The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
rene
New member
"drbrumley" since you think it is needed to offer animal sacrifices, I would like to know what verse within the NT that you base such upon.
Also would like to know what that has to do with one saying that the words and teachings of Jesus are "minor" and if such an approach really reflects one that calls themselves a "Christian".
Also would like to know what that has to do with one saying that the words and teachings of Jesus are "minor" and if such an approach really reflects one that calls themselves a "Christian".
rene
New member
Moore, you still have not addressed what type of person is it that claims to follow Jesus but then picks and makes choice as to what teachings He gave that is to be followed.
As any can see, you support the thought that at least one of His teachings is to be considered "minor".
What are people that do such called?
As any can see, you support the thought that at least one of His teachings is to be considered "minor".
What are people that do such called?
drbrumley
Well-known member
Rene,
You said follow Jesus' words. Jesus said follow the law. All I'm doing is asking you if you do since you put so much emphasis on Jesus' words and neglect Paul's teachings, which came from Jesus BTW. I don't need to sacrifice goats and sheep since Jesus' was my sacrifice. But I also know the difference of what applies to Jews and then what applies to us a the "Body of Christ." This is where you make your mistake and say we MUST water baptize. You don't see Paul baptizing. He did a couple of times, and he doesn't remember who except a couple people. If Water baptism is so important, then why does Paul write more about it and tell us it's a requirement? ANSWER: Cause it's NOT!!!!!!
rene
New member
"drbrumley" since you seem intent upon the topic, where is it that Jesus told us to offer sacrifices?
Ah yes, you going to point out a "mistake" that you think that I have made - just that I never stated anything close to what you suggest.
All the letters written within the bible were not written to those outside the body of Christ. They all were believers. The example of how the church started clearly within Acts 2 - and baptism was indeed part of it.
Written letters to those that had already followed the teaching that est. the early church wouldn't have a need to hear again about baptism - they already would have followed that teaching of Jesus, even though there are places within those letters where baptism is talked about. Not to mention that one can't un-baptize themselves. Some have walked away from the grace and faith given if they become lax. Some that have done that listed within scripture and Christians warned about them.
My concern and even to continue to write within this thread is the attitude that I have seen of some that feel that *their* views of baptism is the one to be had - never mind the other portions of scripture that address it or the fact that Jesus taught it. The teachings of Jesus have been called "minor" and supported as such by people that make the claim to be Christian.
If such doesn't give you concern - no problem. I see such from one that claims that they are following Jesus while rejecting His very words puts me in the place of attempting to get them to see just what it is that they are doing and the end results if they continue down such a path.
The very fact that Moore can't answer just what is a person that rejects parts of Jesus teachings are and what they are called showed that better than moniker that I could dream up or one that he can think of himself evidently.
Ah yes, you going to point out a "mistake" that you think that I have made - just that I never stated anything close to what you suggest.
All the letters written within the bible were not written to those outside the body of Christ. They all were believers. The example of how the church started clearly within Acts 2 - and baptism was indeed part of it.
Written letters to those that had already followed the teaching that est. the early church wouldn't have a need to hear again about baptism - they already would have followed that teaching of Jesus, even though there are places within those letters where baptism is talked about. Not to mention that one can't un-baptize themselves. Some have walked away from the grace and faith given if they become lax. Some that have done that listed within scripture and Christians warned about them.
My concern and even to continue to write within this thread is the attitude that I have seen of some that feel that *their* views of baptism is the one to be had - never mind the other portions of scripture that address it or the fact that Jesus taught it. The teachings of Jesus have been called "minor" and supported as such by people that make the claim to be Christian.
If such doesn't give you concern - no problem. I see such from one that claims that they are following Jesus while rejecting His very words puts me in the place of attempting to get them to see just what it is that they are doing and the end results if they continue down such a path.
The very fact that Moore can't answer just what is a person that rejects parts of Jesus teachings are and what they are called showed that better than moniker that I could dream up or one that he can think of himself evidently.
c.moore
New member
They are real born again christians spirit led and not led by works of rituals and getting wet to work their way to salvation.
Don`t you think Jesus did all the finished work for us on the cross or Jesus needed a water ritual to help Him..
How about the thief how was he baptized??
rene
New member
So the belief that you follow, one doesn't have to follow the teachings of Jesus - but can follow teachings that they like better vs the "minor" ones that you don't feel are "important" and such is what you support.
You can call that Christian. But the use of that word was given to those that were 'in Jesus' - meaning that they followed all He taught. You don't.
You can call that Christian. But the use of that word was given to those that were 'in Jesus' - meaning that they followed all He taught. You don't.
c.moore
New member
I follow Hid teaching but the true teaching is the good new gospel to have eternal , life and being a christian is in the spiritual born again life, and not a water down gospel.
We are saved because of Christ and this is what even PÃœaul preached and taught.
He didN´t baptized everybody, his message was Christ just like ours should be, and the precious blood of Christ.
read the bible , going to church , water baptism, helping the poor , and needy, will not save us.
Christ alone can save us ,ot rituals or traditions, and religious works, of OT including a circumcission.
We even have some religion like the catholic who took Infant baptism and try to make a doctrine out of it even though it is not biblical, and mormon even take water baptism out of context for salvation with their baptism of the dead.
What a shame for the gospel.
God Bless
rene
New member
Following the teachings of Jesus means that you follow all of them. Not 'pick and choose' which ones that you want to see as "minor" and no longer needed - even tho Jesus never stated what it is that you support.
You need to read AND FOLLOW Jesus teachings vs what it is clear that you support from simply reading within this thread.
That you can't grasp what I wrote, which is easy to confirm from simply reading scripture seems clear. Instead, you follow and support teachings not found within the bible. Nowhere within scripture does it state that baptism would 'pass away' or 'be done away with' before His return as you are following - unless you want to suggest a scripture that states such?
You need to follow Jesus and His teachings vs. what your following now. Not to follow Jesus and His teachings, His words will keep you from having relationship with Him - thus even God.
You need to read AND FOLLOW Jesus teachings vs what it is clear that you support from simply reading within this thread.
That you can't grasp what I wrote, which is easy to confirm from simply reading scripture seems clear. Instead, you follow and support teachings not found within the bible. Nowhere within scripture does it state that baptism would 'pass away' or 'be done away with' before His return as you are following - unless you want to suggest a scripture that states such?
You need to follow Jesus and His teachings vs. what your following now. Not to follow Jesus and His teachings, His words will keep you from having relationship with Him - thus even God.
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c.moore
New member
Ga:5:13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Ga:5:14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ga:5:15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Ga:5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga:5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Ga:5:14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ga:5:15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Ga:5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga:5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
rene
New member
Nowhere within Galatians does it state that baptism as taught by Jesus is something not to be followed.
You THINK the verses you copied here support you - but they don't even address it.
What is really sad is the lack of knowledge that your showig in all of this about scripture. Nowhere within scripture will you find any support for the stand that you have supported - and seem to want to continue to support.
You THINK the verses you copied here support you - but they don't even address it.
What is really sad is the lack of knowledge that your showig in all of this about scripture. Nowhere within scripture will you find any support for the stand that you have supported - and seem to want to continue to support.
c.moore
New member
When God separated Israel from other peoples so they would become His chosen people, He told them they must distinguish between clean and unclean animals. The distinction of unclean animals would separate Israel from the other nations.
But I have said to you, “You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.� I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples. You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine (Lev 20:24-26).
After Paul was saved, God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10:9-17). Peter’s vision showed there were no more clean and unclean animals for Israel. By this vision, God showed Peter that Israel was no longer His chosen people. However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached� (Acts 10:34-37).
This was the gospel of faith-works and endurance for salvation which Christ taught while on earth (Mat 24:13,14; John 15:1-8). When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation. Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion, the Holy Spirit showed us His new plan. How did He show this new plan? He did it in a marvelous way. Peter was sent to a Gentile’s house. He was told to go there without doubting. This was a strange command for Peter to receive, but he did as God told him. He went to the house of Cornelius and preached the gospel of the circumcision to them. While Peter was still preaching, before he commanded them to be baptized as he had earlier (Acts 2:38), the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44,45).
The Holy Spirit caused some amazing things by this event. The Holy Spirit’s work here would convince the circumcision believers that salvation was now open to the Gentiles. Wow! God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, and we can see from the accounts of Paul’s conversion, that he was the one who would be sent to the Gentiles.
Acts 9: 15,16 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.�
Acts 22:17-21 Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, “Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.� 19 So I said, “Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.� 21 Then He said to me, “Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.�
Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed. Water baptism was performed after Holy Spirit baptism. Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation. Water baptism became secondary for the first time.
We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them. Now, why did these changes take place? Because Paul was converted, given a new stewardship called the dispensation of the mystery, and a new gospel, the uncircumcision gospel which was also called the gospel of the grace of God.
Gal 2:7,8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles).
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure. But it seems that because Ananias had commanded him to be baptized, he carried on the practice. So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while.
Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17). After that, he no longer baptized. But we must remember that water baptism was definitely an integral part of the circumcision apostles’ commission (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-18). When Paul wrote he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body� (1 Cor. 12:13). Further, in Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, “made without hands,� water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faith of the operation of God.� Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).
After Israel had been set aside, part of Paul’s ministry was to show Israel this fact. God pronounced for the final time, through Paul, that Israel had been set aside (Acts 28:28). This happened when Paul made his inspired judicial decree quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. The baptisms imposed on Israel were set aside until God would be dealing with Israel again in the tribulation. For instance, water baptism will be necessary for salvation again when Peter’s epistles will be in God’s program for the tribulation period (1 Pet. 3:20,21).
Now there is one baptism. After his Acts 28:28 decree, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote Eph 4:4,5, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.� One baptism? If there is only one baptism, which one is it? Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being. Now there is only one program. So, today there is one baptism by which we, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ. That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.
So this is the reason why I said you have again an added gospel to the new good news of Christ death and resurrection.
Yes, remember the good news is the one baptism in Christ and Christ in us, which is the Holy Spirit in us to teach us all truth , and guide us into the life of Christ.
God Bless
But I have said to you, “You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.� I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples. You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine (Lev 20:24-26).
After Paul was saved, God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10:9-17). Peter’s vision showed there were no more clean and unclean animals for Israel. By this vision, God showed Peter that Israel was no longer His chosen people. However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached� (Acts 10:34-37).
This was the gospel of faith-works and endurance for salvation which Christ taught while on earth (Mat 24:13,14; John 15:1-8). When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation. Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion, the Holy Spirit showed us His new plan. How did He show this new plan? He did it in a marvelous way. Peter was sent to a Gentile’s house. He was told to go there without doubting. This was a strange command for Peter to receive, but he did as God told him. He went to the house of Cornelius and preached the gospel of the circumcision to them. While Peter was still preaching, before he commanded them to be baptized as he had earlier (Acts 2:38), the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44,45).
The Holy Spirit caused some amazing things by this event. The Holy Spirit’s work here would convince the circumcision believers that salvation was now open to the Gentiles. Wow! God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, and we can see from the accounts of Paul’s conversion, that he was the one who would be sent to the Gentiles.
Acts 9: 15,16 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.�
Acts 22:17-21 Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, “Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.� 19 So I said, “Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.� 21 Then He said to me, “Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.�
Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed. Water baptism was performed after Holy Spirit baptism. Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation. Water baptism became secondary for the first time.
We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them. Now, why did these changes take place? Because Paul was converted, given a new stewardship called the dispensation of the mystery, and a new gospel, the uncircumcision gospel which was also called the gospel of the grace of God.
Gal 2:7,8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles).
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure. But it seems that because Ananias had commanded him to be baptized, he carried on the practice. So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while.
Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17). After that, he no longer baptized. But we must remember that water baptism was definitely an integral part of the circumcision apostles’ commission (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-18). When Paul wrote he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body� (1 Cor. 12:13). Further, in Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, “made without hands,� water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faith of the operation of God.� Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).
After Israel had been set aside, part of Paul’s ministry was to show Israel this fact. God pronounced for the final time, through Paul, that Israel had been set aside (Acts 28:28). This happened when Paul made his inspired judicial decree quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. The baptisms imposed on Israel were set aside until God would be dealing with Israel again in the tribulation. For instance, water baptism will be necessary for salvation again when Peter’s epistles will be in God’s program for the tribulation period (1 Pet. 3:20,21).
Now there is one baptism. After his Acts 28:28 decree, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote Eph 4:4,5, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.� One baptism? If there is only one baptism, which one is it? Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being. Now there is only one program. So, today there is one baptism by which we, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ. That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.
So this is the reason why I said you have again an added gospel to the new good news of Christ death and resurrection.
Yes, remember the good news is the one baptism in Christ and Christ in us, which is the Holy Spirit in us to teach us all truth , and guide us into the life of Christ.
God Bless
rene
New member
Look, all your showing is that you can't grasp what is within the bible.
Is there ANYWHERE within the bible that states that the instructions that Jesus left about baptism are no longer needed to be practiced?? ANYWHERE??
Do you not see how the church was est. and that they followed that teaching? That others followed that teaching from other parts of the new testament? Are you really trying to suggest that Paul changed the teachings of Jesus?? He never states that baptism was done away with or "minor" as you and others want to do. His not writing what it is that you want to suggest shows that your suggestion of his writings somehow support your view are questionable at best - at worst that you are intent upon twisting and perverting scripture and the teachings that Jesus taught.
Can you not grasp that Jesus taught about the need to baptise and that you support a teaching that goes against His teaching?? That there is no scripture that supports your claims within scripture??
Rene
Is there ANYWHERE within the bible that states that the instructions that Jesus left about baptism are no longer needed to be practiced?? ANYWHERE??
Do you not see how the church was est. and that they followed that teaching? That others followed that teaching from other parts of the new testament? Are you really trying to suggest that Paul changed the teachings of Jesus?? He never states that baptism was done away with or "minor" as you and others want to do. His not writing what it is that you want to suggest shows that your suggestion of his writings somehow support your view are questionable at best - at worst that you are intent upon twisting and perverting scripture and the teachings that Jesus taught.
Can you not grasp that Jesus taught about the need to baptise and that you support a teaching that goes against His teaching?? That there is no scripture that supports your claims within scripture??
Rene
drbrumley
Well-known member
Yes, I know how the church started, and it wasn't Acts 2.
This is true, if you have a problem with this, well then you have a problem and I would also say your a legalist.
Jesus indeed said be baptized to be saved. CMoore can grasp it. He knows. But unlike you, CMoore also grasps that Paul did teach differently in regards to baptism. He taught differntly in that we are not bound by the law. You want us to go back to it.
Maybe I missed it, but do you beleive water baptism is required to be saved? If so, explain here why it is a requirement.
rene
New member
Having answered that any number of times - I believe that for one to be a Christian that they are to follow the teachings of the one that they claim to follow. In this case, Jesus to be a Christian. To pick and choose what it is that you want to follow of the teachings isn't following anything but personal desires.
Now, can you answer my rather simple question? WHERE within the bible does it state that we no longer have to follow the teachings that Jesus left instructions to be followed as part of sharing His gospel?
Rene
Now, can you answer my rather simple question? WHERE within the bible does it state that we no longer have to follow the teachings that Jesus left instructions to be followed as part of sharing His gospel?
Rene
c.moore
New member
When Paul wrote he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body� (1 Cor. 12:13). Further, in Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, “made without hands,� water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faith of the operation of God.� Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).