impressed!

LOL...The word of alone does not need to be there. Is it saying there is more than faith required? NO. So it is faith alone without works...NOT OF WORKS. That's not private interpretation in the least, such as you do, because saying faith "alone" is accurately clarifying what is stated in the verse, which is we are saved by grace through faith (nothing more and nothing less...ALONE) NOT OF WORKS]/b]

It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't say what you want it to say, which you tried to ADD. The word "ALONE" isn't in there, and maybe someday you'll figure out what kind of faith Paul is talking about.

but why are you referring to John's baptism? I've been saying that being baptized in the name of the Lord (Jesus's baptism) is what saves.
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Oh stop playing dumb, You have not.

Playing dumb? Hardly. I've NEVER EVER EVER said that water baptism that saves is John's baptism. EVER. Ask c.moore, I'm sure he knows that I've always been talking about baptism in the name of the Lord, such as Acts 2:38.

Point out ONE time where I've said that John's baptism saves. ONCE. Go back through this thread... and you will find MANY OF MY POSTS which prove that I'm speaking about the baptism in the name of the Lord.

My response was to that typology thing of stages you threw out which Evangelion started

The fact that you were using John's baptism to answer that makes you answer illogical. Baptism in the name of the Lord came AFTER the baptism of John and AFTER Christ died on the cross... instituted at the Great Commission (Matt 28:19-20). The Lord's baptism is done with water (Acts 10:47-48), and meets the criteria for the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. Spirit baptism comes down in the air, looks like burning tounges (Acts 2:3) and rests on their head. How does that represent those 3 stages? It doesn't.

And gee.... what was the baptism that was used in the first gospel message to unbelievers? Why, baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38), which is done with water (Acts 10:47-48).

I'm not going on a merry-go-round ride with you over this.

Good.

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Heh... now that I see that Agape is an OSAS believer, I can see why we had a communication problem over James 2.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Evangelion,

Heh... now that I see that Agape is an OSAS believer, I can see why we had a communication problem over James 2.

My believing salvation in Christ is once and for all and permanent has absolutely nothing to do with you mishandling and twisting God's Word around and turning it into a lie.

You've turned the Grace of God, and the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins into WORKS for salvation. I doubt you and Evangelion realize the grave injustice you do to both God and His precious Son by saying the one who who laid down his own life our sins just wasn't good enough...he needs help with H20 and with our doing works for salvation.

You and Evangelion do not know God nor His Son, Jesus Christ, at all if you believe works is necessary for salvation.

How you can be so blind to the truth is really beyond me. It's written in the scriptures as plain as day.

 

[JustAChristian]

Not In Heaven's Rest.

Not In Heaven's Rest.

Originally posted by agape
Yep, you can sin and still be saved. You can sign up at the cross of Jesus Christ.

The heaven that I will go to will have no sinners...

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

JustAChristian

 

[agape]

Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Re: Not In Heaven's Rest.

Originally posted by JustAChristian
The heaven that I will go to will have no sinners...

Well I know I'll be there cuz my sins were totally remitted by the blood of Jesus Christ. I'm saved and have God's eternal-life spirit and incorruptible seed in me.

If Christ, our redeemer and savior did not totally cleanse us from sin, once and for all, then you will die a "sinner." If this is the case, and since no one at all can walk a perfectly sinless life then I guess I won't see you in heaven cuz there will be no sinners there.

My word, we do have so many "religious" people here who think they do God a favor by rejecting their full salvation in Christ only.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

My believing salvation in Christ is once and for all and permanent has absolutely nothing to do with you mishandling and twisting God's Word around and turning it into a lie.

Again, I'm not the one who is trying to ADD to what it written. And, yes, your OSAS certainly effects your view of James 2. For, if you don't believe that a person a can fall from the grace that saves them after they've accepted Christ, then of course you won't possibly view James 2 as having an effect upon their "salvation faith" or whatever you call it.

I find it funny that you critisize me for "blindly following and agreeing with" Evangelions supposed "unbiblical theory" and say that I have little knowledge of the word of God, when it is you who subscribes to a theory in which one can accept Christ and then live a complete life of sin with no repentance and still be saved. Talk about blindly following somebody's unbiblical theories....