The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[godspell]

On another note... (not regarding my last post)

On another note... (not regarding my last post)

I was baptised at an early age, like many Christians I know of. This first sacrament is often given to children of 1 year or less of age.

Now, I am quite unsure, as an adult, as to whether or not that should really constitute salvation? Do I enter salvation without my say in the matter? I really don't believe that there is a change to my physical make-up, or even to my soul at that age when I do not understand what is going on.

Skip forward in time: The time of my Confirmation. In this, the third of my Sacraments received, I was older, approx 10 years of age. At this time I was asked to take part in accepting Jesus as my saviour. At this time, I was aware of what I was doing. At this time, I believe that I took a much more tangible and meaningful step toward 'salvation', than I did when I underwent something I was not aware of.

So I ask you - Is baptism really enough for salvation? I mean - salvation without any work on my part would seem a pretty cheap and easy way out of eternal damnation.

No, I believe it has a lot more to do with following the teachings of Christ and actually BEING a Christian, not simply undergoing a process as an infant.

 

[firechyld]

*grin* Even I've been baptised. Twice. Two different Christian denominations. I've also had a pagan naming ceremony, a more traditional naming ceremony and an "awakening".

My family liked covering their bases.

firechyld

 

[godspell]

Yeah, but you're demon spawn, anyway. No saving you.

 

[firechyld]

Bah to you! Your hell, you burn in it.

Besides, if I'm doomed to doomness, I'm taking you with me. I'm sure I can find a lot of people on here who'll tell you you're doomed as well for "tolerating" my me-ness.

firechyld

PS: I'd advise everyone against inviting their spouse to join TOL. You end up in discourses like this, whilst sitting three meters apart.

 

[Freak]

Carri-

The Scriptures are filled with examples of belief in Jesus Christ for ones salvation is enough.

Let's look at- John 3:16 for starters. Jesus said a belief in Him would keep one from perishing and attaining eternal life.

Look with me to John 5:24 where Christ again clearly taught that belief in Him was enough to attain eternal life.

Let's look again to John 11:25 where Jesus promises that those who believe in Him would not die but would rather live.

Was Jesus mistaken by not stating baptism was needed for eternal life? I do not think so. Jesus, who is eternal God, understood what He was saying. He was not misleading anyone when He said belief in Him was enough. The question is-Do you believe what Jesus said in these verses?

 

[Freak]

Carri-

Baptism is the next step after being justified before God. So of course Jesus said that those whom believed and were baptized after attaing salvation were truly saved. Look at what Jesus said in Mark 16:17-but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Note there was no mention of baptism for being condemned. Belief in Christ or the lack thereof is what decides your eternal destiny not some water.

 

[JustAChristian]

Are We Having a Debate or What?!!

Are We Having a Debate or What?!!

JustaChristian,

I read your posts with great interest. The English lesson however proved no point and it sure did not deal with my stance that Jesus, the Person, is enough for ones Salvation. The Apostle Paul made it clear again when speaking of having righteousness, he says it comes by "...faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith" (Philippians 3:9). Notice righteousness is found not in water baptism for water cannot and will not make you righteous only eternal Jesus can make one righteous. That can only be attained by faith according to this passage not by water.

Really, the more you say the more you convict yourself. Earlier you wanted Jesus only and then you wanted his blood. Now you want Jesus only and to have faith in him. What is it going to be Jesus only or Jesus plus something else? Your greatest problem lies in the fact that you want face facts. You didn't try to cast off my argument on the point of a synecdoche. You did not even try to show that such was not a feasible argument. Debate is presenting evidence and drawing conclusions based on that evidence. I see no evidence only conclusion. I have never said nor present evidence to the affirmative that water will make you righteous. It is not the WATER that saves--you see, I said it, that is by conclusion, now get over it!!! Salvation comes by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Any 1st year Bible student can see that, but what is needed to understand is, what is ment by "through faith". Through faith is an act on our part. God gives grace as we express our faith. I can not save myself from sins. Only God can save. Christ told the way to obtain the grace (Mark 16:16; Hebrews 5:8-9). I will leave this post with the immortal words of James the Lord's brother "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:18-19 KJV). Are the demons going to be saved?

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Freak--

If simply believing is just enough for salvation then why does Paul tell the Church at Corinth not to associate with bretheren who are sexually immoral, greedy, slanderous, practice idolatry, drunkards, or swindelers? In 1Cor6:10 he tells them that none of these people will inherit the kingdom of God. This makes it clear that He expects us to do--or in this case NOT do--certain things in order to inherit His kingdom. Believing in Jesus does not make us exempt from doing ALL that he commands.

It must be very comforting for you to be able to pick and choose the verses in the Bible that support your view, while excluding those that don't, without it bothering your conscience. I wonder if you follow recipes the same way when you cook? You know, if you bake a cake and you decide that you are not going to put in any baking soda because you don't like the taste of it, but then you go ahead and add three times the salt because you really like the taste of salty foods, you end up with something to eat that is really quite unacceptable. The same is true with God's Word. You cannot just leave out the parts you don't like and overemphasize the parts you do, or He will not find you acceptable.

Carri

Carri,
Freak does't have any verses that support his view. Remember, the sum of anything is the whole of its parts. The New Testament teaches that a man is saved by grace through faith. Unless a person is expressing his faith by obedience to the will of God in Christ Jesus, he is not saved. Faith alone will not save and this is what Freak believes -- at least he is trying to express that , but he doesn't even do a good job of that. He wants Jesus only, then he wants Jesus plus something else. There is not a single verse that supports his stance.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

JustaChristian,

No verses huh? Just go back and re-read my post Carrie where I spoke of a number of verses that proved that the belief in Christ is all that is necessary to be saved.

You are getting justification and santification mixed up. Justification is a one time act where sancitfication (the conforming to the Person of Jesus Christ) is a life time journey. To be justified one only needs faith. Sanification is a life of obedience to God.

 

[JustAChristian]

JustaChristian,

No verses huh? Just go back and re-read my post Carrie where I spoke of a number of verses that proved that the belief in Christ is all that is necessary to be saved.

You are getting justification and santification mixed up. Justification is a one time act where sancitfication (the conforming to the Person of Jesus Christ) is a life time journey. To be justified one only needs faith. Sanification is a life of obedience to God.

Freak,
You know you can't find a single verse that says justification and sanctification come at different times. Anyway, that is not the current debate. Lets stay on the current debate. Show me a verse that proves salvation by faith alone. i have shown you several that show one must act upon the will of God in Christ for salvation. Lets don't dodge by telling me to read Carri's sections. I want it fresh and now! One! only One! Faith Only! Give me only one verse and I "don't have a leg to stand on!

JustAChristian

 

[carri]

Freak--

Here are the verses you pointed out:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;"

Just where is that qualifying word I asked to see??? I don't see anywhere where he says that believing is ALL you have to do, or the ONLY thing you have to do.

Another thing: it would be a waste of words for Christ to add on "and whoever isn't baptised will be condemned" in Mark 16:16. Obviously no one would be baptised if they didn't believe, so that point goes without saying. I might add that I have seen this pointed out to you many, many times. And why did you add the words "after attaing salvation"? You know very well that those words are not in that verse. You cannot just add them to suit your purpose.

Christ said that if we love him we will keep his commandments. So if we aren't baptised then we show we don't love him because it is something he commanded us to do. Are you telling me that to be saved I have to believe in Jesus, but I don't have to love Him?

Something else: You stated that justification was a one-time act. Guess what baptism is?

Carri

 

[carri]

Godspell--

Yes, I have read your reply. No, I am not just responding to Freak.

No, baptism is not really enough for salvation. It's not even close--just the beginning, really.

I, being raised a Catholic, was "baptised" as an infant. I thought everything was taken care of as far as needing to be baptised goes--until I turned about 30. That's when I started actually reading the Bible. I found out one of many horrible truths--you actually have to believe and then get baptised! I realized that the so-called "baptism" as an infant was a meaningless ceremony.

Not only do we have to believe and be baptised to be saved, then we have to live a godly life. There are a lot of people who profess faith and get baptised who later go on to steal, commit adultery, and become drunkards. 1Cor6:9-10 says that none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. When people say that all you have to do to be saved is believe, they seem to forget that you also have to live a godly life. Is it any different to say you have to be baptised to be saved than to say you must not live a sinful life to be saved? They are both conditions Christ made that go beyond just believing.



Carri

 

[Ian Day]

Freak,
Show me a verse that proves salvation by faith alone. i have shown you several that show one must act upon the will of God in Christ for salvation. Lets don't dodge by telling me to read Carri's sections. I want it fresh and now! One! only One! Faith Only! Give me only one verse and I "don't have a leg to stand on!

JustAChristian

The blind beggar did NOTHING but cry for mercy:
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.



Dare you argue that to be justified is not to be saved ???

What works need to be added to faith in order to be justified ??

Paul clearly sees that to be justified is to be righteous in God's sight.

James' understanding of justified is to prove one's faith by obedience. Faith which cannot be demonstrated by works is of course dead, & Paul would agree. (Romans 6)

James is not contradicting Paul (or Freak ) he is saying that if you have saving faith it will show.

If you refuse baptism, or continue in sin, then don't expect people to see your faith. BUT there is a vital difference between justification by faith in CHrist, apart from any works (for at the moment of regeneration & salvation no good works have been done) and the living out of that new life in Christ.

As Paul eloquently writes:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


There is an emphasis in the Scriptures on spritiual life - new birth, quickening of the dead, etc. THe moment of salvation is at that point of spiritual life, when we realise our desperate state of sin, and that Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. At that point we are said to repent & be converted or repent & turn to God. The new life is obedient to God, but the obedience does not save. The only obedience which saves is the obedience of Christ.

 

[Freak]

Carri-

It is apparent you are totally ignorant when it comes to Biblical Theology. Justification is a legal term used by the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:1 where he states that "Having been justified by faith..." Past tense. Note the word "been" it is a past event. One only needs to be justified one time. When you are justified you are in right standing before God. In fact the Apostle Paul goes on in that passage to state that we attain "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Note again no mention of water baptism. Peace with God comes through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ not by water as you propose.

I believe believers in Christ should get baptized after being justified by faith. But this is done after conversion not for conversion. For remember water is just that water but however Jesus is able to save one from their sins.

The distinction is quite clear for all to see.

I believe Christ is all we need for salvation for He is God. He is able to save without using anything else.

You, on the other hand believe that one is justified by some water. Jesus is just not good enough; you need to add water to the picture.

I'm so thankful Jesus is my salvation and not the water.

 

[kiwimac]

Freak,

I love to see you ministering in a loving & compassionate way! The evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit is there is your post, your kindness, your gentleness, your self-control, ah....

Kiwimac

 

[JustAChristian]

Ian Add A Post.

Ian Add A Post.

The blind beggar did NOTHING but cry for mercy:
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Ian,

Welcome back. I thought maybe you'd bailed out after my last post. By the way, are you going to answer the point about sowing to the spirit? Everlasting life comes after sowing to the spirit (Gal. 6:8). Anyway, welcome back!

Was the blind man saved from his sins? The Greek word her is "soozon" and also means "to be made whole". Why did't the translators of the KJV use "made you whole" as they did in nine other occasions. (Strong's). Think there was some bias translation here? Maybe! Weak argument, Ian, shame on you.
JustAChristian

********************************

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ian,

Is believe here faith only? What about repentance? Were these believers justified if they failed to repent? How could this be? Is it possible for "believe" to also include the commend to repent? Did you read my argument on a synecdoche that I gave FreaK? Check it out.
JustAChristian

****************************

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ian,

I'll amen that, but you have to show that justification by faith does not include the requirement to repent, confess Christ as God's son, and to be baptized for the remission of sins, and then the requirement to "...sow to the Spirit" (Gal. 6:9).
JustAChristian

***************************

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ian,

See my remarks above.
JustAChristian

****************************

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Ian,

Through faith. Is that a work on our part? (John 6:29). If it is, then it is not by faith alone. I see Paul telling Timothy that salvations comes after an action on our part, don't you?
JustAChristian

****************************


Dare you argue that to be justified is not to be saved ???

Ian,

Don't think I have.
JustAChristian

*****************************

What works need to be added to faith in order to be justified ??

Ian,

The work of God (John 6:29).
JustAChristian

******************************


Paul clearly sees that to be justified is to be righteous in God's sight.

Ian,

No argument here!!
JustAChristian

******************************

James' understanding of justified is to prove one's faith by obedience. Faith which cannot be demonstrated by works is of course dead, & Paul would agree. (Romans 6)

Ian,

Amen!
JustAChristian

******************************

James is not contradicting Paul (or Freak ) he is saying that if you have saving faith it will show.

Ian,

How will it show?
JustAChristian

If you refuse baptism, or continue in sin, then don't expect people to see your faith. BUT there is a vital difference between justification by faith in CHrist, apart from any works (for at the moment of regeneration & salvation no good works have been done) and the living out of that new life in Christ.

Ian,

When did you "...sow to the Spirit" and reap eternal life? (Gal. 6:9).
JustAChristian

********************************

As Paul eloquently writes:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ian,

That what I have been saying all along. The question that you want answer is can you prove by the New Testament that belief or faith does not include works of God that we are called to do before we can be eternally saved?
JustAChristian

***********************************


There is an emphasis in the Scriptures on spritiual life - new birth, quickening of the dead, etc. THe moment of salvation is at that point of spiritual life, when we realise our desperate state of sin, and that Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. At that point we are said to repent & be converted or repent & turn to God. The new life is obedient to God, but the obedience does not save. The only obedience which saves is the obedience of Christ.

Ian,

What is this "obedience of Christ"? Does it require us to hear the gospel? (Rom. 10:17). Does it require us to repent (Luke 13:3). Does it require us to confess Christ as God Son? (Acts 8:37 KJV; Matthew 10:32). Does this include the obedience of immersion into Christ? (Romans 6:5; Gal. 3:26-27). Is Jesus Christ going to forgive us of sin before we have come to him in the obedience of His commandments?m (John 14:15).

JustAChristian

************************************

 

[carri]

Freak--

I was simply using your definition of justification being a one-time deal to compare it to baptism. I could care less what the word actually means. That's not what we were discussing.

So where are those qualifying words: ONLY or ALL? Do you always just go off the subject or ignore it when you can't produce what is asked?

I DO NOT believe one is justified by "some water". I believe that in order to get to heaven we must do ALL that Christ commands. You still haven't addressed the issue regarding whether we must obey His commands in order to be saved. I am not just talking about baptism here, but ALL His commands.

Here is an illustration (I just love thinking these up) Joe, who lives down the street, tells me he has absolute faith that he has the winning lottery numbers. He is 100% sure that they will give him the $1.5 million jackpot. He is going to win, and he tells everyone about it. Saturday night rolls around and all his friends sit by the tv. Sure enough, all Joe's numbers are picked. Everyone rejoices. Except Joe. He thought his faith would win him that prize, so he didn't bother to DO anything necessary to win it. He never bought a ticket! He has no ticket to turn in! Joe goes down to the state lottery commission and shows them the numbers written on the palm of his hand. Ya know what? They find it unacceptable. State law commands that you not only purchase but turn in an actual state-issued ticket. Poor Joe. It's just like going to heaven. You can have 100% faith, but unless you do the commands Christ gives, you don't get the big prize, salvation.

Please address the issue of whether or not we must obey ALL his commands, which happens to include baptism, in order to enter his Kingdom.

Thank You
Carri

 

[Kevin]

carri,

Freak-- Do you always just go off the subject or ignore it when you can't produce what is asked?

Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner Johnny!

 

[Ian Day]

Carri,

Expounding illustrations is unedifying. Keep to Scripture. I suggest you refer to my post on "The Exposition of Illustrations".

Its at the top of page 28.

 

[Ian Day]

Carri, I need your help:

I am diabetic, & a diabetic friend is vegetarian & will not eat eggs. We both like cake.

Can you suggest a recipe for cake which uses neither eggs not sugar

Thanks.