The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

Jerry,

Do you mean to tell me that no one was saved before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes, that is correct. The sins commited by the people in the first covenent were not forgiven until Jesus died on the cross.

Hebrews 9:15
15) And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may recieve the promise of the eternal inheritance.

So yes, as stated before, there was no salvation before the death of Christ. If you still think there was, would you explain to me and everybody else why Christ came and died if there was salvation?

What about Enoch,who "was translated that he should not see death,and was not found,because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said:

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead,have ye not read,that which was spoken unto you by God,saying,I am the God of Abraham,and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob?God is not the God of the dead,but of the living"(Mt.22:31,32).

Do you not think that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob were saved before the death of the Lord Jesus?At the transfiguration some of the Apostles saw with their own eyes Moses and Elijah" speaking with the Lord (Mt.17:3).

Do you not think that Moses and Elijah were saved?

If the Lord decided to forgive them, then that's His choice, but it's obvious that the first covenent didn't bring salvation. Or, again, explain why Christ had to come and die if there was salvation.

I do not believe that it would be possible for the Holy Spirit to fall on Cornelius and his household if they remained in their sinful and unrighteous condition:

They were indeed in a sinful condtion because they had not yet been baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins. Peter clearly defined that baptism in the name of the Lord is for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. The Gentiles hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord yet and therefore they were still in a sinful condition.

The elders in Numbers 11:25 were also in a sinful condition, yet, the Holy Spirit fell on them and they prophecied. Did this save them? No. Because as I pointed out earlier, their transgressions were not forgiven until Christ came and died (Heb. 9:15). The falling of the HS did not save the elders in the book of numbers anymore than the gentiles in Acts 10.

Besides,Scripture states explicily that it was the "words" that would save Cornelius and his household.No mention whatsoever is made that the rite of water baptism had any saving value at all:

"And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house,who stood and said unto him,Send men to Joppa,and call for Simon,whose surname is Peter,who shall TELL THEE WORDS,BY WHICH THOU AND ALL THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED"(Acts11:13,14).

Yes, and what do you think those words were, Jerry? Peter told the Gentiles the same words that would save them just as he told the Jews in Acts 2 what would save them "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It's really simple... if they obey the words which Peter spoke, they would be saved. If they didn't obey the words, they wouldn't be saved. Simple as that. Hearing the gospel is NOT enough... you have to OBEY it:

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8) in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Baptism is certainly a part of the Gospel message... Jesus commanded it in the great commission. If one doesn't obey His gospel, that person is screwed.

"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word"(Acts10:44).

So it is obvious that God sent the word to them and they were saved indeed before they were water baptized.

Nope. They were still in a sinful condition as explained above. Therefore they were not saved.

 

[JustAChristian]

We are to be baptized!!

We are to be baptized!!

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

You are soooooooo correct when you say that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at this time. 'For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ'Gal.3:27).

According to Scripture,"by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

Here,it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the baptism into Christ.

Never even ONCE is the rite of "water baptism" said to baptize anyone into Christ.NOT ONCE.

ALL the evidence points to the fact that it is a Spiritual baptism that baptizes us into the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no evidence whatsoever that ties a rite of water baptism to our baptism into Christ.

By one Spirit are we baptized into Jesus Christ,and "as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:4)

Are we suppose to believe that we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ but "water baptized" into His death?

No,everything connected with our identification with His death and resurrection is through the Holy Spirit:

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

"Buried with Him in baptism,in which also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God,Who has raised Him from the dead"(Col.11,12).

CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS--"Circumcision is that of the heart,IN THE SPIRIT"(Ro.2:29).

RISEN WITH HIM--"Even when we were dead in sins,hath made us alive together with Christ...and hath raised us up together...in Christ Jesus." We are "made alive" by the Holy Spirit--Jn.6:63;1Pet.1:12.

together IN CHRIST--"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into...the Body of Christ...

It is so simple,JustAChristian.

We are saved by a Spiritual baptism.Nowhere does Scripture support the idea that we are IN CHRIST by a "water baptism".

However,you are correct that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at that time."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Gal.3:27).BUT the baptism is by ALL accounts a Spiritual baptism.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

You are failing to see one very important point. Baptism is a command in the imperative voice. We are to be baptized.. If we are not baptized, we can not be saved. Since Christ is to do the Holy Spirit baptism according to the preaching of John the baptizer, we can not be saved unless he does so. There is no evidence that the Ethopian eunuch knew anything about a Holy Spirit baptism, yet he said : "See here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?" (Acts 8:36) He did go down into the Holy Spirit with Philip but they went down into the water and Philip baptized him. Christ has finished his work on earth and now sit at the right hand of God ruling over his Kingdom the church. He left a law to obey. That Law commands baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 12:38). We can't obey Holy Spirit baptism, only water baptism. If you say that Christ is continueing Holy Spirit baptism, how can a person obey it? You need to think about that some more. God will only reward the faithful ( Hebrews 5:8-9).

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

First you say that no one was saved before the death of the Lord Jesus,then after I name a list of men that were obviously saved then you say that God could forgive them that is His choice.

One minute you say that none were saved and then you turn around and say that they might have been forgiven after all.

Scripture states that at the time of the Lord´s death God was able to remit the "sins that are past"(or sins in previous dispensations) that He had overlooked "through the forebearance of God"(Ro.3:25).

He could "overlook" the sins of believers who lived before the death of Christ knowing that He could put their sins on Christ on the Cross.He also overlooked the ignorance of the Gentiles knowing that He could also put their sins on the Lord Jesus at the Cross:

"And the times of this ignorance God overlooked,but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent"(Acts17:30).

That is how a righteous God saved Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Moses,and even the Gentile Rahab.The list of those saved before the death of the Lord Jesus goes on and on,and can be found at Hebrews 11:4-32.

For instance,God was able to declare Abraham "righteous",or RIGHT before God,thousands of years before the Lord Jesus died on the Cross:

"And he believed inthe Lord;and He counted it to him for righteousness"(Gen.15:6).

And Scripture reveals that after Lazarus died he "was carried by the angels into Abraham´s bosom",while the rich man "also died" and ended up in hades (Lk.16:22,23).

Lazarus was saved and the rich man was not!

So as you can see there is plenty of Scriptual evidence that many were saved before Christ died,and God was able to save them by overlooking their sins all the while knowing that He would be able to place their sins on the Lord Jesus when He died upon the Cross.

Therefore,He would be able to save the elders that received the Holy Spirit in the same way that He saved Abraham.He could declare them "righteous" because of their faith just like He did Abraham.

And I find it impossible that the Holy Spirit could possibly fall upon any one who remained in their sins,because "righteousness" can have no part with "unrighteousness":

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you"(Isa.59:2).

And if the Lord Jesus could declare Abraham "righteous" because of his faith,why couldn´t he also declare Cornelius and his household "righteous" because of their faith in believing the gospel?

And if it would take their faith PLUS a "water baptism",why did the Lord only mention "believing the word" as the way that they would be saved?:

"Who shall TELL THEE WORDS BY WHICH THOU AND ALL THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED"(Acts11:14).

No mention whatsoever about salvation by submitting to a rite of "water baptism".

No,Scripture declares in no uncertain terms that Cornelius and his household were saved when they heard and believed the gospel.They were saved before they were water baptized,and since this does not fit your ideas you are forced to grab at wild theories,such as the idea that no one was saved before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ--even thoughthere is substantial evidence to the contrary.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

If one needs to submit to a rite of water baptism before he is saved,how do you explain the fact that Cornelius and his household were saved even BEFORE they were baptized with water?Why did the angel say that they would be saved by hearing the "word",but makes no mention whatsoever that they would be saved by submitting to the rite of water baptism?:

"Who shall tell thee words,by which thou and all thy house shall be saved"(Acts11:14).

If "water baptism" was necessary for salvation then we would expect the angel to say,"Who shall tell thee words and baptize thee with water,by which thou and all thy house shall be saved.

But that is not what the angel said.And what actually happened demonstrate beyond any doubt that a "water baptism" was NOT necessary for salvation,as Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.

It is obvious that Cornelius and his household were in fact saved,as evidenced by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit:

"So,then,they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if so be that THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU.Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,he is none of His"(Ro.8:8,9).

So if we believe the Holy Scriptures,there is only one conclusion.Cornelius and his household were saved by believing the "word of God" and they were saved BEFORE they were water baptized.

Would you please address these points?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

here is a good lesson on spritual baptism.

kevin and Justachristian this is good that you check this out :up:

http://www.cornerstonebc.com/spiritb.htm

Let God Bless you

 

[JustAChristian]

Word Whereby They were saved.

Word Whereby They were saved.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

If one needs to submit to a rite of water baptism before he is saved,how do you explain the fact that Cornelius and his household were saved even BEFORE they were baptized with water?Why did the angel say that they would be saved by hearing the "word",but makes no mention whatsoever that they would be saved by submitting to the rite of water baptism?:

"Who shall tell thee words,by which thou and all thy house shall be saved"(Acts11:14).

If "water baptism" was necessary for salvation then we would expect the angel to say,"Who shall tell thee words and baptize thee with water,by which thou and all thy house shall be saved.

But that is not what the angel said.And what actually happened demonstrate beyond any doubt that a "water baptism" was NOT necessary for salvation,as Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.

It is obvious that Cornelius and his household were in fact saved,as evidenced by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit:

"So,then,they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if so be that THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU.Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,he is none of His"(Ro.8:8,9).

So if we believe the Holy Scriptures,there is only one conclusion.Cornelius and his household were saved by believing the "word of God" and they were saved BEFORE they were water baptized.

Would you please address these points?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

You're running scared!! You think you've got me! Well, think again. Peter said that the angel said some one would come who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. (Acts 11:17). You see, it was not the Holy Spirit that saved Cornelius, but the messasge from Peter telling them what they had to do. Salvation is found in gospel (Romans 1:16). Peter began to preach the gospel, the Holy Spirit came to convenience the Jews that what they were doing was approved of God (Acts 11:17-18), Then Peter said, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? AND HE COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." (Acts 10:47-48). You see, Peter told them WORDS WHEREBY THEE AND THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED! He commanded Cornelius and his house to be baptized. They were baptized in water, because Peter couldn't baptize them in the Holy Spirit. When Cornelius obeyed the word, he and his household was saved. If this is not the fact, then tell me why!

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Since you are saying that they were not saved until they were water baptized,how do you explain the fact that the Holy Spirit fell on them BEFORE they were baptized in water?

Can "righteouness have a part with unrighteousness?God forbid!

If they are not saved,then they remain in their sins.And "sins" separate the sinner from God:

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God;your sins have hidden His face from yours"(Isa.59:2).

It is inconceivable that the Holy Spirit would fall on Cornelius if he remained in His sin.Therefore,it is obvious that he was saved BEFORE he was water baptized,thus proving that submitting to a rite of "water baptism" is not required for salvation.

What happened is clear.Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius,saying at the end:

"To Him give all the prophets witness,that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins"(Acts10:43)

It says,"whosoever believeth IN HIM shall receive remission of sins."

However,you disagree with these plain words that they would be saved by believing in Him,the Lord Jesus Christ.

You say that it was "the message from Peter telling them what TO DO that saved them." And you say that it was Peter´s command to be baptized that saved them.That couldn´t be further from the truth!

To continue,after Cornelius heard the words that Peter preached,he then believeth in the Lord Jesus Christ.He received forgiveness of sins,and he wasn´t yet baptized in water.

He was saved by the word spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"...have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven"(1Pet.1:12).

The reason that His Word is called the Living Word is because it comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only,but also in power,and in the Holy Spirit"(1Thess.5).

The moment He believed he was "baptized" by the Holy Spirit into Christ(1Cor.12:13),and He was also "risen with Him" by the same operation of the Holy Spirit (Col.2:12).

The Jews asked the Lord,"What shall we do,that we might work the works of God?

"Jesus answered and said unto them,This is the work of God,that ye BELIEVE ON HIM Whom He hath sent"(Jn.6:28,29).

Cornelius believed IN HIM and was saved,being baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirt--and all that before a drop of water even touched him.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[revhleonard]

Re: Word Whereby They were saved.

Re: Word Whereby They were saved.

Originally posted by JustAChristian



Jerry,

You're running scared!! You think you've got me! Well, think again. Peter said that the angel said some one would come who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. (Acts 11:17). You see, it was not the Holy Spirit that saved Cornelius, but the messasge from Peter telling them what they had to do. Salvation is found in gospel (Romans 1:16). Peter began to preach the gospel, the Holy Spirit came to convenience the Jews that what they were doing was approved of God (Acts 11:17-18), Then Peter said, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? AND HE COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." (Acts 10:47-48). You see, Peter told them WORDS WHEREBY THEE AND THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED! He commanded Cornelius and his house to be baptized. They were baptized in water, because Peter couldn't baptize them in the Holy Spirit. When Cornelius obeyed the word, he and his household was saved. If this is not the fact, then tell me why!

JustAChristian

Saved by the word, and i thought we were saved by grace, silly me.......

A new revelation i now give to you. "Jerry got you allright". Some people just don't know when they been got......

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

This point is, even with the expamples you have shown, that the sins of the first covenant were not forgiven until the death of Christ. This is clearly stated in Hebrews 9:15. It clearly states in there that Jesus died so that "those who are called may recieve the promise of the eternal inheritance."

So if Christ had to die so that they would recieve the promise of eternal inheritance, then they never would have recieved it unless He died which means they weren't saved!

I would like you to explain why Jesus came to earth and died. Explain that, Jerry.

And I find it impossible that the Holy Spirit could possibly fall upon any one who remained in their sins,because "righteousness" can have no part with "unrighteousness":

Certainly He could. Can you prove that the elders were sinless? According to Heb. 9:15 when were their transgressions forgiven?? When? When Christ died, that's when. Therefore they were in a state of sin when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. All men fall short of the glory of God and sin, which would include those elders. The point is, unless you can prove they were sinless, the Holy Spirit fell upon them when they were in a state of not having their sins forgiven, which didn't happen until Christ died!

The same with goes for the Gentiles in Acts 10. They were NOT freed from sin when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Baptism is what frees them from sin (Romans 6:7). Peter knew this, because he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord, which is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). It was THEN that they put away their old man of sin, being free from sin, and being alive to God (Romans 6:3-11). Just what do you think being baptized in the name of the Lord does for people?!

And if it would take their faith PLUS a "water baptism",why did the Lord only mention "believing the word" as the way that they would be saved?:

The problem here is that you don't know that the word is. If you did, you would understand that baptism is a part of the word preached to sinners just like in Acts 2:38. When Peter told them what to do to be saved, what did He tell them, Jerry? He told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. They believed it and obeyed. Belief on it's own is a dead belief. Don't you know that faith without works is dead? Shall I list some of the many verses that deal with keeping His commandments being necessary for salvation?

You act as if the words themselves saved them. Please! You mean all I have to do is go out and by a megaphone and speak the word... and whoever hears it will automatically be saved whether they obey it or not?! Words won't save anybody unless they are obeyed. Peter spoke the words that would save them, and it included baptism which frees you from sin. Baptism now saves you! (1 Peter 3:21).

 

[Kevin]

revhleonard,

Some people just don't know when they been got......

You should take a long, hard look in the mirror sometime...

 

[c.moore]

Kevin and Justachristian

Did you read this link I gave you on the spiritual baptism?


What do you think about it?

Is there no such thing as a spiritual baptism?

Do we worship Jesus in water and truth ,or spirit and truth?

God is a Spirit, He is not A water, and his world is the unseen world, like the bible says beleive those things that are not as if they are.

Kevin you mention about the word of the gospel can`t bring salvation, then if this is true why do we neeed confession?

Why do we need to repent?

Why does the bible say death and life is in the tongue?

Another thing that you don`t get is that you think you must work for everything, but have you heard of God divine favor on us?

Do you really understand what a gift is , and you don`t get a gift by earning it or obeying for it?

Just to show you how wrong you are let`s take A look at the bible , and I think this might get you out of your overtime works and stop you from punching your heavenly salavation clock.

Ge:1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge:1:2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ge:1:4: And God saw the light, that it was good:

How did God create? Did he do any works, or commandments?

We know that Jesus is the creator and He has a body according to Col:1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col:1:17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

How much work did Jesus do with His hands and feet, did He mold everything out?

Of course not, everything was made by the words if you look at verse 3.
Sence we are in God Image we have the same rights and power to create with our word, and words can brings salvation by faith, read Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

That why by preaching and teaching this build our faith to believe and get saved, and get salvation.

Look at How jesus always said; your faith has made you whole, or so great of faithI have never seen, and look how Jesus commanded demons to leave by His Words.

If death and life is in my tongue, know I can speak to myself and say I am the righteousness of God , and I am Just before God , and I am saved because I believe and I have eternal this must come true, because I have the power in the tongue even to call healing on my life that why I think it important when we read the bible to read out loud to yourself so you can hear and you faith will grow by the Word of God.

Before I lay hands on anybody to heal them I first prach the Word of God and I tellthem about Isa:53:5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
AND
1Pe:2:24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

So when people hear the Word of God something happens because the Word Of God is life in itself, that why it the living word not the dead word. The Word of God give us eternal life that why it caled testaments and the tetament is for us like if somebody makes out a well to you you just take it and everything included in the well with out doing anything, except maybe sign on the dotted line, or like salvation just believe and accept.
Sence I am An evangelist I know How powerful words are, and I know by preaching and teaching the anointed word it bring good tides and open the door to salvation by believing by faith to make anybody whole physically , mentally , and spiritually.



Let God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Hey Rev Henry Leonard

you have a nice Web Site, and A friend I do have in Jesus.

God Bless you

 

[Kevin]

C.Moore,

Kevin and Justachristian

Did you read this link I gave you on the spiritual baptism?

No, not really. I gave a very brief glance. I really don't have the time to read and refute all of those arguements. Shall I give you links to websites that support my view and ask you to comment on them?

If you have points that you want to make, make them, but don't reference a book (when I say book, I mean that it's so much material that it could be a book).

Kevin you mention about the word of the gospel can`t bring salvation, then if this is true why do we neeed confession?

I said no such thing. I said the words themselves don't save you. What I did say is: "Words won't save anybody unless they are obeyed." Did you miss that?

Just to show you how wrong you are let`s take A look at the bible , and I think this might get you out of your overtime works and stop you from punching your heavenly salavation clock.

Ge:1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge:1:2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ge:1:4: And God saw the light, that it was good:

How did God create? Did he do any works, or commandments?

It took you quite a while to answer my questions about those verse regarding keeping His commandments. Since you answered them, I've asked you more questions about your given answers. Your silence speaks volumes. You haven't proven anything.

You couldn't even answer the simple yes or no question I posed to you. Were the people in Matt. 25:41-46 thrown into Hell because of their lack of works: YES OR NO?

Your last answer about that question involved predestination and being God's elect. At no point did you answer my simple, simple question. Yes or No? Can you do it?

 

[c.moore]

Quote kevin

You couldn't even answer the simple yes or no question I posed to you. Were the people in Matt. 25:41-46 thrown into Hell because of their lack of works: YES OR NO?

Sorry if I miss you questions and if I do just remind me , because i would what my questions answered as well.
So I will according to your verse you ask in Matt 25 which was recordedin the time 4 bc-ad 33 and this was something said by Jesus so it`s before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift there at that time to my understanding I must say the truth YES.

What are you going to compare this with Kevin, because I see where your coming from but it won`t work out the way you think it is.
We live in a grace time, and mercyful time, and the favor of God is on alot of believer and unbelievers.

Is there such thing in the bible which is called the spiritual baptism Kevin?

What does this Spiritual baptism mean to you ; and is it more or less important than the natural water flesly baptism?

Is our natural life more important to God than our spiritual life?

Is our natural worship more important to God than our spiritual worship?

one thing I would like to point out befor I hope you answer my question is that the bible says:Joh:4:22: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh:4:23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Another example I forgot that I just seen is sence I think I understand about your baptism is that everytime baptism is mention in the bible you think it means water baptism , and when you get baptized it must be in the name of Jesus am I correct?

just to show you that you can get a deeper understanding of the truth when you are spritual more than your carnal thinking the bible says : 1Co:2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

This is why freak,RevLeonard,Jerry, and myself see different than you, because we are in the spiritual world and in the spirtual understanding of God and his wisdom according to 1Co:2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

look ; Brother kevin at Joh:4:13: Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh:4:14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh:4:15: The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

what water do you think this is that Jesus is talking about ?

Is this the natural water that she draws or is this a spiritual water?

if you say this is a spiritual water that flows from the inside of us then you can discern the same with the baptism.
the same way this is revealed about a natural thirst and a spirtual thirst is the same way we know about the baptism kevin.

the only reason why you might get the same understanding as us is because no one made a man made doctrine out of John 4 :13 yet or as far as I know. When somebody doesn`t understand the spiritual part of the bible on this , they will start a thread called :Message to the World:go drink to be filled.
I hope you get my point to be an eye opener for you, because we just love you my brother.
i don`t think nobody on this thread is trying to show off to show you they are better than you or you make you look like a fool, so they can walk in pride and say I know everything and can prove everybody wrong.
It all about Love Kevin ,and unity ,because when we all are real christians in one body of Jesus in the spirit, not in the natuarl Kevin.
by the way here is the other web site about the man raising the dead and you can find medical records by going through this man, and guess what, this man believe the same as us that we are saved by faith only and it is a gift, check it out when you have time.

http://www.robertsliardon.org/gener...nerals2.html#sw)

Let God Bless you
peace

 

[c.moore]

Good morning Kevin
I see that your online.I`ll be waiting for your anwers

peace

 

[Kevin]

Fear not C.Moore. My response will come.

It may be a little while though. I'm preparing a lesson for Sunday morning on BAPTISM.

Don't you worry though, I will most certainly respond. Count on it.

 

[revhleonard]

Originally posted by Kevin
revhleonard,



You should take a long, hard look in the mirror sometime...

Excellant advice Kevin. Consider it done, being done, and will continue to be done.

 

[revhleonard]

Water baptism saves no one; Jesus saves.....

 

[Evangelion]

Rev -

Water baptism saves no one; Jesus saves.....

False dichotomy.

And in any case, if you're going to walk down that road, I could just as easily say that it's faith that saves...

So now you have a choice - Jesus or faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You are so lost in your beliefs that even though the words are right there in BLACK AND WHITE you are blinded to them.

Peter told Cornelius and his household "that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remesssion of sins"(Acts10:43).

You cannot believe this though,because it goes against the teaching that you have received by man.

You ignore the plain words from Peter to Cornelius that "whosoever believth in Him shall receive remession of sins" and state that "it was the message from Peter telling them WHAT TO DO that saved them."

And then when this is pointed out to you,you just IGNORE IT,just like you IGNORED the Scripture passage that completely demolishes your ideas of "water baptism".

If you think that you are believing the Scriptures you are mistaken.You may believe them when they correspond with what man tells you.But when the Scriptures disagree with what you have been taught by man,you agree with the teaching of man every time.

"But the natural mind receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God;for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry