Evangelion
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That's the way, Kevin!
Boom, boom, boom - business as usual!
Boom, boom, boom - business as usual!
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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JustAChristian
New member
Jerry, have you ever heard of "context"?
Jerry, have you ever heard of "context"?
Jerry,
You always have to consider CONTEXT in light of biblical interpretation. Peter is relating the likeness of water saving Noah and his family when it seperated them from the sinful world in distruction. He then says that a likeness is in relationship when we are immersed in water. We are seperated from sins as they are washed away (Acts 22:16). It is simple, Jerry, and Barnes did get it right! Holy Spirit baptism was never intended or used for cleansing. It was for imparting power to the apostles so they could do their asssignment, and as a sign for the Jews that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel, nothing more!
I have further to say on water baptism in this lesson that I recently taught.
There are but two passages of Scripture that tell us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own volition at a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end. It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And it is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16).
Summarizing, let us say that baptism produces forgiveness of sins because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity, and that we can be saved some other way?
JustAChristian
Jerry, have you ever heard of "context"?
Jerry,
You always have to consider CONTEXT in light of biblical interpretation. Peter is relating the likeness of water saving Noah and his family when it seperated them from the sinful world in distruction. He then says that a likeness is in relationship when we are immersed in water. We are seperated from sins as they are washed away (Acts 22:16). It is simple, Jerry, and Barnes did get it right! Holy Spirit baptism was never intended or used for cleansing. It was for imparting power to the apostles so they could do their asssignment, and as a sign for the Jews that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel, nothing more!
I have further to say on water baptism in this lesson that I recently taught.
There are but two passages of Scripture that tell us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own volition at a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end. It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And it is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16).
Summarizing, let us say that baptism produces forgiveness of sins because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity, and that we can be saved some other way?
JustAChristian
Last edited:
Melody
New member
I agree with all your post with one addition, That name which baptism is to be administered in is the name of Jesus.
Jesus commanded baptism in "THE NAME" of the father, of the son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Peter preached baptism in the name of JESUS CHRIST!
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Philip baptized in the NAME of the Lord JESUS.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Jesus commanded baptism in "THE NAME" of the father, of the son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Peter preached baptism in the name of JESUS CHRIST!
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Philip baptized in the NAME of the Lord JESUS.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
c.moore
New member
here is the link what Justachristian gave me ,and I would like to let other see the false teaching, and false understandings in this lesson.
If I am wrong please be free to correct me because Im don`t want to spread false teaching and a man made doctrine.
With all my getting I want understanding.Prov 4:7
Baptism In The Teaching Of Peter
INTRODUCTION
1. In our first lesson we saw where Peter included baptism as part of
his apostolic preaching...
a. He commanded the people at Pentecost to be baptized - Ac 2:36-38
b. He commanded the household of Cornelius to be baptized - Ac 10:
47-48
2. From the accounts in Acts, we saw that for Peter baptism was...
a. For the remission of sins - Ac 2:38
b. An act that involved water - Ac 10:47
3. But one might properly ask: was Peter teaching...
a. That baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, and therefore
necessary for salvation?
b. That one is saved by baptism in water?
4. Fortunately, we do not have wonder, for in his first epistle Peter
wrote...
"There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the
removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
(1 Pe 3:21)
[As stated in the KJV, "...baptism doth also NOW save us"! But while
teaching that baptism saves us, Peter is careful to explain in what
way. Let's take a closer look at the text to see what Peter is saying
about baptism...]
I. BAPTISM IS AN "ANTITYPE"
A. DEFINING "ANTITYPE"...
1. The Greek word is antitupon {an-teet'-oo-pon}, which means "a
thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a
type"
2. So you have two things that some how relate or correspond to
each other; one is a type, the other is the antitype
B. HOW BAPTISM IS AN ANTITYPE...
1. In the text, the waters of the flood are the "type", and the
waters of baptism are the "antitype" - 1 Pe 3:20-21
2. In his commentary, Albert Barnes says...
a. "The meaning here is, that baptism corresponded to, or had
a resemblance to, the water by which Noah was saved; or
that there was a use of water in the one case which
corresponded in some respects to the water that was used in
the other; to wit, in effecting salvation." (Commentary on
1st Peter)
b. "The apostle does not say that it corresponded in all
respects; in respect, e.g., to quantity, or to the manner
of the application, or to the efficacy; but there is a
sense in which water performs an important part in our
salvation, as it did in his." (ibid.)
3. Thus Peter was comparing Noah's salvation with our own...
a. Remember that Noah was saved by:
1) Grace - Gen 6:8
2) Faith - He 11:7
3) Water - 1 Pe 3:20
-- Grace was God's part, faith was Noah's part; water was
simply an element by which God carried out His plan to
save Noah
b. So we are saved by:
1) Grace - Ep 2:5
2) Faith - Ep 2:8
3) Water - 1 Pe 3:21
-- Grace is God's part, faith is our part; baptism is
simply an element by which God carries out His plan to
save us through the blood of Christ
[Because baptism in water is somehow related to our salvation, Peter
could speak of it as an antitype that saves us, just as Noah and his
family were "saved through water"!
How can this be? Aren't we saved by the blood of Jesus? Of course!
The answer can be seen as we continue to note what Peter taught
concerning baptism...]
II. BAPTISM SAVES THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
A. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS NOT FOUND IN THE "WATER"...
1. As Peter makes clear when he says "not the removal of the
filth of the flesh"
2. For indeed it is only through the blood of Jesus Christ one
can be saved
a. We are justified through His blood - Ro 5:9
b. We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of
sins - Ep 1:7
3. To this Peter would definitely agree - 1 Pe 1:18-19
B. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE RESURRECTION OF
CHRIST...
1. If He had not been raised, we would still be in our sins
a. As Paul declares in 1 Co 15:17
b. Without His resurrection, His death would have been
meaningless
2. But because Jesus was raised from the dead...
a. Those baptized into His death can rise to walk in newness
of life - Ro 6:4
b. Those united together in the likeness of His death (i.e.,
baptism) can share in the power of His resurrection
- Ro 6:5
3. In other words, the same power of God that raised Jesus from
the dead is what saves us in baptism so we can be "made alive"
- cf. Co 2:12-13
[By God's saving grace and resurrecting power, then, baptism can indeed
save us! Not because of any cleansing power in the water, but because
of what GOD is doing at that moment through the blood of Jesus and the
regeneration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Ti 3:4-5).
But notice finally, how Peter teaches that baptism saves because...]
III. BAPTISM IS AN APPEAL FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE
A. "THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE" (NKJV)
1. A difficult phrase, but it most likely means "an appeal to God
for a clear conscience"
2. This is supported by the following translations:
a. "the craving for a conscience right with God" (Goodspeed)
b. "the prayer for a clean conscience before God" (Moffat)
c. "the request unto God for a good conscience" (Rotherham)
d. "an appeal to God for a clear conscience" (RSV)
e. "an appeal to God for a good conscience" (NASV)
-- Thus one is baptized because they desire a clear conscience
(i.e., to have their sins forgiven)
B. THIS COINCIDES WITH THE EVIDENT PURPOSE OF BAPTISM...
1. In apostolic preaching, baptized was commanded:
a. "For the remission of sins" - Ac 2:38
b. To have one's sins "washed away" - cf. Ac 22:16
2. In N.T. times people who realized they were sinners were
anxious to be baptized as soon as possible - cf. Ac 8:35-38
3. Therefore one is baptized...
a. To have a good conscience before God; indeed, to have their
conscience "purged" by the blood of Christ - cf. He 9:14
b. To have their sins washed away by blood of Jesus and so
they can rise to a new life through the same power of God
that raised Jesus from the dead!
CONCLUSION
1. Does baptism save us?
a. Many say "Baptism does NOT save us!"
b. But Peter clearly taught "...baptism doth also NOW save us" (KJV)
2. How does baptism save us? According to Peter...
a. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
b. As an appeal for a good conscience!
3. This helps us to understand...
a. Why he commanded it for the remission of sins - Ac 2:38
b. Why he commanded it even for those who had in some sense received
the Spirit - Ac 10:47-48
Yes, through the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead, working
in conjunction with our faith in the blood of Jesus, baptism does
indeed save those who are making an appeal for a clear conscience!
Is baptism essential to salvation? Let the preaching and teaching of
Christ's apostles provide the answer! I believe that when we do, we
can see why one should takes Jesus' own words with no equivocation:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does
not believe will be condemned." - Mk 16:16
It is my prayer that if you have not yet properly responded to the Word
of the Lord, you will heed the same words given to Paul:
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Ac 22:16
Have you made an appeal to God for a good conscience by being baptized
into Christ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from baptism teaching
"There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the
removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
(1 Pe 3:21)
Quote c.moore
I see that we can be now saved in a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus.
What happen to the baptism in this statement?
Quote from baptism teaching
A. DEFINING "ANTITYPE"...
1. The Greek word is antitupon {an-teet'-oo-pon}, which means "a
thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a
type"
2. So you have two things that some how relate or correspond to
each other; one is a type, the other is the antitype
Quote c.moore
the webster dictionary says:type means :a person thing or event regarded as SYBOLIC oe one prefigure
Form is a outward appearance. Not from the inside,but the shape shown from the outside.
Quote from baptism teaching
How can this be? Aren't we saved by the blood of Jesus? Of course!
Quote c.moore
Look at this sentence saying the blood of Jesus saved making saved past sence , because the blood of Jesus has saved you , not the water baptism.
This look that this teaching is contridicting itself.
Let look how this teaching contridict itself.
Quote from baptism teaching
II. BAPTISM SAVES THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
A. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS NOT FOUND IN THE "WATER"...
1. As Peter makes clear when he says "not the removal of the
filth of the flesh"
2. For indeed it is only through the blood of Jesus Christ one
Quote c.moore
Look at the ONLY throught the blood not water baptism that saves ONLY, That why faith saves only is the key to heaven and as soon as you ask the blood to wash you by confession of your sins you are saved NOW right away before any baptism, and even this teaching said this in the above quote.
It even said we are just instanly because of the blood ROM 5:9.
3. To this Peter would definitely agree - 1 Pe 1:18-19
Quote from baptism teaching
! Not because of any cleansing power in the water, but because
of what GOD is doing at that moment through the blood of Jesus and the
regeneration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Ti 3:4-5).
Quote c.moore
This is why we need our conscience changed into a good conscience according to Rom 12:2.
this is a process and it continue even after any water baptism, so no way can the water change you, only the free grace of GOd will help you, that why Jesus said I go go that the conforter my come and help you freely.
Quote from baptism teaching
2. How does baptism save us? According to Peter...
a. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
b. As an appeal for a good conscience!
Quote c.moore
Jesus died 2000 years ago and is already risen so that must mean I am already just and righteous because I believe and I made my mind up to follow Jesus Christ with my whole heart, and soul, and mind , that will train me to have a good conscience, after believing in the resurrection.
Quote from baptism teaching
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Ac 22:16
Quote c.moore
We just studyed that the water does not clean the flesh, only the blood of Jesus wash away our sins, and here is saying by calling on the Lord jesus .
So again the calling is that which does the work or the confession and faith , which come by the Word of God not baptism come faith.Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It does not says faith cometh by baptism.
This is what I got out of this study which I disagree with because it even saying the Blood of Jesus is that what saves so I have to do no works to be save it is really a gift and if I have to earn my salvation or do something for my salvation it is no more a gift.
peace
If I am wrong please be free to correct me because Im don`t want to spread false teaching and a man made doctrine.
With all my getting I want understanding.Prov 4:7
Baptism In The Teaching Of Peter
INTRODUCTION
1. In our first lesson we saw where Peter included baptism as part of
his apostolic preaching...
a. He commanded the people at Pentecost to be baptized - Ac 2:36-38
b. He commanded the household of Cornelius to be baptized - Ac 10:
47-48
2. From the accounts in Acts, we saw that for Peter baptism was...
a. For the remission of sins - Ac 2:38
b. An act that involved water - Ac 10:47
3. But one might properly ask: was Peter teaching...
a. That baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, and therefore
necessary for salvation?
b. That one is saved by baptism in water?
4. Fortunately, we do not have wonder, for in his first epistle Peter
wrote...
"There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the
removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
(1 Pe 3:21)
[As stated in the KJV, "...baptism doth also NOW save us"! But while
teaching that baptism saves us, Peter is careful to explain in what
way. Let's take a closer look at the text to see what Peter is saying
about baptism...]
I. BAPTISM IS AN "ANTITYPE"
A. DEFINING "ANTITYPE"...
1. The Greek word is antitupon {an-teet'-oo-pon}, which means "a
thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a
type"
2. So you have two things that some how relate or correspond to
each other; one is a type, the other is the antitype
B. HOW BAPTISM IS AN ANTITYPE...
1. In the text, the waters of the flood are the "type", and the
waters of baptism are the "antitype" - 1 Pe 3:20-21
2. In his commentary, Albert Barnes says...
a. "The meaning here is, that baptism corresponded to, or had
a resemblance to, the water by which Noah was saved; or
that there was a use of water in the one case which
corresponded in some respects to the water that was used in
the other; to wit, in effecting salvation." (Commentary on
1st Peter)
b. "The apostle does not say that it corresponded in all
respects; in respect, e.g., to quantity, or to the manner
of the application, or to the efficacy; but there is a
sense in which water performs an important part in our
salvation, as it did in his." (ibid.)
3. Thus Peter was comparing Noah's salvation with our own...
a. Remember that Noah was saved by:
1) Grace - Gen 6:8
2) Faith - He 11:7
3) Water - 1 Pe 3:20
-- Grace was God's part, faith was Noah's part; water was
simply an element by which God carried out His plan to
save Noah
b. So we are saved by:
1) Grace - Ep 2:5
2) Faith - Ep 2:8
3) Water - 1 Pe 3:21
-- Grace is God's part, faith is our part; baptism is
simply an element by which God carries out His plan to
save us through the blood of Christ
[Because baptism in water is somehow related to our salvation, Peter
could speak of it as an antitype that saves us, just as Noah and his
family were "saved through water"!
How can this be? Aren't we saved by the blood of Jesus? Of course!
The answer can be seen as we continue to note what Peter taught
concerning baptism...]
II. BAPTISM SAVES THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
A. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS NOT FOUND IN THE "WATER"...
1. As Peter makes clear when he says "not the removal of the
filth of the flesh"
2. For indeed it is only through the blood of Jesus Christ one
can be saved
a. We are justified through His blood - Ro 5:9
b. We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of
sins - Ep 1:7
3. To this Peter would definitely agree - 1 Pe 1:18-19
B. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE RESURRECTION OF
CHRIST...
1. If He had not been raised, we would still be in our sins
a. As Paul declares in 1 Co 15:17
b. Without His resurrection, His death would have been
meaningless
2. But because Jesus was raised from the dead...
a. Those baptized into His death can rise to walk in newness
of life - Ro 6:4
b. Those united together in the likeness of His death (i.e.,
baptism) can share in the power of His resurrection
- Ro 6:5
3. In other words, the same power of God that raised Jesus from
the dead is what saves us in baptism so we can be "made alive"
- cf. Co 2:12-13
[By God's saving grace and resurrecting power, then, baptism can indeed
save us! Not because of any cleansing power in the water, but because
of what GOD is doing at that moment through the blood of Jesus and the
regeneration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Ti 3:4-5).
But notice finally, how Peter teaches that baptism saves because...]
III. BAPTISM IS AN APPEAL FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE
A. "THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE" (NKJV)
1. A difficult phrase, but it most likely means "an appeal to God
for a clear conscience"
2. This is supported by the following translations:
a. "the craving for a conscience right with God" (Goodspeed)
b. "the prayer for a clean conscience before God" (Moffat)
c. "the request unto God for a good conscience" (Rotherham)
d. "an appeal to God for a clear conscience" (RSV)
e. "an appeal to God for a good conscience" (NASV)
-- Thus one is baptized because they desire a clear conscience
(i.e., to have their sins forgiven)
B. THIS COINCIDES WITH THE EVIDENT PURPOSE OF BAPTISM...
1. In apostolic preaching, baptized was commanded:
a. "For the remission of sins" - Ac 2:38
b. To have one's sins "washed away" - cf. Ac 22:16
2. In N.T. times people who realized they were sinners were
anxious to be baptized as soon as possible - cf. Ac 8:35-38
3. Therefore one is baptized...
a. To have a good conscience before God; indeed, to have their
conscience "purged" by the blood of Christ - cf. He 9:14
b. To have their sins washed away by blood of Jesus and so
they can rise to a new life through the same power of God
that raised Jesus from the dead!
CONCLUSION
1. Does baptism save us?
a. Many say "Baptism does NOT save us!"
b. But Peter clearly taught "...baptism doth also NOW save us" (KJV)
2. How does baptism save us? According to Peter...
a. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
b. As an appeal for a good conscience!
3. This helps us to understand...
a. Why he commanded it for the remission of sins - Ac 2:38
b. Why he commanded it even for those who had in some sense received
the Spirit - Ac 10:47-48
Yes, through the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead, working
in conjunction with our faith in the blood of Jesus, baptism does
indeed save those who are making an appeal for a clear conscience!
Is baptism essential to salvation? Let the preaching and teaching of
Christ's apostles provide the answer! I believe that when we do, we
can see why one should takes Jesus' own words with no equivocation:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does
not believe will be condemned." - Mk 16:16
It is my prayer that if you have not yet properly responded to the Word
of the Lord, you will heed the same words given to Paul:
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Ac 22:16
Have you made an appeal to God for a good conscience by being baptized
into Christ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from baptism teaching
"There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the
removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
(1 Pe 3:21)
Quote c.moore
I see that we can be now saved in a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus.
What happen to the baptism in this statement?
Quote from baptism teaching
A. DEFINING "ANTITYPE"...
1. The Greek word is antitupon {an-teet'-oo-pon}, which means "a
thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a
type"
2. So you have two things that some how relate or correspond to
each other; one is a type, the other is the antitype
Quote c.moore
the webster dictionary says:type means :a person thing or event regarded as SYBOLIC oe one prefigure
Form is a outward appearance. Not from the inside,but the shape shown from the outside.
Quote from baptism teaching
How can this be? Aren't we saved by the blood of Jesus? Of course!
Quote c.moore
Look at this sentence saying the blood of Jesus saved making saved past sence , because the blood of Jesus has saved you , not the water baptism.
This look that this teaching is contridicting itself.
Let look how this teaching contridict itself.
Quote from baptism teaching
II. BAPTISM SAVES THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
A. SALVATION IN BAPTISM IS NOT FOUND IN THE "WATER"...
1. As Peter makes clear when he says "not the removal of the
filth of the flesh"
2. For indeed it is only through the blood of Jesus Christ one
Quote c.moore
Look at the ONLY throught the blood not water baptism that saves ONLY, That why faith saves only is the key to heaven and as soon as you ask the blood to wash you by confession of your sins you are saved NOW right away before any baptism, and even this teaching said this in the above quote.
It even said we are just instanly because of the blood ROM 5:9.
3. To this Peter would definitely agree - 1 Pe 1:18-19
Quote from baptism teaching
! Not because of any cleansing power in the water, but because
of what GOD is doing at that moment through the blood of Jesus and the
regeneration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Ti 3:4-5).
Quote c.moore
This is why we need our conscience changed into a good conscience according to Rom 12:2.
this is a process and it continue even after any water baptism, so no way can the water change you, only the free grace of GOd will help you, that why Jesus said I go go that the conforter my come and help you freely.
Quote from baptism teaching
2. How does baptism save us? According to Peter...
a. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
b. As an appeal for a good conscience!
Quote c.moore
Jesus died 2000 years ago and is already risen so that must mean I am already just and righteous because I believe and I made my mind up to follow Jesus Christ with my whole heart, and soul, and mind , that will train me to have a good conscience, after believing in the resurrection.
Quote from baptism teaching
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Ac 22:16
Quote c.moore
We just studyed that the water does not clean the flesh, only the blood of Jesus wash away our sins, and here is saying by calling on the Lord jesus .
So again the calling is that which does the work or the confession and faith , which come by the Word of God not baptism come faith.Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It does not says faith cometh by baptism.
This is what I got out of this study which I disagree with because it even saying the Blood of Jesus is that what saves so I have to do no works to be save it is really a gift and if I have to earn my salvation or do something for my salvation it is no more a gift.
peace
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As has been correctly pointed out,in the present dispensation there is but one baptism:
"One Lord,one faith,one baptism..."(Eph.4:5).
To say that this "one baptism" is in reference to "water baptism" to the exclusion of the "Spiritual baptism" is a gigantic blunder.
"For by ONE SPIRIT were we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
Are we supposed to believe that this verse and all its implications are no longer in order?
Of course not!
The teaching of Paul from FIRST TO LAST is centered in our new position "IN CHRIST".
And as Scripture states,we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit--not a rite of water baptism.
It is by the Holy Spirit that we are baptized into Jesus Christ,and it is by the same operation of God that we are baptized into His death:
"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?"(Ro.6:3).
NOWHERE in Scripture does it ever say that the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ by a rite of "water baptism",but it does say that we are baptized into Christ BY THE SPIRIT.
Those of us who have been baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit have also been baptized into His death by the Spirit alsr are we suppose to believe that Paul´s words at Ephesians 4 is WRONG,and there are TWO BAPTISMS?One to baptize us into Jesus Christ (the Spirit baptism) and another to baptize us into His death (water baptism).
No,if we believe Scripture we believe in ONE BAPTISM in the present dispensation;and as it was a Spiritual baptism into Jesus Christ,it is also the Spirit that baptizes us into His death.
To teach that it is the rite of "water baptism" is the ONE BAPTISM of Ephesians4 is to deny the truth that we are baptized into Jesus Christ BY THE SPIRIT.
And those that would state that the ONE BAPTISM of Eph.4 refers to a rite of "water baptism" to the exclusion of the Spiritual baptism by which the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ betrays an ignorance of Spiritual truths:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God;for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).
I have never seen such blindness in Spiritual discernment as the absurd idea that the one baptism of Eph.4 refers to the rite of "water baptism" to the exclusion of the Spirit baptism by which all believers are baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ.
In His grace,--Jerry
"One Lord,one faith,one baptism..."(Eph.4:5).
To say that this "one baptism" is in reference to "water baptism" to the exclusion of the "Spiritual baptism" is a gigantic blunder.
"For by ONE SPIRIT were we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
Are we supposed to believe that this verse and all its implications are no longer in order?
Of course not!
The teaching of Paul from FIRST TO LAST is centered in our new position "IN CHRIST".
And as Scripture states,we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit--not a rite of water baptism.
It is by the Holy Spirit that we are baptized into Jesus Christ,and it is by the same operation of God that we are baptized into His death:
"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?"(Ro.6:3).
NOWHERE in Scripture does it ever say that the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ by a rite of "water baptism",but it does say that we are baptized into Christ BY THE SPIRIT.
Those of us who have been baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit have also been baptized into His death by the Spirit als
r are we suppose to believe that Paul´s words at Ephesians 4 is WRONG,and there are TWO BAPTISMS?One to baptize us into Jesus Christ (the Spirit baptism) and another to baptize us into His death (water baptism).No,if we believe Scripture we believe in ONE BAPTISM in the present dispensation;and as it was a Spiritual baptism into Jesus Christ,it is also the Spirit that baptizes us into His death.
To teach that it is the rite of "water baptism" is the ONE BAPTISM of Ephesians4 is to deny the truth that we are baptized into Jesus Christ BY THE SPIRIT.
And those that would state that the ONE BAPTISM of Eph.4 refers to a rite of "water baptism" to the exclusion of the Spiritual baptism by which the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ betrays an ignorance of Spiritual truths:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God;for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).
I have never seen such blindness in Spiritual discernment as the absurd idea that the one baptism of Eph.4 refers to the rite of "water baptism" to the exclusion of the Spirit baptism by which all believers are baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ.
In His grace,--Jerry
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agape
New member
Hmmm...still debating whether or not water baptism is necessary for salvation. Hardly, since it does not tell us so in the scriptures. I say let's get out of the OT and into the NT. Let's get out of water baptism of the OT and get into spirit baptism with the NT. To be honest, if water baptism was a requirement for salvation, I would think the Apostle Paul would have made note of it....I mean I would think he would have taught it throughout the Epistles. Don't you?...especially to the Gentiles who didn't have a clue.
"WATER" does NOT SAVE anyone except if your in an ark and it keeps you afloat and from drowning... or to prevent dehydration and literally dying of thirst.
The ONLY thing that saves anyone is first God's grace delivered to us by His Only begotten...oops...only unique Son...lol...same thing, confessing the Lord Jesus Christ, believing in one's heart that God raised Him from the dead and receiving God's gift of holy spirit...eternal life.
It does not matter whether you dip yourself a million times in the physical, liquid element called water or not...it won't save your you, your soul at all. If it did, why Jesus Christ?
Also, water baptism + spirit baptism does not = salvation. Why? Because the Bible does NOT TELL US SO. Man-made doctrines might, but not God nor His Son Jesus Christ.
"WATER" does NOT SAVE anyone except if your in an ark and it keeps you afloat and from drowning... or to prevent dehydration and literally dying of thirst.
The ONLY thing that saves anyone is first God's grace delivered to us by His Only begotten...oops...only unique Son...lol...same thing, confessing the Lord Jesus Christ, believing in one's heart that God raised Him from the dead and receiving God's gift of holy spirit...eternal life.
It does not matter whether you dip yourself a million times in the physical, liquid element called water or not...it won't save your you, your soul at all. If it did, why Jesus Christ?
Also, water baptism + spirit baptism does not = salvation. Why? Because the Bible does NOT TELL US SO. Man-made doctrines might, but not God nor His Son Jesus Christ.
Kevin
New member
Jerry,
Do you not understand that we recieve the gift Holy Spirit when we are baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38)?
Acts 2:38
38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
So, as you said, we are baptized into Christ by one Spirit, which is recieved upon being baptized in the name of the Lord. Guess what? Being baptized in the name of the Lord uses water!
Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit Just as we have?
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
One baptism, not two. That one baptismincludes water, and you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's what the apostles practiced.
Do you not understand that we recieve the gift Holy Spirit when we are baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38)?
Acts 2:38
38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
So, as you said, we are baptized into Christ by one Spirit, which is recieved upon being baptized in the name of the Lord. Guess what? Being baptized in the name of the Lord uses water!
Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit Just as we have?
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
One baptism, not two. That one baptismincludes water, and you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's what the apostles practiced.
Kevin
New member
C.Moore,
By doing what, C.Moore? What now saves us?
It's right underneath that massive plank of pride in your eye. Look at the beginning of that verse. It's still there... it never went away. Your pride will not allow you to acknowledge it. Baptism now saves you. Do you now know that the text within the parenthesis is referring to baptism?! Remove the plank!
_______ saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
What's the action?
This is another example of you not being able to hand what a verse is saying therefore you pick out certain parts of the verse while totally ignoring other crucial parts.
You did the same thing in Mark 16:16 which says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved, those who don't believe will be condemned.
Rather than take that verse for exactly what it says, you can't handle, and therefore only pay attention to the part of the verse that deals with condemnation. Indeed, why do you look for the requirements of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with condemnation? Reeeeeal logical. Heaven forbid that you look at the part of the verse that deals with salvation: BELIEF AND BAPTISM. You keep trying to put baptism after salvation when Jesus put baptism before salvation.
Thats one MASSIVE plank in you eye, and I hope it's removed someday so that you can clearly read what it written before you.
By doing what, C.Moore? What now saves us?
It's right underneath that massive plank of pride in your eye. Look at the beginning of that verse. It's still there... it never went away. Your pride will not allow you to acknowledge it. Baptism now saves you. Do you now know that the text within the parenthesis is referring to baptism?! Remove the plank!
_______ saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
What's the action?
This is another example of you not being able to hand what a verse is saying therefore you pick out certain parts of the verse while totally ignoring other crucial parts.
You did the same thing in Mark 16:16 which says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved, those who don't believe will be condemned.
Rather than take that verse for exactly what it says, you can't handle, and therefore only pay attention to the part of the verse that deals with condemnation. Indeed, why do you look for the requirements of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with condemnation? Reeeeeal logical. Heaven forbid that you look at the part of the verse that deals with salvation: BELIEF AND BAPTISM. You keep trying to put baptism after salvation when Jesus put baptism before salvation.
Thats one MASSIVE plank in you eye, and I hope it's removed someday so that you can clearly read what it written before you.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Kevin,
First of all,the "baptism of repentance",which was a rite of "water baptism",was EXPRESSLY contrasted with the baptism of the Spirit.They are NOT the same baptism,if you will only believe the words of John:
"I,indeed,baptize you with water unto repentance,but He Who cometh after me...shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit,and with fire"(Mt.3:11).
And from the following episode we can see that they are indeed two different baptisms:
"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on them who heard the word...then answered Peter,Can any man forbid water,that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?"(Acts10:44,47).
The Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.Therefore,if we would just use our common sense we can see that the rite of water baptism had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.
In His grace,--Jerry
First of all,the "baptism of repentance",which was a rite of "water baptism",was EXPRESSLY contrasted with the baptism of the Spirit.They are NOT the same baptism,if you will only believe the words of John:
"I,indeed,baptize you with water unto repentance,but He Who cometh after me...shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit,and with fire"(Mt.3:11).
And from the following episode we can see that they are indeed two different baptisms:
"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on them who heard the word...then answered Peter,Can any man forbid water,that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?"(Acts10:44,47).
The Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.Therefore,if we would just use our common sense we can see that the rite of water baptism had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.
In His grace,--Jerry
c.moore
New member
Good teaching Jerry:up:
I pray that Kevin see`s some how that thereis a spirtual baptism that really count before God and that is the one that get you into heaven gates, but some how Kevin is believing to much on the natural and can`t see the spiritual part of the new birth and like the bible says :1Co:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I only can see that this is the reason that he is stuck on the fleshly baptism, and the outward water baptism.
Keep up your good faith
God Bless you
c.moore
New member
hello Kevin
Hereis something I think you should explain about what scripture is water baptism and what scripture are spiritual baptism.
I know you think the only one baptism is water baptism but can you prove that spritual baptism is not bible and is not in the bible, and that we can`t be spritual baptized without being first water baptized?
here the link if you have any answers.
www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2102
An I forgot to give you that link about leg growing and body parts growing on, because of you unbelief of healing has died out, like God has a new name called I WAS Not I AM.
here is the linkwww.mindfusion.net/clientimg/billys...testimonies.htm
Let God bless you
Hereis something I think you should explain about what scripture is water baptism and what scripture are spiritual baptism.
I know you think the only one baptism is water baptism but can you prove that spritual baptism is not bible and is not in the bible, and that we can`t be spritual baptized without being first water baptized?
here the link if you have any answers.
www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2102
An I forgot to give you that link about leg growing and body parts growing on, because of you unbelief of healing has died out, like God has a new name called I WAS Not I AM.
here is the linkwww.mindfusion.net/clientimg/billys...testimonies.htm
Let God bless you
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Kevin
New member
Jerry,
You are under the impression that the Gentiles were saved by faith alone because they recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before being baptized. Right? Well, let's look at the verses:
Acts 10:44-48
44) While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45) And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46) For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,"
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
First, let's focus on why the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles before baptism. Up until Jesus, God only favored the Jews. They, and they alone, were His chosen people. The Gentiles were considered by Jews as inferior.
Even as Peter preached the word to the Gentiles, the Jews still considered themselves to be better. Well, as an undeniable sign from God that the Gentiles were also in God's favor, not just the Jews, God poured out the Holy Spirit onto the Gentiles, and they began to speak in tongues and magnify God (verse46), right in front of the Jews. They couldn't deny it.
Looking at verse 45, we see that the Jews who came with Peter were "astonsihed" that God had poured out the Holy Spirit onto the Gentiles. This is solid evidence that the Jews didn't realize that God also had a covenant with the Gentiles also, or they wouldn't have been astonished? As a result of this undeniable sign from God, Peter turned to the Jews and answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?". Peter then commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is what freed them from sin, not the pouring of the Holy Spirit, which gave them the ability to speak in tongues (a sign). If they were already saved, why did Peter command them to be baptized in water? Because being baptized in the name of the Lord is what baptizes you into Jesus's death, putting away your old man of sin, thus freeing you from sin. He didn't suggest it, he commanded it. There's a reason for that.
Also, if one believes that the falling of the Holy Spirit, which gave them the ability to speak in tongues, is what saved the Gentiles, then, to be consistent, one must also say that the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 were saved also.
In Numbers 11:25, the Holy Spirit fell upon some men there, which gave them the ability to prophecy. So what we have here is two places in the Bible where God poured out the Holy Spirit, which gave the recipients the ability to do miraculous things. The people in Acts spoke in tongues... the people in Numbers prophecied. Again, if that's what saved the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, then to be consistent, that's what also saved the people in Numbers 11:25, because the same thing happened to each party. The problem is, that would imply that salvation was possible before the death of Christ. One would then have to explain why Jesus came and died for us if salvation was already available.
Also, this is not the baptism that Jesus commanded in the great commission (Matt.28:19-20). He commaned the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The apostles were to do this. The falling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 was done so by God and His choosing. Indeed this is not the ONE baptism commanded by Jesus.
The ONE baptism was carried out throughout the Bible when people were baptized in the name of the Lord, which uses water.
You are under the impression that the Gentiles were saved by faith alone because they recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before being baptized. Right? Well, let's look at the verses:
Acts 10:44-48
44) While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45) And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46) For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,"
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
First, let's focus on why the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles before baptism. Up until Jesus, God only favored the Jews. They, and they alone, were His chosen people. The Gentiles were considered by Jews as inferior.
Even as Peter preached the word to the Gentiles, the Jews still considered themselves to be better. Well, as an undeniable sign from God that the Gentiles were also in God's favor, not just the Jews, God poured out the Holy Spirit onto the Gentiles, and they began to speak in tongues and magnify God (verse46), right in front of the Jews. They couldn't deny it.
Looking at verse 45, we see that the Jews who came with Peter were "astonsihed" that God had poured out the Holy Spirit onto the Gentiles. This is solid evidence that the Jews didn't realize that God also had a covenant with the Gentiles also, or they wouldn't have been astonished? As a result of this undeniable sign from God, Peter turned to the Jews and answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?". Peter then commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is what freed them from sin, not the pouring of the Holy Spirit, which gave them the ability to speak in tongues (a sign). If they were already saved, why did Peter command them to be baptized in water? Because being baptized in the name of the Lord is what baptizes you into Jesus's death, putting away your old man of sin, thus freeing you from sin. He didn't suggest it, he commanded it. There's a reason for that.
Also, if one believes that the falling of the Holy Spirit, which gave them the ability to speak in tongues, is what saved the Gentiles, then, to be consistent, one must also say that the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 were saved also.
In Numbers 11:25, the Holy Spirit fell upon some men there, which gave them the ability to prophecy. So what we have here is two places in the Bible where God poured out the Holy Spirit, which gave the recipients the ability to do miraculous things. The people in Acts spoke in tongues... the people in Numbers prophecied. Again, if that's what saved the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, then to be consistent, that's what also saved the people in Numbers 11:25, because the same thing happened to each party. The problem is, that would imply that salvation was possible before the death of Christ. One would then have to explain why Jesus came and died for us if salvation was already available.
Also, this is not the baptism that Jesus commanded in the great commission (Matt.28:19-20). He commaned the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The apostles were to do this. The falling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 was done so by God and His choosing. Indeed this is not the ONE baptism commanded by Jesus.
The ONE baptism was carried out throughout the Bible when people were baptized in the name of the Lord, which uses water.
Kevin
New member
C.Moore,
I've already answered how you can tell if scripture is talking about water baptism vs. spirit baptism. And, incidentally, I don't want to get back into the habit of posting on the same subject in multiple threads. This thread, and the "Conclusion on baptism" thread is enough for me.
Sorry. Testimonials won't convince me. There are too many false teachers in the world, and we are told to test the spirits. If you can do it, show me. Travel expenses will be reimburrsed. If you can show me, praise God, I'll be happy to be corrected. I mean that.
I've already answered how you can tell if scripture is talking about water baptism vs. spirit baptism. And, incidentally, I don't want to get back into the habit of posting on the same subject in multiple threads. This thread, and the "Conclusion on baptism" thread is enough for me.
Sorry. Testimonials won't convince me. There are too many false teachers in the world, and we are told to test the spirits. If you can do it, show me. Travel expenses will be reimburrsed. If you can show me, praise God, I'll be happy to be corrected. I mean that.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Kevin,
You say,"The problem is,that would imply that salvation was possible before the death of Christ."
Do you mean to tell me that no one was saved before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ?
What about Enoch,who "was translated that he should not see death,and was not found,because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said:
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead,have ye not read,that which was spoken unto you by God,saying,I am the God of Abraham,and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob?God is not the God of the dead,but of the living"(Mt.22:31,32).
Do you not think that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob were saved before the death of the Lord Jesus?At the transfiguration some of the Apostles saw with their own eyes Moses and Elijah" speaking with the Lord (Mt.17:3).
Do you not think that Moses and Elijah were saved?
Anyway,back to the original argument.
I do not believe that it would be possible for the Holy Spirit to fall on Cornelius and his household if they remained in their sinful and unrighteous condition:
"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you"(Isa.59:1).
Besides,Scripture states explicily that it was the "words" that would save Cornelius and his household.No mention whatsoever is made that the rite of water baptism had any saving value at all:
"And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house,who stood and said unto him,Send men to Joppa,and call for Simon,whose surname is Peter,who shall TELL THEE WORDS,BY WHICH THOU AND ALL THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED"(Acts11:13,14).
So according to Scripture it was by believing the "words" sent from God that saved Cornelius and his household:
"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word"(Acts10:44).
So it is obvious that God sent the word to them and they were saved indeed before they were water baptized.
In His grace,--Jerry
You say,"The problem is,that would imply that salvation was possible before the death of Christ."
Do you mean to tell me that no one was saved before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ?
What about Enoch,who "was translated that he should not see death,and was not found,because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said:
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead,have ye not read,that which was spoken unto you by God,saying,I am the God of Abraham,and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob?God is not the God of the dead,but of the living"(Mt.22:31,32).
Do you not think that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob were saved before the death of the Lord Jesus?At the transfiguration some of the Apostles saw with their own eyes Moses and Elijah" speaking with the Lord (Mt.17:3).
Do you not think that Moses and Elijah were saved?
Anyway,back to the original argument.
I do not believe that it would be possible for the Holy Spirit to fall on Cornelius and his household if they remained in their sinful and unrighteous condition:
"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you"(Isa.59:1).
Besides,Scripture states explicily that it was the "words" that would save Cornelius and his household.No mention whatsoever is made that the rite of water baptism had any saving value at all:
"And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house,who stood and said unto him,Send men to Joppa,and call for Simon,whose surname is Peter,who shall TELL THEE WORDS,BY WHICH THOU AND ALL THY HOUSE SHALL BE SAVED"(Acts11:13,14).
So according to Scripture it was by believing the "words" sent from God that saved Cornelius and his household:
"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word"(Acts10:44).
So it is obvious that God sent the word to them and they were saved indeed before they were water baptized.
In His grace,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
In The Name Of.....
In The Name Of.....
There has never been a special formula for immersing a person. "In the name of" simply means "by the authority of". We are immersed by the authority of Christ. He authorized the immersion be done by the authority of Diety (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He is showing that immersion is never to be considered something that came from man but from Diety. One is placed under the water and raised up again. We die to sin, are buried in the watery grave and are raised to walk in a new life. The "old man of sin" remains in the grave of immersion. We can not turn back to him or use him again. Baptism is so wonderful in picturing the new birth in Jesus Christ -- being born of the water and the Spirit.
JustAChristian
In The Name Of.....
There has never been a special formula for immersing a person. "In the name of" simply means "by the authority of". We are immersed by the authority of Christ. He authorized the immersion be done by the authority of Diety (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He is showing that immersion is never to be considered something that came from man but from Diety. One is placed under the water and raised up again. We die to sin, are buried in the watery grave and are raised to walk in a new life. The "old man of sin" remains in the grave of immersion. We can not turn back to him or use him again. Baptism is so wonderful in picturing the new birth in Jesus Christ -- being born of the water and the Spirit.
JustAChristian
JustAChristian
New member
c.moore and Jerry, You just don't get it!
c.moore and Jerry, You just don't get it!
c.moore,
Here is some more to chew on. Its from a discussion with an unbeliever like you who trusted in his Faith Only and not the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. Its good material so savor it greatly!
It is arresting that you should say, and I quote, "The ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us..." when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).
You said that in baptism we "pledge to God our lives." The problem with that statement is that the bible does not say that. It says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)
The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)
At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.
Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.
When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL." (Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2)
People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense sre not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!
JustAChristian
c.moore and Jerry, You just don't get it!
c.moore,
Here is some more to chew on. Its from a discussion with an unbeliever like you who trusted in his Faith Only and not the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. Its good material so savor it greatly!
It is arresting that you should say, and I quote, "The ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us..." when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).
You said that in baptism we "pledge to God our lives." The problem with that statement is that the bible does not say that. It says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)
The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)
At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.
Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.
When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL." (Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2)
People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense sre not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!
JustAChristian
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
You are soooooooo correct when you say that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at this time. 'For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ'Gal.3:27).
According to Scripture,"by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
Here,it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the baptism into Christ.
Never even ONCE is the rite of "water baptism" said to baptize anyone into Christ.NOT ONCE.
ALL the evidence points to the fact that it is a Spiritual baptism that baptizes us into the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no evidence whatsoever that ties a rite of water baptism to our baptism into Christ.
By one Spirit are we baptized into Jesus Christ,and "as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:4)
Are we suppose to believe that we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ but "water baptized" into His death?
No,everything connected with our identification with His death and resurrection is through the Holy Spirit:
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
"Buried with Him in baptism,in which also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God,Who has raised Him from the dead"(Col.11,12).
CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS--"Circumcision is that of the heart,IN THE SPIRIT"(Ro.2:29).
RISEN WITH HIM--"Even when we were dead in sins,hath made us alive together with Christ...and hath raised us up together...in Christ Jesus." We are "made alive" by the Holy Spirit--Jn.6:63;1Pet.1:12.
together IN CHRIST--"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into...the Body of Christ...
It is so simple,JustAChristian.
We are saved by a Spiritual baptism.Nowhere does Scripture support the idea that we are IN CHRIST by a "water baptism".
However,you are correct that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at that time."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Gal.3:27).BUT the baptism is by ALL accounts a Spiritual baptism.
In His grace,--Jerry
You are soooooooo correct when you say that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at this time. 'For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ'Gal.3:27).
According to Scripture,"by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
Here,it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the baptism into Christ.
Never even ONCE is the rite of "water baptism" said to baptize anyone into Christ.NOT ONCE.
ALL the evidence points to the fact that it is a Spiritual baptism that baptizes us into the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no evidence whatsoever that ties a rite of water baptism to our baptism into Christ.
By one Spirit are we baptized into Jesus Christ,and "as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death"(Ro.6:4)
Are we suppose to believe that we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ but "water baptized" into His death?
No,everything connected with our identification with His death and resurrection is through the Holy Spirit:
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
"Buried with Him in baptism,in which also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God,Who has raised Him from the dead"(Col.11,12).
CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS--"Circumcision is that of the heart,IN THE SPIRIT"(Ro.2:29).
RISEN WITH HIM--"Even when we were dead in sins,hath made us alive together with Christ...and hath raised us up together...in Christ Jesus." We are "made alive" by the Holy Spirit--Jn.6:63;1Pet.1:12.
together IN CHRIST--"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into...the Body of Christ...
It is so simple,JustAChristian.
We are saved by a Spiritual baptism.Nowhere does Scripture support the idea that we are IN CHRIST by a "water baptism".
However,you are correct that "Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST.We are joined to the Lord at that time."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Gal.3:27).BUT the baptism is by ALL accounts a Spiritual baptism.
In His grace,--Jerry