The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[revhleonard]

Jerry Shugart:
How is it possible for one to read the bible and conclude that water baptism saves. I thought that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. I have not concluded that this is what you believe, you just have a way of explaining yourself that i can usually understand (don't always agree, but most of the time i do understand.

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Agnostic
Baptism doesn't work unless ya use soap.

Maybe that is about all you'll get out of it, but to the spiritual minded it is an effectual cleansing with the blood of Jesus Christ.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

How Was Noah Saved By Water?

How Was Noah Saved By Water?

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Kevin,

I have repeatedly heard those who believe that "water" baptism saves using 1Peter3:20-21 to bolster their case.But to this point no one has been able to tell me HOW the eight souls were saved by a "water baptism".

Would you please be kind enough to explain how "water baptism" saved these souls,especially considering the fact that none of the eight souls were ever touched with water.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,
Check this lesson out http://www.bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_03.htm for a lesson on Noah's salvation.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Peter's teaching on Salvation through baptism.

Peter's teaching on Salvation through baptism.

Originally posted by revhleonard
Jerry Shugart:
How is it possible for one to read the bible and conclude that water baptism saves. I thought that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. I have not concluded that this is what you believe, you just have a way of explaining yourself that i can usually understand (don't always agree, but most of the time i do understand.

Let me encourage you to check this link on water baptism as taught by Peter the apostle:

http://www.bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_03.htm

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Peter's Lesson on Water baptism and salvation.

Peter's Lesson on Water baptism and salvation.

Originally posted by Melody
I agree that one needs to be baptized in the spirit but one also needs to be baptized in the flesh.

Baptism in Jesus" name is water baptism and is for the remission of sins.

Baptism of the Holy Ghost is for power to walk in newness of life.

It is all part of one baptism.

When one is born in the natural one leaves the watery world of the womb and receiving nutrition and oxygen from the mother and enters a new world where one must breathe in oxegen and eat food on one's own to continue to live.

Spiritually we must leave the old world behind and our sins are washed away through water baptism and we are received into a new family with the assumption of the name of Jesus.
But we will die to this spiritual world if we do not accept the spiritual power of the Holy Ghost. For it is through the gift of the Holy Ghost that we receive power and are sealed unto Him.

Just as one cannot seperate the successful completion of all the parts of the natural birth and have a successful new child one cannot seperate all the elements of the new birh process and have a successful birth of a new child of God.

Melody,

Take a look at this lesson by clicking on the link:

http://www.bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_03.htm

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Revleonard,

I am not saying that submitting to the rite of water baptism saves anyone.

It is the Spirit that gives life,and nothing done through the flesh profits anyone in the present dispensation:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life;THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING.The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Melody,

If you will read the site listed by JustAChristian on Peter´s teaching on water baptism that teaches that water baptism is but a "type".

And the Lord´s words in regard to being born of water and of the Spirit is a "type" of the baptism of the Spirit.The Lord told Nicodemus,"If I have told you EARTHLY THINGS ("type") and you believed not,how shall ye believe,if I tell you heavenly things?"(Jn.3:12).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Melody]

Baptism in Jesus' name is required.

God has always required man to do his part.

Noah was requred to build the ark.

Abraham was required to leave his home and to offer his son.

Job was required to pray for those that came against him.

The blood was required to be placed on the posts.

Baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus is for the remission of sins and is a requirement.

Jesus was baptized in water.


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Jhn 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all [men] come to him.

Philip baptized but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Philip and the eunuch went down into the water to be baptized.

Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Peter baptized in water the house of Cornelieous after they had received the Holy Ghost.

Paul rebaptized the followers of John into the name of Jesus and then prayed and they received the Holy Ghost.

Paul was baptized of Ananias in the name of Jesus for the washing away of his sins.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[revhleonard]

I give up

 

[JustAChristian]

John 6:63

John 6:63

Originally posted by revhleonard
I give up

Are you listening to this verse.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

First of all, the spirit is not the Holy Spirit, it is the spirit within oneself. Life is not in the flesh but in the spirit. Jesus likens the words that he spoke to spirit. They are life giving. When we listen and follow the word, there is life. Nothing can be denied that is in the word. To do so is to quince the life giving force. Listen to the word. Let it enrich your life. Do not die by denying any of the teaching of Jesus. He said that the New Birth comes by obedience to truth (as Peter relates in 1 Peter 1:21-22). Faith is truth so we must obey faith. Repentance is truth, so we must obey repentance. Confession is truth, so we must obey confession. Baptism is truth, so we must obey baptism. Walking in newness of life is truth, so we must obey walking in newness of life. To shun any part of the word is to fail any benefits of the word. Trust Jesus and try not to rationalize his intent. Believe his word for it is life giving.

JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

Before I begin I would like to say praise God for Jerry Shugart, that he has the same understanding of the bible as myself, and also freak and Revleanard, please don`t give up because we need more people to join in spreading the truth so the other brothers and sister can grow in faith, and rightly divide the Word of God.

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Is this scripture taken about water baptism sence baptism is mention in the scripture?

How do one know when baptism is mention in a scripture ,if it is water baptism or the most important baptism the Spiritual baptism?

As we walk through our christian life we get renewed in the mind and this is a process and it starts as soon as you recieves jesus in your heart, and even if you get baptized or as soon as you come out the water you are still the same person nothing changes in you at that moment , but as you walk through your christian life you go to a new level, like going to school, you start from 1st grade not college.
So the recieving Jesus in your heart is the door to heaven, and the water baptism is in your walk with Jesus ,obeying His commandment ,that why the bible says:Ro:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

In our renewing of the mind process in obeying Christ commandments is the water baptism included .In our walk , and not the water baptism is the door to salvation,only the blood of Jesus saves and this is done by faith in the spiritual world, and the spritual baptism is the one that counts for your salvation, this is why I ask about how do you know if a scripture is talking about water baptism or spiritual baptism like mark 16:16, and make a doctrine out of baptism. I obey and get baptized because this is in my christian walk after getting saved ba trusting and believing on Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The spiritual world and faith is the ticket to heaven and where your name is written in the book of life.Joh:6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh:6:64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
In becoming saved we accept Jesus in our heart and we do get baptized in the spirt, and our spiritual man come alive and we are alive in Christ in the spirtual baptism, and the only way we can show this is by the symbol by water baptism to others and for yourself so that you can walk through your christian life going to glory to glory everyday.



I hope this blesses somebody

God

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

I find it impossible to believe that the word "spirit" at John 6:63 refers to "the spirit within oneself".

The spirit that is within us all does not give life.It is the Word of God that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit that gives life.And His word cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit:

"...them that have preached the gospel unto you WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT sent down from heaven..."(1Pet.1:12).

"For our gospel came not unto you in WORD ONLY,but also in power,and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT..."(1Thess.1:5).

So it is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit that quickens the soul that is dead in sins.

Melody,

There comes a time when the Spiritual Christian must learn the difference between thing which are Spiritual and things which are natural.We must not continue to compare "natural" things with "spiritual" things,but instead began to "compare spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:12).

The Israelite who sinned was told to bring an offering to the altar "and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done:and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him"(Lev.19:22).

By "faith" the Israelite would bring the offering,but it was not the offering which took away his sins,but instead it was the "faith" of the Israelite:

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins"(Heb.10:4).

The same can be said of the rite of water baptism.The sinnerwas told to submit to this rite in order to "wash away thy sins"(Acts22:16).

Believers were told to follow all these rites,but at the time they were still in the dark that the blood of goats could not take away sins.Now we know that our salvation is completely Spiritual,and no amount of water can wash away sins.These rites were merely "types",or illustrations using earthly things in order to demonstrate SPIRITUAL truths.

We are told to go on to maturity,and to do this it is necessary to rightly divide the word of God between the things that are natural,earthly and temporal and the things that are spiritual,heavenly and eternal.

If you will attempt to do this,you will see that your understanding of the Scriptures will be greatly increased.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

You base your belief that water baptism is for salvation during the present dispensation on Mark16:16.

What about the following verse which says,"And these signs shall follow those who believe:In My name shall they cast out demons;they shall speak with new tongues;they shall take up serpents;and if they drink any deadly things,it shall not hurt them;they shall lay hands on the sick,and they shall recover"(Mk.16:17,18).

These verses make it plain that all that BELIEVE will be able to heal the sick and cast out demons as well as drinking poison without hurting them.Can you do these things?

No, I can't do those things. I think I have an idea where you're going with this. If I can't do those things spoken of after Mark 16:16, then Mark 16:16 doesn't apply today... right? Good luck in trying to prove to me and others that God's plan for salvation changed aftrer Jesus had already died on the cross. What we do have is scripture that would explain why we can't do those miraculous things today.

I have repeatedly heard those who believe that "water" baptism saves using 1Peter3:20-21 to bolster their case.But to this point no one has been able to tell me HOW the eight souls were saved by a "water baptism".

I don't know if I would refer to a flood as a "water baptism". Technically, it could, I suppose. Quite simply the eight souls were saved through the waters of the flood from the perverse people of the world.

Would you please be kind enough to explain how "water baptism" saved these souls,especially considering the fact that none of the eight souls were ever touched with water.

You're trying to compare the two in too similar of a fashion. Thats why baptism is referred to as an "antitype", because it has a different purpose than that of the flood. Noah and the other eight souls did not have to touch the flood waters to be delivered from that generation. Why would they touch the waters when they are safe in the ark?

The purpose of baptism into Jesus is meant for an entirely different purpose. The water itself, while it is used in the baptism of the Lord, doesn't save. It is a chosen element by God that represents our death, burial and resurrection into a new sinless creature. Until we've entered the waters, we have not been freed from sin, because it is through baptism that we die with Christ and are freed form sin as stated in Romans 6.

1 Peter 3:21 is definitely referring to water baptism. For Peter, the same man who wrote 1 Peter 3:21, gave us a crystal clear picutre on how baptism is done in Acts 10:47-48. It's done with water. Pual also baptized people in the name of the Lord, which is done with water. And it certainly has different purpose than John's water baptism or Paul wouldn't have rebaptize them into the Lord in Acts 19:5. Both use water, but only one of them allows them to be baptzed into Jesus, which is being baptized in the His name.

 

[Melody]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

I find it impossible to believe that the word "spirit" at John 6:63 refers to "the spirit within oneself".

The spirit that is within us all does not give life.It is the Word of God that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit that gives life.And His word cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit:

"...them that have preached the gospel unto you WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT sent down from heaven..."(1Pet.1:12).

"For our gospel came not unto you in WORD ONLY,but also in power,and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT..."(1Thess.1:5).

So it is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit that quickens the soul that is dead in sins.

Melody,

There comes a time when the Spiritual Christian must learn the difference between thing which are Spiritual and things which are natural.We must not continue to compare "natural" things with "spiritual" things,but instead began to "compare spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:12).

The Israelite who sinned was told to bring an offering to the altar "and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done:and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him"(Lev.19:22).

By "faith" the Israelite would bring the offering,but it was not the offering which took away his sins,but instead it was the "faith" of the Israelite:

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins"(Heb.10:4).

The same can be said of the rite of water baptism.The sinnerwas told to submit to this rite in order to "wash away thy sins"(Acts22:16).

Believers were told to follow all these rites,but at the time they were still in the dark that the blood of goats could not take away sins.Now we know that our salvation is completely Spiritual,and no amount of water can wash away sins.These rites were merely "types",or illustrations using earthly things in order to demonstrate SPIRITUAL truths.

We are told to go on to maturity,and to do this it is necessary to rightly divide the word of God between the things that are natural,earthly and temporal and the things that are spiritual,heavenly and eternal.

If you will attempt to do this,you will see that your understanding of the Scriptures will be greatly increased.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Melody]

IF you have the gift of the Holy Ghost, it IS the spirit within you that gives life!

Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

For the spirit of the Holy Ghost is the spirit of Christ!

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Melody,

During the time that the Lord said that "it is the Spirit that giveth life"(Jn.6:63) it is a fact that believers were being made alive.The Lord also said:

"he that heareth My word,and believeth...is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

So while the Lord was on earth there were many sinners passed from death unto life,and it is a Scriptual fact that the Holy Spirit was not yet dwelling in believers.Notice the Lord´s words in respect to the Comforter,or Holy Spirit:

"...for if I go not away,the Comforter will not come unto you;but if I depart,I will send Him unto you"(Jn.16:7).

Therefore,it was NOT the Spirit that dwelled in the believers that gave them mortal life,but instead it was the Words of the Lord that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore,the following verse has another meaning than the one you attempted to put on it:

"But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you"(Ro.8:11).

This is speaking of the Holy Spirit affecting our walk here on earth after we have been "born of the Spirit".Once we are born of the Spirit THEN the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in our mortal bodies in order that we might be "conformed to the image of His Son"(v.29).

The Holy Spirit gives a CHRISTLIKE LIFE to our mortal bodies after we are saved.This is in reference to our "walk" and NOT in reference to our "born again" experience:

"But we all,with unveiled face beholding in a mirror the glory of the Lord,ARE CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from glory to glory,even AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD"(2Cor.3:18).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JustAChristian]

The Baptism that Peter Taught.

The Baptism that Peter Taught.

Originally posted by c.moore
Before I begin I would like to say praise God for Jerry Shugart, that he has the same understanding of the bible as myself, and also freak and Revleanard, please don`t give up because we need more people to join in spreading the truth so the other brothers and sister can grow in faith, and rightly divide the Word of God.

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Is this scripture taken about water baptism sence baptism is mention in the scripture?

How do one know when baptism is mention in a scripture ,if it is water baptism or the most important baptism the Spiritual baptism?

As we walk through our christian life we get renewed in the mind and this is a process and it starts as soon as you recieves jesus in your heart, and even if you get baptized or as soon as you come out the water you are still the same person nothing changes in you at that moment , but as you walk through your christian life you go to a new level, like going to school, you start from 1st grade not college.
So the recieving Jesus in your heart is the door to heaven, and the water baptism is in your walk with Jesus ,obeying His commandment ,that why the bible says:Ro:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

In our renewing of the mind process in obeying Christ commandments is the water baptism included .In our walk , and not the water baptism is the door to salvation,only the blood of Jesus saves and this is done by faith in the spiritual world, and the spritual baptism is the one that counts for your salvation, this is why I ask about how do you know if a scripture is talking about water baptism or spiritual baptism like mark 16:16, and make a doctrine out of baptism. I obey and get baptized because this is in my christian walk after getting saved ba trusting and believing on Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The spiritual world and faith is the ticket to heaven and where your name is written in the book of life.Joh:6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh:6:64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
In becoming saved we accept Jesus in our heart and we do get baptized in the spirt, and our spiritual man come alive and we are alive in Christ in the spirtual baptism, and the only way we can show this is by the symbol by water baptism to others and for yourself so that you can walk through your christian life going to glory to glory everyday.



I hope this blesses somebody

God

c.morris,

You need a lot of spiritual assistance. Read this good lesson of the baptism that Peter taught.

Take a look at this lesson by clicking on the link:

http://www.bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_03.htm

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
JustAChristian

Here is a lesson on baptism that Peter taught.

Take a look at this lesson by clicking on the link:

http://www.bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_03.htm

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Earlier I did not correctly read your site on Peter´s baptism before I recommended it to Melody.After re-reading it,I find that I couldn´t disagree more!

Albert Barnes misses the point entirely in his understanding of "types" and "anti-types".

A "type" is an illustration using things from the natural,temporal,earthly sphere to demonstrate some "spititual,eternal and heavenly" truth--which is the anti-type.

For instance the "passover lamb" that was sacrificed in Egypt is a "type" of "Christ,our passover"(1Cor.5:7).

Here,the "passover lamb" in Egypt is an illustration using things from the natural,temporal,and earthly sphere.And this illustration is used to demonstrate a part of the meaning of the work of the Spiritual,eternal and heavenly Lord Jesus Christ.

Mr.Barnes makes a mistake when he attempts to make the water of the flood,from the earthly sphere,to be a "type" of another thing from the earthly sphere.That is not the way "types" are used in the Scriptures.

In the case of 1Peter3:20,21 we can clearly see that "water" is the "type" and the "anti-type" is the "Spirit baptism".

"...eight souls were saved by water;the like figure unto which even baptism doth also now save us.

In what way does our Spiritual baptism now save us.When we are Spiritually baptized into Christ (1Cor.12:13,27) we are also baptized into His death:

"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:3).

By dying our death the Lord Jesus Christ has saved us from eternal death.We are saved from death by death.

And how is this "Spiritual baptism" the "like figure" of the "water" which saved the eight souls?

Well,that which represented "death" to the world,the water,bore up the ark and saved the eight souls from physical death.So they were also saved from death by that which represented death.

This is the correct interpretation of the verse.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

How do one know when baptism is mention in a scripture ,if it is water baptism or the most important baptism the Spiritual baptism?

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

How do one know when baptism is mention in a scripture ,if it is water baptism or the most important baptism the Spiritual baptism?

The apostle Paul says that there is one baptism. One. All we need to do is find a examples in the Bible on how baptism is performed.

Well, we know from Acts 19: 5 that Paul, the same man who said there is ONE baptism, preached that people were to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Peter also baptized people in the name of the Lord. All we need to do now is establish how being baptized in the name of the Lord works. Here it is:

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit Just as we have?
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It is here that the clear connection between water and the baptism in the name of the Lord can be made. Again, both Peter and Paul baptized in the name of the Lord, which uses water. And considering that Paul said there is ONE baptism, the baptism in the name of the Lord is it, because that's what Paul practiced.

1 Peter 3:21, who was written by Peter - who commanded the Gentiles to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord, is speaking of water baptism, because Peter himself practiced it. Why would Peter practice water baptism and preach another baptism in 1 Peter 3:21 considering that there is ONE baptism? He wouldn't.

Philip baptized the eunuch in water after preaching Jesus to him in Acts 8:38.

There's plenty of evidence to show that the ONE baptism is speaking of water baptism - because that's exactly what the apostles practiced.