The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

c.moore

c.moore

New member
Jesus indeed said be baptized to be saved. CMoore can grasp it. He knows. But unlike you, CMoore also grasps that Paul did teach differently in regards to baptism. He taught differntly in that we are not bound by the law. You want us to go back to it.
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drbrumley

thanks for that remark and Rene has a mind of being directed by legalism and trying to obey all the laws.
I don`t think he will pass the tests, and God will say not well done my unfaithful son.;)

I hope Rene is not a teacher because:

Jas:3:1: My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Be careful Rene for faulse teaching , and God will judge you for your corrupting the good new gospel of salvation.:down:
 
rene

rene

New member
If you would do a tad bit of study - you will see that the comment of Paul's was written to BELIEVERS - those that were joined with Jesus by following His teachings, the teachings that the apostles took to all they came in contact with.

Have given you AMPLE examples from within the bible - yet you can't get past your 'buffet' approach to pick and choose what it is that you wish to follow of Jesus teachings. Your choice so far has been to pick from within certain writings, displacing them from the reality of what Jesus taught and the apostles clearly taught from the first public display of the reality of the church onthe day of Pentecost, that Jesus instructed to be taught.

Unless you change your ways - you aren't following Jesus at all - per your own admission upon this form. You instead have choosen to follow a few select words from Paul and suggest that they support your stand that goes against the teachings of Jesus. Personally, I see that you slander Paul in your suggestion of him suggesting that he didn't believe within the practice of baptism. That Paul himself followed the teaching of baptism (Acts9:18). Esp. since you have no scripture that supports your claim. All you have is YOUR view - and nothing else.

As to your attempt at belittlement of me personally - I consider the source and look to Jesus to send His Spirit to you to show you His truth and His words vs what it is that you follow. Take heed to your own words and beware what it is that you follow.

Rene
Rene
 
c.moore

c.moore

New member
rene

You are indeed to caught up in trying to get God attention by getting brownie points in your relgious works and rituals.
the Key is beleieving, trusting in Christ which brings you to a personal love relationship.

You try to make a water ritual an added work of salvation , which you are taken the bible out of it`s timing , and you are killing the good news of the gospel with religious old works of the OT.

Let me ask you are you Catholic??

Have you been also Baptized as an Infant and claim that is also following Christ???


God Bless
 
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rene

rene

New member
No, my desire has been and continues to be to follow the teachings that Jesus left.

Your claims and attempts at insults show more about than you realize.

It isn't a ritual. It is from the teachings of JESUS, the one that you claim to follow. I COPIED from the BIBLE the very words of JESUS. HIS TEACHING that you have insulted and suggested to be "minor", of no importance. Think about what it is that you have done here in this public form to the very teachings of Jesus that I copied from the bible for you to read for yourself.

I don't know what it is that you’re following - but it evidently isn't the teachings of Jesus if you can do such to His teachings. You need to repent, and you need to seek direction from God to help you understand His gospel that His Son, Jesus shared.

You claim the title of "evangelist". What is it that you 'evangelize’ people to - since you insult the words and teachings of Jesus?

Rene
 
c.moore

c.moore

New member
rene

You need to take the time out and read everyone of the post here on this thread and you will see that there was pastor, ministers , preachers, Evangelist like Freak who started this great thread who all explained this water baptism is another gospel and we are saved by Christ finished work on the cross and we are righteous through Christ alone , and not a water down gospel as you claim.
Ther were so many before you believe and teach your understanding is false and of error, for slavation.
We are saved by Christ not by water.

repentance either you believe it or not is by the blood of Christ and not a washing of H2o.

So please study what other have taught, you are just repenting error here again which was so often debated.



Let me ask you the key question what no one want to answer how believes water baptism saved.


DO righteous people go to hell????
 
rene

rene

New member
Standing on others teachings vs. looking at EXACTLY what it is that YOU have been doing - is an attempt to avoid.

I read the posts.

I am pointing out to YOU - that what YOU are suggesting goes against the very words that Jesus spoke, that I copied here for you to see for yourself if you didn't know where to find it within the bible.

You are still intent upon ignoring His words, Jesus words. You still are intent upon trying to point to others vs. answering direct comments to yourself about just what it is that you have done.

I have pointed out more than once that the books that you quote from that you want to suggest that support your buffet approach to the gospel are in fact books written to believers that had already followed the gospel as the new believers did on Pentecost and were baptized. That people can't 'undo' baptism isn't that hard to grasp. But that many of those books within scripture were written to people that were indeed walking away from grace and faith - 'as a dog returns to its vomit' is an example Jesus gave for those that walked away from the things of God.

But still you attempt to make points on moot points vs. addressing direct comments to yourself.

You can play games with me all you want. One day, you will stand before God and the games will be no more. LOOK at what you have done, suggested about a teaching given by Jesus Himself and the instructions that He gave to be done when sharing the gospel - the one that you supported in being called "minor".

What is it that you 'evangelize' to since you mock the words of Jesus found within scripture?

Rene
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Rene,

I don't see anyone disputing the fact Jesus commanded water baptism.

I'll even say it, JESUS DEMANDED WATER BAPTISM. There, are you happy now?

But is it for us? As a REQUIREMENT? The answer to that is an absolute NO!

Gal 2:7,8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles).
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Just so we can have a mutual respectful dialogue, can you answer some of these questions for me, so I know where your coming from?

1. Did John the Baptist preach that a person had to be baptized to be saved?



2. If so, was water baptism ever necessary for salvation?



3. Over what period of time was baptism necessary for salvation?



4. Who preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins?





5. With whom was God dealing when baptism was required for salvation in the New Testament?



6. To whom was John sent with his message?



7. To whom did Christ send the twelve in Matthew 10? Were they supposed to go to the Gentiles?



8. Did Christ ever say that a man had to be baptized? If so, where?



9. After Christ went to heaven, was water baptism still necessary?



10. Did God start a new dispensation with Paul?



11. To whom was Paul sent?



12. Did Peter preach to the Gentiles that they could be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as their savior?



13. What did Paul say about water baptism?



14. Did he ever baptize anyone?

C. Moore, you can answer these too. I look forward to both of your responses. Thank You.

In Christ,
DRB

P.S. I might make a thread so everyone can answer.
 
rene

rene

New member
First "drbrumley" - my comments are directed to Moore's comments about the teaching of Jesus. Not about any of the points that you bring up.

So your questions - have nothing to do with the exchange that I am having with Moore.

He agreed and supported someone in saying that a teaching of Jesus was "minor", not important, not needed to be followed. Such is not the actions nor attitude of one that follows Jesus.

For someone to make that sort of comment - while making the comment that they are "Christian" and a 'follower of Jesus' is more than a mixed message. It is against what it means to be a follower of anything.

'How can one claim to be a follower if they don't follow the one they claim to follow?'

Since this man thinks that what he is doing is 'right' - and using several of you from the list to 'justify' his stand - weird to say the least. I have sat here and typed out scripture for this guy to read to show him the foolishness that he is suggesting - how what he is typing doesn't even make sense - that if he continues on this buffet approach to the gospel, he doesn't have nor is following the whole gospel as taught by Jesus. Point being - this man thinks that he is sharing/following the whole gospel when he is offering only bits and pieces.

Maybe you feel comfortable leaving someone in such a position. Me, I see within scripture that when I find someone in such a position that I am to share them the gospel as shown within scripture, as Jesus instructed.

Rene
 
rene

rene

New member
Originally posted by STONE

What does the water baptism do?
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I can't honestly say. I do know that Jesus instructed that baptism would be part of sharing the gospel and something for a believer to follow.

I have an opinion. I see where such a practice was common within Hebrew worship - that's why John the Baptist doing such wasn't what caused people to be upset, it was his comments about the leaders wrong doings.

But it isn't clearly stated within scripture. That Jesus said for it to be followed should be enough for all believers to follow the teaching if they are indeed Christian.

Rene
 
STONE

STONE

New member
(Isaiah 1:16-18)
16"Wash you", make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(ezekiel 18:21-23)
21But if the wicked will "turn from"(i.e. repent) all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

It's evident where John's ideas came from.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Originally posted by rene

First "drbrumley" - my comments are directed to Moore's comments about the teaching of Jesus. Not about any of the points that you bring up.

So your questions - have nothing to do with the exchange that I am having with Moore.

He agreed and supported someone in saying that a teaching of Jesus was "minor", not important, not needed to be followed. Such is not the actions nor attitude of one that follows Jesus.

For someone to make that sort of comment - while making the comment that they are "Christian" and a 'follower of Jesus' is more than a mixed message. It is against what it means to be a follower of anything.

'How can one claim to be a follower if they don't follow the one they claim to follow?'

Since this man thinks that what he is doing is 'right' - and using several of you from the list to 'justify' his stand - weird to say the least. I have sat here and typed out scripture for this guy to read to show him the foolishness that he is suggesting - how what he is typing doesn't even make sense - that if he continues on this buffet approach to the gospel, he doesn't have nor is following the whole gospel as taught by Jesus. Point being - this man thinks that he is sharing/following the whole gospel when he is offering only bits and pieces.

Maybe you feel comfortable leaving someone in such a position. Me, I see within scripture that when I find someone in such a position that I am to share them the gospel as shown within scripture, as Jesus instructed.

Rene
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ROFL, this is a continuation from OUR conversation. But I guess I can translate this a cop out.
 
rene

rene

New member
What is being written of within those passages is ref. to "micvah" of "mikveh" (have seen both spellings).

It is a total cleansing that prepares one for a spiritual happening.

Something from a friend of mine that is Messianic Christian.

"A mikvah is not a glorified bathtub, sauna or swimming pool. Yes, cleanliness is important to the mitzvah of immersion, but only as a preparatory step. In no way can the bath, this act of preparation, take the place of the mikvah, the process of spiritual transformation which the bath merely readies us. The divinely-ordained change of status from tumah to taharah must be carried out using the divinely-prescribed tool, the mikvah. The Rambam summarizes this issue: “Immersion is also a matter which must be accepted on faith... for ritual impurity is not mud or filth which washes off with water� (Hilchot Mikvaot 11:12). The divine commandment of immersion in a mikvah can be seen as a transition from a connection to death to the renewal of life."

This of course comes from a Jewish viewpoint which is relevant to the scriptures you quote since they are from the OT.

Rene
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Rene,

You said

He agreed and supported someone in saying that a teaching of Jesus was "minor", not important, not needed to be followed. Such is not the actions nor attitude of one that follows Jesus.
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CMoore didnt say they were minor. He did say we are not bound by being baptized in water as a requirement. I say the same thing. So if your attempting to blast CMoore, you can also attempt to blast me.

I can't make that any clearer for you. Jesus said it? Yes!

Do we follow it? No. Why? Cause it has been done away with as a requirement. Is that clear?
 
c.moore

c.moore

New member
Originally posted by drbrumley

Rene,



CMoore didnt say they were minor. He did say we are not bound by being baptized in water as a requirement. I say the same thing. So if your attempting to blast CMoore, you can also attempt to blast me.

I can't make that any clearer for you. Jesus said it? Yes!

Do we follow it? No. Why? Cause it has been done away with as a requirement. Is that clear?
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This is wha´t I preach to others but I do recommend everyone i bring to Christ or show the way , that they should get water baptized, sometime in their saved born again christian life.

But to make water baptism a requirement to be saved is a error and a false gospel.

I preach like Paul, about Christ death burial and resurrection, and the blood of the cross saved and the blood of Christ repents for our sins not water that another gospel Rene is mixing the Old with the new, which that mean he just as well make animal sacrifices and add all the other laws which is alll passed by our new covenant in love, and grace.
 
rene

rene

New member
"drbrumley", I suggest you go back when "Freak" was here and see where what I wrote was indeed done with an "AMEN" from Moore and his further encouragement.
 
rene

rene

New member
But to make water baptism a requirement to be saved is a error and a false gospel.
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Where within the words that Jesus spoke did He indicate that it was an option? Chapter and verse.

Again, the bible was NOT written to unbelievers that were just thinking of becoiming Christians. It was written to people that had already followed the teachings of Jesus.

Teaching anything that is not Jesus teaching is not teaching His teaching. It is not following His example. It is not following His words.

Rene
 
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