The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Evangelion
New member
Aptly spoken, JGalt.
JGalt and Evang.. if you have nothing to add to the conversation please stay out of the thread.
c.moore
New member
quote: justAchristian
Instead of asking me question why don't you address the points that I made in my last post? Seems like there is enough "meat" there for you to chew on awhile.
Quote:c.moore
So I anwered your question .
Now can you answer mine maybe I`ll quote it again for you.
When did we become sinners , and how did we work to become sinners?
When is the blood of Jesus used in salvation or being saved?
Is the Blood of Jesus in effect after the water baptism or before on us?
When are we righteous, after baptism or before?
When are we Justifyed ,after baptism or before?
What did Jesus do 2000 year ago so we can be righteous?
When are we forgiven of our sins , after baptism or before?
Can a person enter Heaven if he is righteous through Jesus Christ?
can a person enter heaven if he is just through Jesus christ?
When does a person recieve the Holy Spirit?
does fire comes before smoke, and is the fire the key to having a fire?
the same is in the verse Mark 16:16 , that believing is the key to heaven, and the fruit after the believing is baptism.
I know that smoke is not fire, the same is water baptism is not the key to everlasting life.
I you don`t know the answer, then visit your nearest fire department station and ask them Justachristian.
It the same with a car, you can`t drive unless you have the main thing a car and it is true we should obey and want to drive the car after, after, after, having your car.
Have you ever seen anyone drive a real car without the car??????.
So is the meaning of Baptism praise God.
Just a small sunday school teaching for you, I hope it helps your understanding of the deeper things of the bible baptism.
Kevin check this out as well please.
Let God please you!
Instead of asking me question why don't you address the points that I made in my last post? Seems like there is enough "meat" there for you to chew on awhile.
Quote:c.moore
So I anwered your question .
Now can you answer mine maybe I`ll quote it again for you.
When did we become sinners , and how did we work to become sinners?
When is the blood of Jesus used in salvation or being saved?
Is the Blood of Jesus in effect after the water baptism or before on us?
When are we righteous, after baptism or before?
When are we Justifyed ,after baptism or before?
What did Jesus do 2000 year ago so we can be righteous?
When are we forgiven of our sins , after baptism or before?
Can a person enter Heaven if he is righteous through Jesus Christ?
can a person enter heaven if he is just through Jesus christ?
When does a person recieve the Holy Spirit?
does fire comes before smoke, and is the fire the key to having a fire?
the same is in the verse Mark 16:16 , that believing is the key to heaven, and the fruit after the believing is baptism.
I know that smoke is not fire, the same is water baptism is not the key to everlasting life.
I you don`t know the answer, then visit your nearest fire department station and ask them Justachristian.
It the same with a car, you can`t drive unless you have the main thing a car and it is true we should obey and want to drive the car after, after, after, having your car.
Have you ever seen anyone drive a real car without the car??????.
So is the meaning of Baptism praise God.
Just a small sunday school teaching for you, I hope it helps your understanding of the deeper things of the bible baptism.
Kevin check this out as well please.
Let God please you!
Last edited:
Kevin
New member
Nice try.
Nice try.
C.Moore,
Not so fast. I'll answer your questions as soon as you do the courtesy of answering mine. You're not doing your cause much good by continually avoiding my questions. Everybody can see it. Since you attend a "5000 member church with an ordained minister", these questions should be easy to answer. So what's the problem?
Nice try.
C.Moore,
Not so fast. I'll answer your questions as soon as you do the courtesy of answering mine. You're not doing your cause much good by continually avoiding my questions. Everybody can see it. Since you attend a "5000 member church with an ordained minister", these questions should be easy to answer.
So what's the problem?
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Quote kevin
You can compare me to other religions all you want. But the fact is that I'm debating the Holy Bible with you, not the Book of Mormon or any other false literature. Thus far, you have not been able to refute my points, which come from the Bible. All the empty religious comparisons in the world doesn't change the fact that your doctrine, in which you can't find one biblical conversion of faith only after the church was instituted, doesn't stack up to the teachings of the word of God. It doesn't do any good to spew out testimonials that aren't Biblically backed.
Quote:c.moore
I use the book of mormon only to show how they use the bible to make their book of mormon because every scripture and theology biblically they use you have used, and please don`t understand me I am not calling you a mormon like I thought you was before we got to learn about each other. I have met people who believe that Jesus is not God , and they are not Jehovah witness, but they pull out the same biblical interpretation as the JHW.
Thé same as with water baptism doctrine, and one doctrine that is destroying the kingdom of God is the doctrine againt God prosperty for us. people think biblically that christian should not be rich and blessed, and live in overflow like the bible says we should John 10:10.
I have read and study the bible many times kevin and everytime I read the bible again I find a deeper revelation of something I read before like in Romans explaining that I am righteuos by Jesus Christ and I don`t have to do nothing to become righteous becaue I found out the deeper revelation that I was made right praise God and that why I don`t run into condemnation any more when I sin so much and I can keep my Joy and peace as an adopted child of GOd AMEN.
I told Justachristian about fire comes before smoke and I say the same to you kevin and everybody knows that both are involved,but required is the fire and the thing that makes something burn is the fire, and the key to burning is fire.
the very same thing is with you verse you stand on with M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Let me put in a carnal way so you can understand the bible from a spiritual point of veiw.
Mark 16:16 he that has a fire and mákes something burn shall be an arson.
notice the fire is the root and key to being an arson, but of course you should burn something ,but the danger is really in the fire or the power is in the fire, get the spiritual veiw brother kevin??
Quote kevin
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I will fully financially reimburse anybody on this planet who is willing to raise a corpse as the apostles did. You, or anybody else, don't have anything to lose if you're right, right? You can sing it, but can you bring it?
Quote :c.moore
Yes ,I can bring it again, like I did on growing limbs raising the dead thread, but you can keep your money just give Jesus the honor and glory that his is the same yesterday today and forever, and that God has no respect of persons praise God.
You said we have our difference in belief , but let me tell you how dangerious this is.
Let`s take a piece of pie that look so good from the outside and I am hungry, and you want to give me a piece of this pie, but you say C.Moore I have made this pie and I know how to cook the best pie in the world and I even had a study in cooking as a chief cook, but I mixed only one tea spoon of a deadly poison in the pie , for sure I, and noone else will eat you pie no matter how you show how good it looks.
But Hey; you might get a couple of fools who might still take the chance eat your pie, or you doctrine of water baptism.
Quote kevin
Where proof texts to back your hollow theory? And incidentally, I wouldn't call people who can read and understand the Bible "fools". It is indeed foolish to pick and choose part of what the Bible teaches and make it into its own man-made doctrine. That's foolish.
Quote c.moore
the proof text is :Ga:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ga:5:7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Ga:5:8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Ga:5:9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
and the main bible verse to my proof is
Ga:5:9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
I know this is dealing with your religion but you said you wanted bible scriptures so that why I`m quoting so many for you and I will break down the walls of religious, man made religion theology with the sword, or the Word of God, with help of the Hoy Spirit,
Thank you Jesus AMEN.
I will answer all your main important question biblically so we can destroy satan religious doctrines together.
Let`s destroy satans kingdom not God`s kingdom.
By the way I forgot about why I the bible use fools,
because:Ti:3:3: For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Ti:3:4: But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Proverb:8:5: O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
Should I go on Kevin showing about fool biblically?
Let me continue on the next post because I just got started and my computer sometimes gets jammed and I have to start all over again like I did yesterday two times, so I will be carful and send the bible answers in part if you don`t mind.
Re:2:7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Let God Bless you
You can compare me to other religions all you want. But the fact is that I'm debating the Holy Bible with you, not the Book of Mormon or any other false literature. Thus far, you have not been able to refute my points, which come from the Bible. All the empty religious comparisons in the world doesn't change the fact that your doctrine, in which you can't find one biblical conversion of faith only after the church was instituted, doesn't stack up to the teachings of the word of God. It doesn't do any good to spew out testimonials that aren't Biblically backed.
Quote:c.moore
I use the book of mormon only to show how they use the bible to make their book of mormon because every scripture and theology biblically they use you have used, and please don`t understand me I am not calling you a mormon like I thought you was before we got to learn about each other. I have met people who believe that Jesus is not God , and they are not Jehovah witness, but they pull out the same biblical interpretation as the JHW.
Thé same as with water baptism doctrine, and one doctrine that is destroying the kingdom of God is the doctrine againt God prosperty for us. people think biblically that christian should not be rich and blessed, and live in overflow like the bible says we should John 10:10.
I have read and study the bible many times kevin and everytime I read the bible again I find a deeper revelation of something I read before like in Romans explaining that I am righteuos by Jesus Christ and I don`t have to do nothing to become righteous becaue I found out the deeper revelation that I was made right praise God and that why I don`t run into condemnation any more when I sin so much and I can keep my Joy and peace as an adopted child of GOd AMEN.
I told Justachristian about fire comes before smoke and I say the same to you kevin and everybody knows that both are involved,but required is the fire and the thing that makes something burn is the fire, and the key to burning is fire.
the very same thing is with you verse you stand on with M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Let me put in a carnal way so you can understand the bible from a spiritual point of veiw.
Mark 16:16 he that has a fire and mákes something burn shall be an arson.
notice the fire is the root and key to being an arson, but of course you should burn something ,but the danger is really in the fire or the power is in the fire, get the spiritual veiw brother kevin??
Quote kevin
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I will fully financially reimburse anybody on this planet who is willing to raise a corpse as the apostles did. You, or anybody else, don't have anything to lose if you're right, right? You can sing it, but can you bring it?
Quote :c.moore
Yes ,I can bring it again, like I did on growing limbs raising the dead thread, but you can keep your money just give Jesus the honor and glory that his is the same yesterday today and forever, and that God has no respect of persons praise God.
You said we have our difference in belief , but let me tell you how dangerious this is.
Let`s take a piece of pie that look so good from the outside and I am hungry, and you want to give me a piece of this pie, but you say C.Moore I have made this pie and I know how to cook the best pie in the world and I even had a study in cooking as a chief cook, but I mixed only one tea spoon of a deadly poison in the pie , for sure I, and noone else will eat you pie no matter how you show how good it looks.
But Hey; you might get a couple of fools who might still take the chance eat your pie, or you doctrine of water baptism.
Quote kevin
Where proof texts to back your hollow theory? And incidentally, I wouldn't call people who can read and understand the Bible "fools". It is indeed foolish to pick and choose part of what the Bible teaches and make it into its own man-made doctrine. That's foolish.
Quote c.moore
the proof text is :Ga:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ga:5:7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Ga:5:8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Ga:5:9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
and the main bible verse to my proof is
Ga:5:9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
I know this is dealing with your religion but you said you wanted bible scriptures so that why I`m quoting so many for you and I will break down the walls of religious, man made religion theology with the sword, or the Word of God, with help of the Hoy Spirit,
Thank you Jesus AMEN.
I will answer all your main important question biblically so we can destroy satan religious doctrines together.
Let`s destroy satans kingdom not God`s kingdom.
By the way I forgot about why I the bible use fools,
because:Ti:3:3: For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Ti:3:4: But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Proverb:8:5: O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
Should I go on Kevin showing about fool biblically?
Let me continue on the next post because I just got started and my computer sometimes gets jammed and I have to start all over again like I did yesterday two times, so I will be carful and send the bible answers in part if you don`t mind.
Re:2:7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Let God Bless you
c.moore
New member
Quote:Look for yourself kevin did you see salvation iwritten in any of those sriptures?, I didn`t see any .
Quote kevin
You have GOT to be kidding me!!
Here, I'll copy and paste them again, and this time I'll add points in there to link them to salvation, ok? The new points will be in BOLD.
Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.
Who will have rights to the tree of Life? _ those who do His commandments ________________
WILL PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO THE TREE OF LIFE BE SAVED?__no_________ WILL PEOPLE WHO HAVE RIGHTS TO THE TREE OF LIFE BE SAVED?__yes__________
Note: because Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
To whom is Jesus the author of eternal salvation? _________ to all who obey Him.
________ Is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to those who don't obey Him?____yes_________________
IF JESUS IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO A PERSON, IS THAT PERSON SAVED?__no one would be_________
Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
What will happen to those who "do not obey the truth"? _ tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, _______________
IF YOU ARE ENDURING "TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH" ARE YOU SAVED?_nope_____________
John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
Those who __ keeps My word __________ shall never see death. Who WILL see death? __those who don`t believe______________ ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SEE'S DEATH SAVED?_no, that`s why they are unbelievers not because they are unbaptizers_________
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Is the truth in someone who claims to know Him and does not keep His commandments? _no_____ What does verse 4 call those who claim to know Him and do not keep His comandments? __liars__________ WILL LIARS BE IN HEAVEN, C.MOORE?no________
Note: only the righteous and Just will be in heaven kevin according to: Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 John 2:17
17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
Who will abide forever? ___ but he who does the will _________________ Who will NOT abide forever?____they that do not the will ______________ ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT ABIDE FOREVER SAVED?_no_______
note: only when they deny Jesus as savior and that They says they are not the righteous, and just and deny the blood of Jesus,and don`t trust Jesus any more,because they are their own god, no need for any other.
If you can't see that these verses have an impact on our salvation, than you are not fully comprehending what these verses are saying. Either that or your pride will not allow you to answer these very simple questions.
Do you visit schools with children in them, C.Moore? I would invite you to print off the verses and questions (without your editing) that I've posted and give them the test that I've given you. Your pride is REALLY showing.
And you still avoided this simple question. All I'm asking is for a simple YES OR NO. Can you answer this YES or NO question, C.Moore?!:
I have anwered your question correctly and can you at least do the same for me??????????
As I said before, works of obedience does play a role in our salvation, or how would you explain the fact that the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into HELL because of their lack of good works towards other people? Were they or were they not thrown in Hell because of their lack of good works? Answer this very simple question, C.Moore! Answer it... I dare you.
Quote c.moore
Trying studying the whole chapter kevin of matt 25 and you might get the real revelation , this is why I said find a anointed church with anonted teachers who rightly divide the Word of God. I`ll try to help you because of the love in me with your study. Let`s first of all check this out M't:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
M't:25:32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
M't:25:33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Take notes: in verse 32 there is a seperation meaning God know who belong to Him and we know that we are His sheep and we hear his voice , because the sheeps already know that they belong to the shephard without earning to be sheeps they are the sheeps praise God
Lets continue our studies by going into the next verse 33, which we see that we are seated at the right hand of God.just because we are his sheeps.
Now let get the revelation here kevin, in verse 34 there is a receiving taking place not a working or obeying to be a sheep,and the good new about it all being a sheep is that the kingdom of God was prepared for us already before we can even do any kind of works or obedience that why we do what we do.
In verse 45, and 46 is for the goats and of course they won`t do any works, and even believe,because they are not the elected sheeps.Remember one fact that God see`s the end before the beginning and he see`s already who wil be his sheeps. If you study on your own you will get a better revelation about Matthew 25.
Let God bless you
Quote kevin
You have GOT to be kidding me!!
Here, I'll copy and paste them again, and this time I'll add points in there to link them to salvation, ok? The new points will be in BOLD.
Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.
Who will have rights to the tree of Life? _ those who do His commandments ________________
WILL PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO THE TREE OF LIFE BE SAVED?__no_________ WILL PEOPLE WHO HAVE RIGHTS TO THE TREE OF LIFE BE SAVED?__yes__________
Note: because Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
To whom is Jesus the author of eternal salvation? _________ to all who obey Him.
________ Is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to those who don't obey Him?____yes_________________
IF JESUS IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO A PERSON, IS THAT PERSON SAVED?__no one would be_________
Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
What will happen to those who "do not obey the truth"? _ tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, _______________
IF YOU ARE ENDURING "TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH" ARE YOU SAVED?_nope_____________
John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
Those who __ keeps My word __________ shall never see death. Who WILL see death? __those who don`t believe______________ ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SEE'S DEATH SAVED?_no, that`s why they are unbelievers not because they are unbaptizers_________
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Is the truth in someone who claims to know Him and does not keep His commandments? _no_____ What does verse 4 call those who claim to know Him and do not keep His comandments? __liars__________ WILL LIARS BE IN HEAVEN, C.MOORE?no________
Note: only the righteous and Just will be in heaven kevin according to: Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 John 2:17
17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
Who will abide forever? ___ but he who does the will _________________ Who will NOT abide forever?____they that do not the will ______________ ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT ABIDE FOREVER SAVED?_no_______
note: only when they deny Jesus as savior and that They says they are not the righteous, and just and deny the blood of Jesus,and don`t trust Jesus any more,because they are their own god, no need for any other.
If you can't see that these verses have an impact on our salvation, than you are not fully comprehending what these verses are saying. Either that or your pride will not allow you to answer these very simple questions.
Do you visit schools with children in them, C.Moore? I would invite you to print off the verses and questions (without your editing) that I've posted and give them the test that I've given you. Your pride is REALLY showing.
And you still avoided this simple question. All I'm asking is for a simple YES OR NO. Can you answer this YES or NO question, C.Moore?!:
I have anwered your question correctly and can you at least do the same for me??????????
As I said before, works of obedience does play a role in our salvation, or how would you explain the fact that the people in Matt. 25:41-46 were thrown into HELL because of their lack of good works towards other people? Were they or were they not thrown in Hell because of their lack of good works? Answer this very simple question, C.Moore! Answer it... I dare you.
Quote c.moore
Trying studying the whole chapter kevin of matt 25 and you might get the real revelation , this is why I said find a anointed church with anonted teachers who rightly divide the Word of God. I`ll try to help you because of the love in me with your study. Let`s first of all check this out M't:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
M't:25:32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
M't:25:33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Take notes: in verse 32 there is a seperation meaning God know who belong to Him and we know that we are His sheep and we hear his voice , because the sheeps already know that they belong to the shephard without earning to be sheeps they are the sheeps praise God
Lets continue our studies by going into the next verse 33, which we see that we are seated at the right hand of God.just because we are his sheeps.
Now let get the revelation here kevin, in verse 34 there is a receiving taking place not a working or obeying to be a sheep,and the good new about it all being a sheep is that the kingdom of God was prepared for us already before we can even do any kind of works or obedience that why we do what we do.
In verse 45, and 46 is for the goats and of course they won`t do any works, and even believe,because they are not the elected sheeps.Remember one fact that God see`s the end before the beginning and he see`s already who wil be his sheeps. If you study on your own you will get a better revelation about Matthew 25.
Let God bless you
c.moore
New member
Quote:Quote: kevin
Where is an example of a faith only conversion, after the chruch was instituted? Where? Quote c.moore I might sound like the Rev Leanord, but here we go Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one. That's all you have to say. Shouldn't that raise a red flag (the answer to this question is YES). You choose to follow a doctrine in which there is NO Biblical example of.. There are plenty of conversions that I can point out that support my view.
Incidentally, about John 3:16, it doesn't do any good to believe in Him if you don't do what He says is necessary to be saved. You might as well say "I believe in you Lord, but I don't think I have to do what you say in order to be saved!". Sounds like sound logic to me!
Quote c.moore
So you said kevin : So you can't find one c.moore.
I am glad you said that because now I can kick religious thinking in the behind!
I hope this will opens your eyes to see that you need a anointed church and pastor ,with Spiit filled teachers and elders that can divide the Word correctly for you so you can gain understanding.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one.
Quote c.moore
Sorry that the bible says more than just one believes and trust in the Lord Jesus which makes them saved followers without water baptism mention.
Their fath made them believe, not baptism.
Ac:9:42: And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one.
Quote c.moore
Ac:17:12: Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one
Quote c.moore
Ac:19:16: And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Ac:19:17: And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
Ac:19:18: And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds
Quote c.moore
Can you this time fill in the empty space to show belief is everlasting life?
2Tm:1:12: For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
What did he ___________ so he is keep until the judgement day or that day?
Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
He that heareth my word, and ________________ on him that sent me, hath everlasting life
Look no baptism and no everlasting hell, and no religious works, but still eternal life.
Ro:5:21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Look at this verse kevin, and see that reigned mean pass down or given to us without doing anything wrong and sins, and the same is with the righteousness reign down to us through Jesus Christ also without doing anything right, obedience and doing any baptism or religious rituals.
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Who can be justified kevin through Jesus grace??___________
Who is the just in verse 26?___________
Notice it says nothing about just to the water baptized people.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
In verse 10 what is made unto salvation?
No mention of water baptism mention for salvation in this verse.
The bible says God is not a God of confussion kevin.
Does the bible contridict itself kevin???????????
I can go on, and on with hundreds of belief, and righteous scriptures that gives us eternal life ,with no problem, but the bible says in the mouth of two or three witness so I guest those scriptures should be enough to prove belief saves and is salvation because the bible says so.
Let God bless you
Where is an example of a faith only conversion, after the chruch was instituted? Where? Quote c.moore I might sound like the Rev Leanord, but here we go Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one. That's all you have to say. Shouldn't that raise a red flag (the answer to this question is YES). You choose to follow a doctrine in which there is NO Biblical example of.. There are plenty of conversions that I can point out that support my view.
Incidentally, about John 3:16, it doesn't do any good to believe in Him if you don't do what He says is necessary to be saved. You might as well say "I believe in you Lord, but I don't think I have to do what you say in order to be saved!". Sounds like sound logic to me!
Quote c.moore
So you said kevin : So you can't find one c.moore.
I am glad you said that because now I can kick religious thinking in the behind!
I hope this will opens your eyes to see that you need a anointed church and pastor ,with Spiit filled teachers and elders that can divide the Word correctly for you so you can gain understanding.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one.
Quote c.moore
Sorry that the bible says more than just one believes and trust in the Lord Jesus which makes them saved followers without water baptism mention.
Their fath made them believe, not baptism.
Ac:9:42: And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one.
Quote c.moore
Ac:17:12: Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Quote kevin
So you can't find one
Quote c.moore
Ac:19:16: And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Ac:19:17: And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
Ac:19:18: And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds
Quote c.moore
Can you this time fill in the empty space to show belief is everlasting life?
2Tm:1:12: For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
What did he ___________ so he is keep until the judgement day or that day?
Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
He that heareth my word, and ________________ on him that sent me, hath everlasting life
Look no baptism and no everlasting hell, and no religious works, but still eternal life.
Ro:5:21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Look at this verse kevin, and see that reigned mean pass down or given to us without doing anything wrong and sins, and the same is with the righteousness reign down to us through Jesus Christ also without doing anything right, obedience and doing any baptism or religious rituals.
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Who can be justified kevin through Jesus grace??___________
Who is the just in verse 26?___________
Notice it says nothing about just to the water baptized people.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
In verse 10 what is made unto salvation?
No mention of water baptism mention for salvation in this verse.
The bible says God is not a God of confussion kevin.
Does the bible contridict itself kevin???????????
I can go on, and on with hundreds of belief, and righteous scriptures that gives us eternal life ,with no problem, but the bible says in the mouth of two or three witness so I guest those scriptures should be enough to prove belief saves and is salvation because the bible says so.
Let God bless you
JustAChristian
New member
Freak want me to surrender!!!
Freak want me to surrender!!!
Freak,
I would have you to accept the scripture for what it says and obey the Lord in being baptized for the remission of sin and inherit the kingdom of God.
JustAchristian
Freak want me to surrender!!!
Freak,
I would have you to accept the scripture for what it says and obey the Lord in being baptized for the remission of sin and inherit the kingdom of God.
JustAchristian
c.moore
New member
Quote:Originally posted by c.moore
]QUOTE]Quote c.moore No , we are saved as soon as we repent and believe and trust Jesus not our works. Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Quote : JustAChristian
Isn't repentance and belief works?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)
Quote c.moore
It is really faith and the repentance and belief is done by the works of the mouth and heart unto salvation.
Quote:c.moore1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) (by the resurrection of Jesus ChristJ
Quote JustAChristian
How do you gain relationship and good conscience? Have you not read Galatians 3:27?
But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. (Heb. 5:14). Doing God's will in faith and obedience, gaining entrance into Christ, will exercise our conscience. There will never be an obedient conscience that has not done what is required unto obedience of faith
Quote c.moore
Ac:2:37: Now when they heard this,( they were pricked in their heart), and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Note : first they ask how and what shall they do and notice they wewre pricked or better to say moved in their heart to believe and 2nd repent like in ROM 10:9, and 3nd receive baptism to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like Jesus did when he came out the water the dove fell on HIM., not salvation. O, you mean that you are the recipient of the Holy Spirit before you are saved? Peter said that baptism saves (1 Peter 3:19-21). Now, he was an inspired apostle. You are just a man like me. Who are we going to believe, an apostle or a man ? We are justfied by faith and we are righteous by faith . Ro:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Ro:5:2: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Are you saying that being baptized is being unfaithful or not having faith? Surely you’re not saying that, but if you are justified by faith only then you are being unfaithful if you repent and are baptized. Can you receive the Holy Spirit and be unfaithful? C.moore, can’t you see how deep your hole is getting? Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Quote justachristian
How did Abraham believe God? What shows that he believed God? Lets read the bible:
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb..11:8-10). Looks to me like Abraham did some works. He obeyed...he went...he became a sojourner...he dwelt in tents...he looked for a city. Abraham was a great worker unto righteousness. Your problem, c.moore, is that you've got your mind mixed up on what faith is and what it is not. God wants us to work (by grace...through faith...)
Quote c.moore
It true he obey but unto men, but faith is what counted for God says the bible, not the obeying pleased God.
Ro:4:2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory;( but not before God.)
Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? (Abraham believed God), and( it was counted unto him for righteousness.)
This why believing is righteous for us also because we are the children of Abraham thoses who believe and haVE faith.
JustAChristian please rightly divide the word of God.
Quote:Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
We are not "Davids" and do not live as David. Neither are we thieves on the cross. We are subjects of the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) which requires faith and obedience. Baptism is to be obeyed before one is saved (Mark 16:16).
Here we go again with the smoke before the fire.
Let me teach a little more study this JustAChristian !
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ro:4:7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Ro:4:8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ro:4:9: Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Ro:4:10: How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Ro:4:11: And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
If you can understand what this is saying you will be blessed and kno2w the truth will set you free, and you would take back your Quote, because here is the truth to what you just said.
Quote justachristian
We are not "Davids" and do not live as David. Neither are we thieves on the cross. We are subjects of the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) which requires faith and obedience. Baptism is to be obeyed before one is saved (Mark 16:16).
I quoted you quote so you can study to see where you missed the truth.
]QUOTE]Quote c.moore No , we are saved as soon as we repent and believe and trust Jesus not our works. Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Quote : JustAChristian
Isn't repentance and belief works?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)
Quote c.moore
It is really faith and the repentance and belief is done by the works of the mouth and heart unto salvation.
Quote:c.moore1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) (by the resurrection of Jesus ChristJ
Quote JustAChristian
How do you gain relationship and good conscience? Have you not read Galatians 3:27?
But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. (Heb. 5:14). Doing God's will in faith and obedience, gaining entrance into Christ, will exercise our conscience. There will never be an obedient conscience that has not done what is required unto obedience of faith
Quote c.moore
Ac:2:37: Now when they heard this,( they were pricked in their heart), and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Note : first they ask how and what shall they do and notice they wewre pricked or better to say moved in their heart to believe and 2nd repent like in ROM 10:9, and 3nd receive baptism to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like Jesus did when he came out the water the dove fell on HIM., not salvation. O, you mean that you are the recipient of the Holy Spirit before you are saved? Peter said that baptism saves (1 Peter 3:19-21). Now, he was an inspired apostle. You are just a man like me. Who are we going to believe, an apostle or a man ? We are justfied by faith and we are righteous by faith . Ro:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Ro:5:2: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Are you saying that being baptized is being unfaithful or not having faith? Surely you’re not saying that, but if you are justified by faith only then you are being unfaithful if you repent and are baptized. Can you receive the Holy Spirit and be unfaithful? C.moore, can’t you see how deep your hole is getting? Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Quote justachristian
How did Abraham believe God? What shows that he believed God? Lets read the bible:
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb..11:8-10). Looks to me like Abraham did some works. He obeyed...he went...he became a sojourner...he dwelt in tents...he looked for a city. Abraham was a great worker unto righteousness. Your problem, c.moore, is that you've got your mind mixed up on what faith is and what it is not. God wants us to work (by grace...through faith...)
Quote c.moore
It true he obey but unto men, but faith is what counted for God says the bible, not the obeying pleased God.
Ro:4:2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory;( but not before God.)
Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? (Abraham believed God), and( it was counted unto him for righteousness.)
This why believing is righteous for us also because we are the children of Abraham thoses who believe and haVE faith.
JustAChristian please rightly divide the word of God.
Quote:Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
We are not "Davids" and do not live as David. Neither are we thieves on the cross. We are subjects of the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) which requires faith and obedience. Baptism is to be obeyed before one is saved (Mark 16:16).
Here we go again with the smoke before the fire.
Let me teach a little more study this JustAChristian !
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ro:4:7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Ro:4:8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ro:4:9: Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Ro:4:10: How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Ro:4:11: And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
If you can understand what this is saying you will be blessed and kno2w the truth will set you free, and you would take back your Quote, because here is the truth to what you just said.
Quote justachristian
We are not "Davids" and do not live as David. Neither are we thieves on the cross. We are subjects of the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25) which requires faith and obedience. Baptism is to be obeyed before one is saved (Mark 16:16).
I quoted you quote so you can study to see where you missed the truth.
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Passover!
Passover!
C.moore,
The Jews observed Passover once a year, but you observe the"passover" everytime someone answers your post. You constantly passover rational argument and debate for your home spun doctrine of FAITH ONLY. The Bible says, "...baptism doeth also NOW SAVE us....NOW SAVE...NOW SAVE... what saves? BAPTISM!!!! When does it save? NOW!!!! How does Baptism now save? By the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16). "Seeing how you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH....(1 Peter 1:22). We are told to be baptized. Baptism is of the bible and thus of faith (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Jude 3). This not man's doctrine, this is the bible. You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith. You may not literally say this but deep down, this is what you mean. The big problem you have is that you are among that group that ...are ever learning but never able to come to the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Faith with out obedience is not going to avail anyone. Everyone in the bible that exercised faith, did so by obedience. Find one biblical character that did not and I have no argument. Being baptized is obeying the command of the Lord (Acts 10:47-49). To have faith is a command of the Lord, and there is no salvation without it, but to exclude all other commands in favor of faith only is without biblical justification and senseless. "Trust and Obey, for theres no other way to be happy in Jesus than to Trust and Obey"
JustAChristian
Passover!
C.moore,
The Jews observed Passover once a year, but you observe the"passover" everytime someone answers your post. You constantly passover rational argument and debate for your home spun doctrine of FAITH ONLY. The Bible says, "...baptism doeth also NOW SAVE us....NOW SAVE...NOW SAVE... what saves? BAPTISM!!!! When does it save? NOW!!!! How does Baptism now save? By the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16). "Seeing how you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH....(1 Peter 1:22). We are told to be baptized. Baptism is of the bible and thus of faith (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Jude 3). This not man's doctrine, this is the bible. You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith. You may not literally say this but deep down, this is what you mean. The big problem you have is that you are among that group that ...are ever learning but never able to come to the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Faith with out obedience is not going to avail anyone. Everyone in the bible that exercised faith, did so by obedience. Find one biblical character that did not and I have no argument. Being baptized is obeying the command of the Lord (Acts 10:47-49). To have faith is a command of the Lord, and there is no salvation without it, but to exclude all other commands in favor of faith only is without biblical justification and senseless. "Trust and Obey, for theres no other way to be happy in Jesus than to Trust and Obey"
JustAChristian
Last edited:
Kevin
New member
C.Moore,
You are comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to use a fire analogy, in which smoke is a mere after effect of fire, to the conditions that Christ laid to for salvation; belief and baptism. Both belief and baptism preceed salvation, and none of your analogies will be able to put baptism after salvation. None.
If you were to come down and do this, I would certainly give God the honor, you don't have to worry about. I mentioned money because it would only be fair for me to reimburse traveling expenses. If you're serious, come and down and grow some limbs or raise the dead. I'd love to see it.
Did you happen to notice verse 6 -- "For in Jesus Christ"? Just how do you think we become "in Christ"? I have Biblical evidence to show that baptism is how we become "in Christ" (Gal. 3:27).
I'll continue answering in another post...
You are comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to use a fire analogy, in which smoke is a mere after effect of fire, to the conditions that Christ laid to for salvation; belief and baptism. Both belief and baptism preceed salvation, and none of your analogies will be able to put baptism after salvation. None.
If you were to come down and do this, I would certainly give God the honor, you don't have to worry about. I mentioned money because it would only be fair for me to reimburse traveling expenses. If you're serious, come and down and grow some limbs or raise the dead. I'd love to see it.
Did you happen to notice verse 6 -- "For in Jesus Christ"? Just how do you think we become "in Christ"? I have Biblical evidence to show that baptism is how we become "in Christ" (Gal. 3:27).
I'll continue answering in another post...
Kevin
New member
C.Moore,
Good. So you admit that it is "those who do His commandments" who will have rights to the tree of life. Do you have a verse that shows that people who do not keep His commandments will have rights to the tree of life? It looks like you tried to answe this with:
"Note: because Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
That end of the law of righteousness is referring to the Mosaic Law. Show me a verse that says that those who do not do the commandments of Christ will have rights to the tree of life.
So you admit that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to "all who obey Him". Yet, you also say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to people who don't obey Him. Where is the proof texts that supports this assertion?
Seeing that Christ makes the qualification of who will never see death, those who keeps His word, how can you say that people who do not obey Him will never see death?
You admit that the truth is NOT in somebody who does not keep His commandments. Obviously, somebody who does not have the truth will not make it to heaven. Yet you claim that somebody who does not keep His commandments will still go to heaven. How do you reconcile this?
Yes, and the righteous are the ones who do His commandment, for they will have rights to the tree of life.
Yes, those who deny Jesus will not be saved, I agree with you. But this verse also indicates the necessity of not only believing in Jesus, but doing the will of the Father, which certainly includes the obeying of His commandments.
This is not a debate about predistination or being God's elect. I simply asked if theses people were thrown into Hell because of their lack of good works towards mankind. Yes or no?
I'll answer more on the next post...
Good. So you admit that it is "those who do His commandments" who will have rights to the tree of life. Do you have a verse that shows that people who do not keep His commandments will have rights to the tree of life? It looks like you tried to answe this with:
"Note: because Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
That end of the law of righteousness is referring to the Mosaic Law. Show me a verse that says that those who do not do the commandments of Christ will have rights to the tree of life.
So you admit that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to "all who obey Him". Yet, you also say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to people who don't obey Him. Where is the proof texts that supports this assertion?
Seeing that Christ makes the qualification of who will never see death, those who keeps His word, how can you say that people who do not obey Him will never see death?
You admit that the truth is NOT in somebody who does not keep His commandments. Obviously, somebody who does not have the truth will not make it to heaven. Yet you claim that somebody who does not keep His commandments will still go to heaven. How do you reconcile this?
Yes, and the righteous are the ones who do His commandment, for they will have rights to the tree of life.
Yes, those who deny Jesus will not be saved, I agree with you. But this verse also indicates the necessity of not only believing in Jesus, but doing the will of the Father, which certainly includes the obeying of His commandments.
This is not a debate about predistination or being God's elect. I simply asked if theses people were thrown into Hell because of their lack of good works towards mankind. Yes or no?
I'll answer more on the next post...
Kevin
New member
C.Moore,
Ok, I'll give it to you that you showed me passages where there is no mention of baptism. However, this does not, in any way, prove that the people mentioned in these situations were not baptized into Christ.
We have many examples of conversion in the Bible that include baptism. Many. Acts 2:38 is just one of them. It was the first Biblically recorded gospel message ever preached. In those passages (Acts 2), we are shown what it takes to covert sinners of the world to Christ. In Peter's answer to them on how to do this, to be converted, Peter answered by commanding them to repent AND be baptized into Jesus. They did so.
Also consider the fact that Jesus commanded baptism in the Great Commission, and that He commanded that people observe everything that the apostles had been commanded, which includes baptism.
Therefore, based upon the fact that it was commanded by Christ, and the example in Acts 2:38, as well as many other examples, there is no evidence to suggest that the people that you mentioned were not baptized as well in the same manner of Acts 2:38. Why would there be two different methods of conversions?
Sure!
Answer: Believe. Now I would ask you, what kind of belief is it? Is it a belief that is dead unto it's own, or alive with the works of obedience? Even revhleonard, to whom you said "I can see why you would disagree Rev with kevin" believes that faith without works is dead. Do you?
Answer: Believeth. Part of a true belief is obeying Him in which you believe. Jesus says that if you love me, keep my commandments. People who do not keep His commandments do not love Him. Belief without keeping His commandments is useless, because you don't love Him. If one did, they would keep His commandments. So again, it boils down to what kind of belief that is being spoken of here... dead belief unto itself, or a belief which is alive with works of obedience?
Not in that verse, no. The difference is that I give credence to other verses in the Bible as well that DO link baptism as playing a role in our salvatioin. Perhaps someday if you would stop ONLY accepting PART of what the Bible says, you might understand this point.
Asnwer: Anyone, as long as they meet the requirements set by God to obain that grace. Belief and keeping Christ's commandments are somehting that we must do on our part.
Answer (verse 26): Believeth. What kind of belief?
Again, not in this verse, no. What, is only part of the Bible inspired, the parts that only mention faith? Or are the OTHER parts of the Bible that mention baptism having an impact on our salvation inspired? Yes. There's a lot of verses in the Bible that don't mention ANYTHING about belief or faith. Matt 25:41-46 DOESN'T MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT FAITH, yet, they people were cast into hell. By your logic, faith isn't required, because faith isn't mentioned in those verses! Of course I know better than that because I pay attention to ALL of the Bible, which tells me that faith is indeed needed for salvation.
Answer: Believeth. What kind of belief? Dead unto it's own, or alive with works of obedience?
As far as baptism not being mentioned in this verse, see my comments about this above.
No.
Ok, I'll give it to you that you showed me passages where there is no mention of baptism. However, this does not, in any way, prove that the people mentioned in these situations were not baptized into Christ.
We have many examples of conversion in the Bible that include baptism. Many. Acts 2:38 is just one of them. It was the first Biblically recorded gospel message ever preached. In those passages (Acts 2), we are shown what it takes to covert sinners of the world to Christ. In Peter's answer to them on how to do this, to be converted, Peter answered by commanding them to repent AND be baptized into Jesus. They did so.
Also consider the fact that Jesus commanded baptism in the Great Commission, and that He commanded that people observe everything that the apostles had been commanded, which includes baptism.
Therefore, based upon the fact that it was commanded by Christ, and the example in Acts 2:38, as well as many other examples, there is no evidence to suggest that the people that you mentioned were not baptized as well in the same manner of Acts 2:38. Why would there be two different methods of conversions?
Sure!
Answer: Believe. Now I would ask you, what kind of belief is it? Is it a belief that is dead unto it's own, or alive with the works of obedience? Even revhleonard, to whom you said "I can see why you would disagree Rev with kevin" believes that faith without works is dead. Do you?
Answer: Believeth. Part of a true belief is obeying Him in which you believe. Jesus says that if you love me, keep my commandments. People who do not keep His commandments do not love Him. Belief without keeping His commandments is useless, because you don't love Him. If one did, they would keep His commandments. So again, it boils down to what kind of belief that is being spoken of here... dead belief unto itself, or a belief which is alive with works of obedience?
Not in that verse, no. The difference is that I give credence to other verses in the Bible as well that DO link baptism as playing a role in our salvatioin. Perhaps someday if you would stop ONLY accepting PART of what the Bible says, you might understand this point.
Asnwer: Anyone, as long as they meet the requirements set by God to obain that grace. Belief and keeping Christ's commandments are somehting that we must do on our part.
Answer (verse 26): Believeth. What kind of belief?
Again, not in this verse, no. What, is only part of the Bible inspired, the parts that only mention faith? Or are the OTHER parts of the Bible that mention baptism having an impact on our salvation inspired? Yes. There's a lot of verses in the Bible that don't mention ANYTHING about belief or faith. Matt 25:41-46 DOESN'T MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT FAITH, yet, they people were cast into hell. By your logic, faith isn't required, because faith isn't mentioned in those verses! Of course I know better than that because I pay attention to ALL of the Bible, which tells me that faith is indeed needed for salvation.
Answer: Believeth. What kind of belief? Dead unto it's own, or alive with works of obedience?
As far as baptism not being mentioned in this verse, see my comments about this above.
No.
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
hey justachristian
Hello JustAChristian
Quote :c.moore
When did we become sinners ?
When is the blood of Jesus used in salvation or being saved?
Is the Blood of Jesus in effect after the water baptism or before on us?
When are we the righteous, after baptism or before?
When are we Justified ,after baptism or before?
When are we forgiven of our sins , after baptism or before?
Can a person enter Heaven if he is righteous through Jesus Christ?
can a person enter heaven if he is just through Jesus christ?
When does a person recieve the Holy Spirit after the water baptism or before?
I hope to here from you soon with your biblical answers, and I will see if you really have the word of God to back up your doctrine.
I answered your questions now it your turn.
let God bless you
Hello JustAChristian
Quote :c.moore
When did we become sinners ?
When is the blood of Jesus used in salvation or being saved?
Is the Blood of Jesus in effect after the water baptism or before on us?
When are we the righteous, after baptism or before?
When are we Justified ,after baptism or before?
When are we forgiven of our sins , after baptism or before?
Can a person enter Heaven if he is righteous through Jesus Christ?
can a person enter heaven if he is just through Jesus christ?
When does a person recieve the Holy Spirit after the water baptism or before?
I hope to here from you soon with your biblical answers, and I will see if you really have the word of God to back up your doctrine.
I answered your questions now it your turn.
let God bless you
JustAChristian
New member
The Study Of God's Word Is Essential To Knowledge and Proper Application
The Study Of God's Word Is Essential To Knowledge and Proper Application
No one reasonably accepts what they know to be a lie. This is because we can see the discredit it brings to our lives and lack of value it brings to the liar. However, in matters of religion many seem to establish a tolerlance to those things that are found to be lies. Because they will not accept the true conclusions in matters of faith or contrary to convenience and desire, lies are relative or rather truth is relative. There are many reasons truth is not always accepted, and here I’ll touch upon three of them.
Truth is rejected because it requires a study of the Bible. This study often conflicts with ones confidence in ones own religious feelings. The Apostle Paul instructed his young son in the faith , Timothy to “study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.” Why study ? In order to rightly divide the word of truth which is the word of God. This says then that any institution which says that it is the only authorized source of interpretation of the Bible is lying . Any individual who says that he can interprate the word of God independent of study is a liar. Untold millions have believed such a lie.
Each person has the right -yea the responsibility to learn the truth through a study of the Bible and to “ lean not on your own understanding” ( Prov. 3:5). You can certainly come to a correct understanding and acceptance of the Bible through a systematic study ( II Tim. 2:15 ). Afterwards, proper application of the word is expected.
JustAChristian
The Study Of God's Word Is Essential To Knowledge and Proper Application
No one reasonably accepts what they know to be a lie. This is because we can see the discredit it brings to our lives and lack of value it brings to the liar. However, in matters of religion many seem to establish a tolerlance to those things that are found to be lies. Because they will not accept the true conclusions in matters of faith or contrary to convenience and desire, lies are relative or rather truth is relative. There are many reasons truth is not always accepted, and here I’ll touch upon three of them.
Truth is rejected because it requires a study of the Bible. This study often conflicts with ones confidence in ones own religious feelings. The Apostle Paul instructed his young son in the faith , Timothy to “study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.” Why study ? In order to rightly divide the word of truth which is the word of God. This says then that any institution which says that it is the only authorized source of interpretation of the Bible is lying . Any individual who says that he can interprate the word of God independent of study is a liar. Untold millions have believed such a lie.
Each person has the right -yea the responsibility to learn the truth through a study of the Bible and to “ lean not on your own understanding” ( Prov. 3:5). You can certainly come to a correct understanding and acceptance of the Bible through a systematic study ( II Tim. 2:15 ). Afterwards, proper application of the word is expected.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
When Are You Going To Address My Post?
When Are You Going To Address My Post?
The Bible says that "..all we like sheep have gone astray" (Isa. 53:6). Sin is imputed in disobedience. When one disobeys one sins.
And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.(Rev 7:14) When they were baptized, they became "white as snow"
It is effective in the baptism (Romans 6:3-5) and if we continue to walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood continues to cleanse from all unrighteousness (1 John 1-7).
After. We are cleansed from unrighteousness in baptism and confession of sins.
After. For whom God called (to repentance and obedience by the gospel, Matthew 28:18-20), them he also justified (Romans 8:30).
After baptism, since it is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and after confessing of sins committed in the course of live as a Christian (1 John 1:7).
Absolutely
This is an easy test. Absolutely.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).
Now, I'm hoping you are man enough to admit that what I have shown you is the truth from the Bible, and will turn in repentance, confession and obedience to the will of Jesus Christ and be baptized in water for the remission of sin and cleansing of your soul.
When did you answer my questions? You've not touched on one thing that I have said. Show everybody where you have answered my questions.
1 Peter 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently".
When one is obedient to the truth, the word of God, then and only then is there cleansing of sins. It is not found in any book, chapter or verse, dealing with the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Gospel (James 1:25; Romans 1:16), where sins were ever forgiven except in obedient faith. As I said before, find one place and I have no argument at all. One might want to take the case of the thief on the cross and say that he was never baptized, but that context does not deal with the Law of Christ, the New Testament because Christ was not dead at this time and could verbally forgive sins.
Something that is almost always overlooked by the Faith Only crowd is that in Acts 2:38 "be baptized" is in the imparitive mood, meaning that it is a command that must be done. Also, "for the remission of sins" the "for" in Greek is "eis" and is in the accusative voice. This means that the preposition means "in order to" and can only mean "in order to". It can never mean anything else. So, one is to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Any distortion of this preposition to make it mean "because of" or anything else is without foundation or justification.
JustAChristian
When Are You Going To Address My Post?
The Bible says that "..all we like sheep have gone astray" (Isa. 53:6). Sin is imputed in disobedience. When one disobeys one sins.
And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.(Rev 7:14) When they were baptized, they became "white as snow"
It is effective in the baptism (Romans 6:3-5) and if we continue to walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood continues to cleanse from all unrighteousness (1 John 1-7).
After. We are cleansed from unrighteousness in baptism and confession of sins.
After. For whom God called (to repentance and obedience by the gospel, Matthew 28:18-20), them he also justified (Romans 8:30).
After baptism, since it is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and after confessing of sins committed in the course of live as a Christian (1 John 1:7).
Absolutely
This is an easy test. Absolutely.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).
Now, I'm hoping you are man enough to admit that what I have shown you is the truth from the Bible, and will turn in repentance, confession and obedience to the will of Jesus Christ and be baptized in water for the remission of sin and cleansing of your soul.
When did you answer my questions? You've not touched on one thing that I have said. Show everybody where you have answered my questions.
1 Peter 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently".
When one is obedient to the truth, the word of God, then and only then is there cleansing of sins. It is not found in any book, chapter or verse, dealing with the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Gospel (James 1:25; Romans 1:16), where sins were ever forgiven except in obedient faith. As I said before, find one place and I have no argument at all. One might want to take the case of the thief on the cross and say that he was never baptized, but that context does not deal with the Law of Christ, the New Testament because Christ was not dead at this time and could verbally forgive sins.
Something that is almost always overlooked by the Faith Only crowd is that in Acts 2:38 "be baptized" is in the imparitive mood, meaning that it is a command that must be done. Also, "for the remission of sins" the "for" in Greek is "eis" and is in the accusative voice. This means that the preposition means "in order to" and can only mean "in order to". It can never mean anything else. So, one is to repent and be baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Any distortion of this preposition to make it mean "because of" or anything else is without foundation or justification.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Quote by JustAChristian
C.moore, The Jews observed Passover once a year, but you observe the"passover" everytime someone answers your post. You constantly passover rational argument and debate for your home spun doctrine of FAITH ONLY.
Quote c.moore
Sorry , but some rational arguments and debate is so heresies I have to pass over, even God doesn`t want here about it because it so false and not from God like this baptism salvation doctrine.
Quote : JustAChristian
The Bible says, "...baptism doeth also NOW SAVE us....NOW SAVE...NOW SAVE... what saves? BAPTISM!!!! When does it save? NOW!!!! How does Baptism now save? By the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16).
Quote c.moore
So the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16) takes effect only when you come out of the H2O, or water; right?
So are you understanding the power of God can`t function unless there is water to clean our sins? I don`t think so.
Quote JustAChristian
"Seeing how you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH....(1 Peter 1:22).
Quote c.moore
I believe that we should, and must obey JustAChristian because I believe this very much :
De:28:1: And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
De:28:2: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
De:28:3: Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
De:28:4: Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
De:28:5: Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
De:28:6: Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Notice, what happen after being obedient and doing the commandments,
BLESSING will come and by obeying you will be BLESSED, but not obeying to get save.
The very same is when we get married, we do all for your partner only because you love them and have a relationship with them and even though people can tell you what to do and act you really don`t need to take lesson from people you have the love in you to do thing automatically for your partner.
It like make sex with your partner, you go by your feeling and you don`t have to obey somebody else instruction on how to make sex to your partner you do it with pleasure, and with your heart because of the relationship and love and that is why you stay faithful and do all you can to show you love the person you are with and other will see that by your works and relatioship that you are in love , or like the christian the bible says let your light so shine before others, and they will see from our doings that we are in love with Jesus Christ , and we obey only because we love Jesus because He first loved us.
You never work for your partner to get them to marry you, or make a show on how you can obey and do what ever they say so you can be a good slave to them, or a good servant, you please your partner by communication, and relationship knowing each other more and more ever day.
So is the relationship with Jesus, and that is what saves us is the love and trust, and faith in Jesus not your works that you can say look at this and look at that,this is not love, that called a grade system ,like going to school, or obeying like being in the army. When I was in the army I hated it because of all the things I had to do, but if I had my choice I would put my heart into certain things without being under pressure, so do you get what the bible is saying?
Quote by JustAChristian
We are told to be baptized. Baptism is of the bible and thus of faith (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Jude 3). This not man's doctrine, this is the bible. You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith. You may not literally say this but deep down, this is what you mean. The big problem you have is that you are among that group that ...are ever learning but never able to come to the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Faith with out obedience is not going to avail anyone.
Quote c.moore
That is very true JustAChristian baptism is of the bible and I agree 1000% and I advise every christian to get water baptized, but I know that the bible poit out and says it`s only a symbol for that which happen in your soul and heart. I love baptism so much that I even go the the mormon baptism sometimes in their church.
you said the right thing hereJustAChristian : You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith.
Look even you see the truth that baptism is only a demonstration
and you know that something has to be already done to give a
demonstration.
the real spiritual baptism that takes place in your heat and spirit , can be shown by the baptism that the baptism is a demonstration that we die in christ, and that we come out of the water in our new life in Christ, and this procedure is taken place in the Spiritual baptism that no one can see accept God , and that is what Counts, that is why beleif is counted for God and the Spiritual baptism is that which get us into heaven.
I thank God you mention baptism as demonstration because this shows that the bible, and my interpretation is of God.
Quote justAchristian
Everyone in the bible that exercised faith, did so by obedience. Find one biblical character that did not and I have no argument.
Quote c.moore
God has no respect of person.
How about the thief on the cross, who did not works ,and didn`t obey any commandment ,and also was not baptized by water.
Quote justAchristian
Being baptized is obeying the command of the Lord (Acts 10:47-49). To have faith is a command of the Lord, and there is no salvation without it, but to exclude all other commands in favor of faith only is without biblical justification and senseless. "Trust and Obey, for theres no other way to be happy in Jesus than to Trust and Obey"
Quote c.moore
Obeying is showing you love toward Jesus, and I do just because I am saved, and because I do because I know I please Jesus with my faith, and put the word of God to action so God can say well done my faithful son
You have it backward to be baptized in water to gain salvation, and you are trying to gain and everlasting life by the grace of God is a gift, not work ,for and not gained ,or obedience.
I obey because I let Jesus guide my life.
A goo dexample of this is like when you put on you coat you guide the coat to go and act the way you want, and when the coat is taken off it does nothing unless you are in the coat.
the same is with Jesus coming into our lives He directs our life to keep the commandments, and obey, because Jesus is now in us, and His grace that He can come in us helps us to do the Word of God, and Jesus want us to get baptized so He direct us to the water, but Jesus only goes into people that have repented,and plead the blood of Jesus according to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 , and as soon as one believe andtrust Jesus jesus comes in and that why people get baptized mainly because of the love and that Jesus walks them to the water.
I hope you can understand this.
A person that is really saved will obey and will get baptized, but not get baptized to get saved. One again I will mention that I agree with Baptism is a command, and I believe that we should and would obey when we love God, and trust Him and if you don`t obey, then you are showing you are still practicing sin, and that what all sinner do is practice sinning.
Let God Bless you
C.moore, The Jews observed Passover once a year, but you observe the"passover" everytime someone answers your post. You constantly passover rational argument and debate for your home spun doctrine of FAITH ONLY.
Quote c.moore
Sorry , but some rational arguments and debate is so heresies I have to pass over, even God doesn`t want here about it because it so false and not from God like this baptism salvation doctrine.
Quote : JustAChristian
The Bible says, "...baptism doeth also NOW SAVE us....NOW SAVE...NOW SAVE... what saves? BAPTISM!!!! When does it save? NOW!!!! How does Baptism now save? By the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16).
Quote c.moore
So the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16) takes effect only when you come out of the H2O, or water; right?
So are you understanding the power of God can`t function unless there is water to clean our sins? I don`t think so.
Quote JustAChristian
"Seeing how you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH....(1 Peter 1:22).
Quote c.moore
I believe that we should, and must obey JustAChristian because I believe this very much :
De:28:1: And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
De:28:2: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
De:28:3: Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
De:28:4: Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
De:28:5: Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
De:28:6: Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Notice, what happen after being obedient and doing the commandments,
BLESSING will come and by obeying you will be BLESSED, but not obeying to get save.
The very same is when we get married, we do all for your partner only because you love them and have a relationship with them and even though people can tell you what to do and act you really don`t need to take lesson from people you have the love in you to do thing automatically for your partner.
It like make sex with your partner, you go by your feeling and you don`t have to obey somebody else instruction on how to make sex to your partner you do it with pleasure, and with your heart because of the relationship and love and that is why you stay faithful and do all you can to show you love the person you are with and other will see that by your works and relatioship that you are in love , or like the christian the bible says let your light so shine before others, and they will see from our doings that we are in love with Jesus Christ , and we obey only because we love Jesus because He first loved us.
You never work for your partner to get them to marry you, or make a show on how you can obey and do what ever they say so you can be a good slave to them, or a good servant, you please your partner by communication, and relationship knowing each other more and more ever day.
So is the relationship with Jesus, and that is what saves us is the love and trust, and faith in Jesus not your works that you can say look at this and look at that,this is not love, that called a grade system ,like going to school, or obeying like being in the army. When I was in the army I hated it because of all the things I had to do, but if I had my choice I would put my heart into certain things without being under pressure, so do you get what the bible is saying?
Quote by JustAChristian
We are told to be baptized. Baptism is of the bible and thus of faith (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Jude 3). This not man's doctrine, this is the bible. You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith. You may not literally say this but deep down, this is what you mean. The big problem you have is that you are among that group that ...are ever learning but never able to come to the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Faith with out obedience is not going to avail anyone.
Quote c.moore
That is very true JustAChristian baptism is of the bible and I agree 1000% and I advise every christian to get water baptized, but I know that the bible poit out and says it`s only a symbol for that which happen in your soul and heart. I love baptism so much that I even go the the mormon baptism sometimes in their church.
you said the right thing hereJustAChristian : You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith.
Look even you see the truth that baptism is only a demonstration
and you know that something has to be already done to give a
demonstration.
the real spiritual baptism that takes place in your heat and spirit , can be shown by the baptism that the baptism is a demonstration that we die in christ, and that we come out of the water in our new life in Christ, and this procedure is taken place in the Spiritual baptism that no one can see accept God , and that is what Counts, that is why beleif is counted for God and the Spiritual baptism is that which get us into heaven.
I thank God you mention baptism as demonstration because this shows that the bible, and my interpretation is of God.
Quote justAchristian
Everyone in the bible that exercised faith, did so by obedience. Find one biblical character that did not and I have no argument.
Quote c.moore
God has no respect of person.
How about the thief on the cross, who did not works ,and didn`t obey any commandment ,and also was not baptized by water.
Quote justAchristian
Being baptized is obeying the command of the Lord (Acts 10:47-49). To have faith is a command of the Lord, and there is no salvation without it, but to exclude all other commands in favor of faith only is without biblical justification and senseless. "Trust and Obey, for theres no other way to be happy in Jesus than to Trust and Obey"
Quote c.moore
Obeying is showing you love toward Jesus, and I do just because I am saved, and because I do because I know I please Jesus with my faith, and put the word of God to action so God can say well done my faithful son
You have it backward to be baptized in water to gain salvation, and you are trying to gain and everlasting life by the grace of God is a gift, not work ,for and not gained ,or obedience.
I obey because I let Jesus guide my life.
A goo dexample of this is like when you put on you coat you guide the coat to go and act the way you want, and when the coat is taken off it does nothing unless you are in the coat.
the same is with Jesus coming into our lives He directs our life to keep the commandments, and obey, because Jesus is now in us, and His grace that He can come in us helps us to do the Word of God, and Jesus want us to get baptized so He direct us to the water, but Jesus only goes into people that have repented,and plead the blood of Jesus according to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 , and as soon as one believe andtrust Jesus jesus comes in and that why people get baptized mainly because of the love and that Jesus walks them to the water.
I hope you can understand this.
A person that is really saved will obey and will get baptized, but not get baptized to get saved. One again I will mention that I agree with Baptism is a command, and I believe that we should and would obey when we love God, and trust Him and if you don`t obey, then you are showing you are still practicing sin, and that what all sinner do is practice sinning.
Let God Bless you
JustAChristian
New member
Responding to c.moore
Responding to c.moore
The reason you pass over them is that you don't know how to deal with them. Your manner of debate tells me that you are very irrational and contradictory. I will show you later.
No, it is when we rise from baptism. You want to keep inserting "water' when I am dealing with baptism. You want to gain a sympathetic following by distorting what I have said. Your post is included so people can see how you distort.
Water does not cleanse us of sins. I have never contended this and do not presently contend this. Baptism cleanses by the blood of Jesus Christ in obedience to the command to be baptized (1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16). Stick to my conclusions if you are going to quote me.
I can't believe that you said that. I just can't believe you'd say such a thing!! You said, ..."but not obeying to get saved". First you say, "I believe we must and should obey JustAChristian, I believe that very much... Well, why would you make a statement like that. The only reason to obey is because we love the Lord and seek to do his will. He commanded us to be baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Don't you love the Lord enough to do his will and obey his commandments? Jesus will only reward those who obey (Heb. 5:8-9). Believing in the Lord (having faith) is essential in order to be saved (Eph. 2:8-9). But, the way you approach it, faith is non-obedience.
Kevin has already pointed out to you that you are "comparing apples and oranges" Stick to the subject and get off of feelings and speculation. Jesus said, Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32). Salvation is through the truth, not feelings.
You can not find one statement that says Baptism is a symbol. Not one!!! You don't love baptism. The only thing you love is your distorted conclusion of Faith Only for salvation.
You can't be saved like the thief on the cross, because you and I are under a different commission. We are to obey the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Gospel which commands baptism for the remission of sins.
You can't claim to be a faithful son until you have done "all the will of God" which includes being baptized for the remission of sins.
You make this statement and deny the great commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) which includes disciples being baptized for the remission of sins? How ironic.
More "apples and oranges". Stick to the subject of baptism for the remission of sins.
Your analogy of Acts 2:38 is senseless. Peter did not say, repent and pleed the blood of Christ. He said repent and be baptized. You have no relationship outside of obedience to Christ. This is like say you are a child of God and yet not in the family. The Lord adds to the family the saved, but in order to be saved one must be baptized.
A person is not "really saved" until he denies himself and takes up the cross of Christ in obeying the word. The truth will make you free (John 8:32). Baptism is a part of the whole truth and must be obeyed before there is cleansing of sins and salvation eternally.
JustAChristian
Responding to c.moore
Originally posted by c.moore
Quote by JustAChristian
C.moore, The Jews observed Passover once a year, but you observe the"passover" everytime someone answers your post. You constantly passover rational argument and debate for your home spun doctrine of FAITH ONLY.
Quote c.moore
Sorry , but some rational arguments and debate is so heresies I have to pass over, even God doesn`t want here about it because it so false and not from God like this baptism salvation doctrine.
Quote : JustAChristian
The Bible says, "...baptism doeth also NOW SAVE us....NOW SAVE...NOW SAVE... what saves? BAPTISM!!!! When does it save? NOW!!!! How does Baptism now save? By the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16).
Quote c.moore
So the power of God in the clensing of sins (Acts 22:16) takes effect only when you come out of the H2O, or water; right?
So are you understanding the power of God can`t function unless there is water to clean our sins? I don`t think so.
Quote JustAChristian
"Seeing how you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH....(1 Peter 1:22).
Quote c.moore
I believe that we should, and must obey JustAChristian because I believe this very much :
De:28:1: And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
De:28:2: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
De:28:3: Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
De:28:4: Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
De:28:5: Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
De:28:6: Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Notice, what happen after being obedient and doing the commandments,
BLESSING will come and by obeying you will be BLESSED, but not obeying to get save.
The very same is when we get married, we do all for your partner only because you love them and have a relationship with them and even though people can tell you what to do and act you really don`t need to take lesson from people you have the love in you to do thing automatically for your partner.
It like make sex with your partner, you go by your feeling and you don`t have to obey somebody else instruction on how to make sex to your partner you do it with pleasure, and with your heart because of the relationship and love and that is why you stay faithful and do all you can to show you love the person you are with and other will see that by your works and relatioship that you are in love , or like the christian the bible says let your light so shine before others, and they will see from our doings that we are in love with Jesus Christ , and we obey only because we love Jesus because He first loved us.
You never work for your partner to get them to marry you, or make a show on how you can obey and do what ever they say so you can be a good slave to them, or a good servant, you please your partner by communication, and relationship knowing each other more and more ever day.
So is the relationship with Jesus, and that is what saves us is the love and trust, and faith in Jesus not your works that you can say look at this and look at that,this is not love, that called a grade system ,like going to school, or obeying like being in the army. When I was in the army I hated it because of all the things I had to do, but if I had my choice I would put my heart into certain things without being under pressure, so do you get what the bible is saying?
Quote by JustAChristian
We are told to be baptized. Baptism is of the bible and thus of faith (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Jude 3). This not man's doctrine, this is the bible. You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith. You may not literally say this but deep down, this is what you mean. The big problem you have is that you are among that group that ...are ever learning but never able to come to the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Faith with out obedience is not going to avail anyone.
Quote c.moore
That is very true JustAChristian baptism is of the bible and I agree 1000% and I advise every christian to get water baptized, but I know that the bible poit out and says it`s only a symbol for that which happen in your soul and heart. I love baptism so much that I even go the the mormon baptism sometimes in their church.
you said the right thing hereJustAChristian : You talk like baptism is not of faith, and that if one is baptized he or she is not being faithful or demonstrating faith.
Look even you see the truth that baptism is only a demonstration
and you know that something has to be already done to give a
demonstration.
the real spiritual baptism that takes place in your heat and spirit , can be shown by the baptism that the baptism is a demonstration that we die in christ, and that we come out of the water in our new life in Christ, and this procedure is taken place in the Spiritual baptism that no one can see accept God , and that is what Counts, that is why beleif is counted for God and the Spiritual baptism is that which get us into heaven.
I thank God you mention baptism as demonstration because this shows that the bible, and my interpretation is of God.
Quote justAchristian
Everyone in the bible that exercised faith, did so by obedience. Find one biblical character that did not and I have no argument.
Quote c.moore
God has no respect of person.
How about the thief on the cross, who did not works ,and didn`t obey any commandment ,and also was not baptized by water.
Quote justAchristian
Being baptized is obeying the command of the Lord (Acts 10:47-49). To have faith is a command of the Lord, and there is no salvation without it, but to exclude all other commands in favor of faith only is without biblical justification and senseless. "Trust and Obey, for theres no other way to be happy in Jesus than to Trust and Obey"
Quote c.moore
Obeying is showing you love toward Jesus, and I do just because I am saved, and because I do because I know I please Jesus with my faith, and put the word of God to action so God can say well done my faithful son
You have it backward to be baptized in water to gain salvation, and you are trying to gain and everlasting life by the grace of God is a gift, not work ,for and not gained ,or obedience.
I obey because I let Jesus guide my life.
A goo dexample of this is like when you put on you coat you guide the coat to go and act the way you want, and when the coat is taken off it does nothing unless you are in the coat.
the same is with Jesus coming into our lives He directs our life to keep the commandments, and obey, because Jesus is now in us, and His grace that He can come in us helps us to do the Word of God, and Jesus want us to get baptized so He direct us to the water, but Jesus only goes into people that have repented,and plead the blood of Jesus according to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 , and as soon as one believe andtrust Jesus jesus comes in and that why people get baptized mainly because of the love and that Jesus walks them to the water.
I hope you can understand this.
A person that is really saved will obey and will get baptized, but not get baptized to get saved. One again I will mention that I agree with Baptism is a command, and I believe that we should and would obey when we love God, and trust Him and if you don`t obey, then you are showing you are still practicing sin, and that what all sinner do is practice sinning.
Let God Bless you
The reason you pass over them is that you don't know how to deal with them. Your manner of debate tells me that you are very irrational and contradictory. I will show you later.
No, it is when we rise from baptism. You want to keep inserting "water' when I am dealing with baptism. You want to gain a sympathetic following by distorting what I have said. Your post is included so people can see how you distort.
Water does not cleanse us of sins. I have never contended this and do not presently contend this. Baptism cleanses by the blood of Jesus Christ in obedience to the command to be baptized (1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16). Stick to my conclusions if you are going to quote me.
I can't believe that you said that. I just can't believe you'd say such a thing!! You said, ..."but not obeying to get saved". First you say, "I believe we must and should obey JustAChristian, I believe that very much... Well, why would you make a statement like that. The only reason to obey is because we love the Lord and seek to do his will. He commanded us to be baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Don't you love the Lord enough to do his will and obey his commandments? Jesus will only reward those who obey (Heb. 5:8-9). Believing in the Lord (having faith) is essential in order to be saved (Eph. 2:8-9). But, the way you approach it, faith is non-obedience.
Kevin has already pointed out to you that you are "comparing apples and oranges" Stick to the subject and get off of feelings and speculation. Jesus said, Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32). Salvation is through the truth, not feelings.
You can not find one statement that says Baptism is a symbol. Not one!!! You don't love baptism. The only thing you love is your distorted conclusion of Faith Only for salvation.
You can't be saved like the thief on the cross, because you and I are under a different commission. We are to obey the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Gospel which commands baptism for the remission of sins.
You can't claim to be a faithful son until you have done "all the will of God" which includes being baptized for the remission of sins.
You make this statement and deny the great commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) which includes disciples being baptized for the remission of sins? How ironic.
More "apples and oranges". Stick to the subject of baptism for the remission of sins.
Your analogy of Acts 2:38 is senseless. Peter did not say, repent and pleed the blood of Christ. He said repent and be baptized. You have no relationship outside of obedience to Christ. This is like say you are a child of God and yet not in the family. The Lord adds to the family the saved, but in order to be saved one must be baptized.
A person is not "really saved" until he denies himself and takes up the cross of Christ in obeying the word. The truth will make you free (John 8:32). Baptism is a part of the whole truth and must be obeyed before there is cleansing of sins and salvation eternally.
JustAChristian
HopeofGlory
New member
JustAChristian
My replies are bold.
Craig, you don't have the concept of what you are talking about. The flesh here is not talking about the skin and muscle of a person's body but that which if of a temporal nature. Temporal things do not profit unto eternal life. Being baptized for the remission of sins is not a temporal thing. It has total spiritual application and thus profits completely. Jesus made baptizm a condition of salvation (Mark 16:16) The Calvinist try to dispute it, but when all is said and done "...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is still there.
I believe the "spirit" words of Jesus Christ and understand that they are "life eternal". It is easy to understand for those who have no confidence in their flesh. Temporal things are seen with the eye and are NOT eternal as is the rite of water baptism.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Your effectual baptism is seen with the eye therefore it is temporal and is not of a spiritual nature. Your argument doesn't hold water and the simplicity of the truth of Christ will stand firm against your perversions.
But the natural man (trust in their works of the flesh) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are "spiritually" discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14 (KJV)
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1 Cor. 2:15 (KJV)
It is the "spirit that quickeneth"; the "flesh profiteth nothing": the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of "you" that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)
He that "believeth and is baptized" shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)
Mark 16:16 is a reference to spiritual baptism of which is not seen with the eye (eternal) and is an operation of God (Col 2:12).
The Baptist's remission message (Mark 1 :4) was temporal (of the flesh) and it would be replaced with a eternal message.
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)
But "I receive not testimony from man": but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have "greater witness than that of John": for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
John's witness was water baptism for remission (Mark 1:4) and the "greater" witness of Christ is His shed blood at the cross for remission (Matt 26:28). The "spirit words" of His shed blood at the cross supercedes water for remission. We don't need two messages for remission and "two baptisms" are NOT permitted.
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
Two will never equal one and the "words of Christ" define right doctrine not the "words of men".
Quote:
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
This is a very good verse. Sin came into the world because of man's failure to obey. Salvation comes as a result of one's (Jesus Christ) obedience to God. Another scripture that I like is "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps" 1Peter 2:21 We have a responsibility to be faithful in following Jesus Christ. This begins with becoming disciples through the teaching and baptism of the apostolic commission (Matthew 28:18-20). There is nothing that I can do for myself spiritually unto a benefit unless it is called for from the word fo God. I can't follow a doctrine, commandment or example that is not directed from the scriptures (2 Tim 3:15), and profit one whit!.
The failure of man to obey the law sent Christ to the cross to remove the law and with it came a new message for remission of sins. You hold the old for remission and by doing so corrupt the new making it of none effect and turn the truth of God into a lie. Your flesh or your works of your flesh will profit you nothing! There is a greater witness than that of John's for remission of sins. The message is eternal remission and the baptism is an operation of God not an operation of men. Christ never commanded "water baptism" and it is not a "new testament" message for remission.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 1 Pet. 2:7 (KJV)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which "stumble at the word", being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Pet. 2:8 (KJV)
Quote:
Turn from your wicked "works of righteousness" and believe in the shed blood of Christ for remission and receive eternal life.
I have the fullest confidence in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for clensing. This cleansing takes place in baptism (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:15). Where does your so-called cleansing take place?
If your confidence was "in Christ" you would realize water baptism is not require for eternal remission. Your confidence is in your works and your ability to endure afterward. My confidence is in Christ totally and completely without adding my own merit therefore I am at rest in the righteousness of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the author and finisher of my faith. I was washed in the blood of the Lamb when I believed that it was His death that freed me from sin. I was baptized by His Spirit into His body and received His righteousness imputed to me when I believed He died in my place. His righteousness is mine and He fulfilled all righteousness therefore in Him I have fulfilled "all" righteousness.
Was He not water baptized and did He not obey the law completely without one offence? Yes praise God He did and He did it for me a sinner who could not please God. It is His blood that covers my sin and water baptism can't even touch it!
Quote:
"works of righteousness"
Craig, what is your definition of "works of righteousness"?
Righteous works of men who believe "their obedience" will merit eternal remission.
Quote:
"Not by works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
I believe we can not earn salvation by meritorious works, but I do believe that Christ has commanded things unto salvation, such as faith, repentance, confession, baptism and righteous living. If you call these meritorious works then I believe you have a poor concept of works.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and it requires a sacrifice. This sacrifice must be spotless in order to be acceptable to God. Nothing else is required for salvation but this spotless sacrifice. All other offerings were temporal and no longer accepted by the Father. Baptism is an operation of God therefore is can not be a work. Salvation is a gift of God to all who accept Jesus Christ and His finished work at Calvary. With this is the understanding that we are sinners otherwise no need for a Saviour. The confession is, I am a sinner. The confession can not be made without repentance or a change of mind to recognize that one is a lost sinner in need of a Saviour. The word of salvation is the message of the cross that His blood was shed for remission of our sins. God baptizes "all" into the body of Christ who accept this truth.
For by one Spirit are we "all" baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Obedience to works gave temporal remission until Christ suffered the cross and eternal remission was paid for with His blood. Now it is by the obedience of one that many are made righteous.
Quote:
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)
Grace is the free gift of God given without merit. Without God's extension of Grace no one could be saved from sins. It was his plan from the foundation of the earth that man's sins would be forgiven if he exercised obedient faith (Hebrews 11:1ff). All that are obedient in faithfulness is rewarded with salvation in the life to come. Being baptized for the remission of sins is faithfulness to the commandment (Acts 2:38).
The Pentecostal experience is VOID of the message of the new testament for remission and it was strictly a Jewish message. Gentiles were not accepted and obedience to water baptism contained in the law was commanded and required to receive the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:32). Peter was still jealous of the law as they all were. The Holy Ghost was still teaching Peter after Pentecost and instructing him out of the law. Peter refused to go to the Gentile Cornelius until God commanded him to do so. Before Peter could command water baptism the Holy Ghost fell thus witnessing acceptance of Gentiles without the need for water baptism or the law. Peter's conversion to the new testament was not complete at Pentecost.
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Peter's Pentecostal message for remission (Acts 2:38) after the cross is the same as the Baptist's (Mark 1:4) before the cross.
We have a greater witness for remission and when Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing it superceded the law and the witness of water baptism for remission as John the Baptist taught. This new testament for remission brougth with it a better hope.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:19 (KJV)
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Heb. 7:22 (KJV)
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb. 7:25 (KJV)
His intercession forever ensures eternal remission and with it we receive the security that only faith in the righteousness of Christ can give. "ALL" honor and glory will be given to Christ Jesus because is the only faithful and truth witness of God.
In Christ
Craig
My replies are bold.
Craig, you don't have the concept of what you are talking about. The flesh here is not talking about the skin and muscle of a person's body but that which if of a temporal nature. Temporal things do not profit unto eternal life. Being baptized for the remission of sins is not a temporal thing. It has total spiritual application and thus profits completely. Jesus made baptizm a condition of salvation (Mark 16:16) The Calvinist try to dispute it, but when all is said and done "...he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is still there.
I believe the "spirit" words of Jesus Christ and understand that they are "life eternal". It is easy to understand for those who have no confidence in their flesh. Temporal things are seen with the eye and are NOT eternal as is the rite of water baptism.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Your effectual baptism is seen with the eye therefore it is temporal and is not of a spiritual nature. Your argument doesn't hold water and the simplicity of the truth of Christ will stand firm against your perversions.
But the natural man (trust in their works of the flesh) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are "spiritually" discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14 (KJV)
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1 Cor. 2:15 (KJV)
It is the "spirit that quickeneth"; the "flesh profiteth nothing": the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of "you" that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)
He that "believeth and is baptized" shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)
Mark 16:16 is a reference to spiritual baptism of which is not seen with the eye (eternal) and is an operation of God (Col 2:12).
The Baptist's remission message (Mark 1 :4) was temporal (of the flesh) and it would be replaced with a eternal message.
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)
But "I receive not testimony from man": but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have "greater witness than that of John": for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
John's witness was water baptism for remission (Mark 1:4) and the "greater" witness of Christ is His shed blood at the cross for remission (Matt 26:28). The "spirit words" of His shed blood at the cross supercedes water for remission. We don't need two messages for remission and "two baptisms" are NOT permitted.
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
Two will never equal one and the "words of Christ" define right doctrine not the "words of men".
Quote:
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
This is a very good verse. Sin came into the world because of man's failure to obey. Salvation comes as a result of one's (Jesus Christ) obedience to God. Another scripture that I like is "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps" 1Peter 2:21 We have a responsibility to be faithful in following Jesus Christ. This begins with becoming disciples through the teaching and baptism of the apostolic commission (Matthew 28:18-20). There is nothing that I can do for myself spiritually unto a benefit unless it is called for from the word fo God. I can't follow a doctrine, commandment or example that is not directed from the scriptures (2 Tim 3:15), and profit one whit!.
The failure of man to obey the law sent Christ to the cross to remove the law and with it came a new message for remission of sins. You hold the old for remission and by doing so corrupt the new making it of none effect and turn the truth of God into a lie. Your flesh or your works of your flesh will profit you nothing! There is a greater witness than that of John's for remission of sins. The message is eternal remission and the baptism is an operation of God not an operation of men. Christ never commanded "water baptism" and it is not a "new testament" message for remission.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 1 Pet. 2:7 (KJV)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which "stumble at the word", being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Pet. 2:8 (KJV)
Quote:
Turn from your wicked "works of righteousness" and believe in the shed blood of Christ for remission and receive eternal life.
I have the fullest confidence in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for clensing. This cleansing takes place in baptism (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:15). Where does your so-called cleansing take place?
If your confidence was "in Christ" you would realize water baptism is not require for eternal remission. Your confidence is in your works and your ability to endure afterward. My confidence is in Christ totally and completely without adding my own merit therefore I am at rest in the righteousness of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the author and finisher of my faith. I was washed in the blood of the Lamb when I believed that it was His death that freed me from sin. I was baptized by His Spirit into His body and received His righteousness imputed to me when I believed He died in my place. His righteousness is mine and He fulfilled all righteousness therefore in Him I have fulfilled "all" righteousness.
Was He not water baptized and did He not obey the law completely without one offence? Yes praise God He did and He did it for me a sinner who could not please God. It is His blood that covers my sin and water baptism can't even touch it!
Quote:
"works of righteousness"
Craig, what is your definition of "works of righteousness"?
Righteous works of men who believe "their obedience" will merit eternal remission.
Quote:
"Not by works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
I believe we can not earn salvation by meritorious works, but I do believe that Christ has commanded things unto salvation, such as faith, repentance, confession, baptism and righteous living. If you call these meritorious works then I believe you have a poor concept of works.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and it requires a sacrifice. This sacrifice must be spotless in order to be acceptable to God. Nothing else is required for salvation but this spotless sacrifice. All other offerings were temporal and no longer accepted by the Father. Baptism is an operation of God therefore is can not be a work. Salvation is a gift of God to all who accept Jesus Christ and His finished work at Calvary. With this is the understanding that we are sinners otherwise no need for a Saviour. The confession is, I am a sinner. The confession can not be made without repentance or a change of mind to recognize that one is a lost sinner in need of a Saviour. The word of salvation is the message of the cross that His blood was shed for remission of our sins. God baptizes "all" into the body of Christ who accept this truth.
For by one Spirit are we "all" baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Obedience to works gave temporal remission until Christ suffered the cross and eternal remission was paid for with His blood. Now it is by the obedience of one that many are made righteous.
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That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)
Grace is the free gift of God given without merit. Without God's extension of Grace no one could be saved from sins. It was his plan from the foundation of the earth that man's sins would be forgiven if he exercised obedient faith (Hebrews 11:1ff). All that are obedient in faithfulness is rewarded with salvation in the life to come. Being baptized for the remission of sins is faithfulness to the commandment (Acts 2:38).
The Pentecostal experience is VOID of the message of the new testament for remission and it was strictly a Jewish message. Gentiles were not accepted and obedience to water baptism contained in the law was commanded and required to receive the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:32). Peter was still jealous of the law as they all were. The Holy Ghost was still teaching Peter after Pentecost and instructing him out of the law. Peter refused to go to the Gentile Cornelius until God commanded him to do so. Before Peter could command water baptism the Holy Ghost fell thus witnessing acceptance of Gentiles without the need for water baptism or the law. Peter's conversion to the new testament was not complete at Pentecost.
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Peter's Pentecostal message for remission (Acts 2:38) after the cross is the same as the Baptist's (Mark 1:4) before the cross.
We have a greater witness for remission and when Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing it superceded the law and the witness of water baptism for remission as John the Baptist taught. This new testament for remission brougth with it a better hope.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:19 (KJV)
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Heb. 7:22 (KJV)
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb. 7:25 (KJV)
His intercession forever ensures eternal remission and with it we receive the security that only faith in the righteousness of Christ can give. "ALL" honor and glory will be given to Christ Jesus because is the only faithful and truth witness of God.
In Christ
Craig