The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[rene]

Are you still going to discount the words of Jesus in favor of following what you think what should be followed and taught opposite of what He taught?

As to your question, I indeed answered it based upon scripture. Show within scripture where someone can discount the words of Jesus and the following of them in favor of doing what it is that they have decided to do as being called "righteous". Point being - there is no such person or example within the bible that fits what you want to see as 'righteous'.

 

[c.moore]

yes there is an example very clearly explaned.

Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

also don`t look that the obedience was done by Jesus to make us righteous.

So do righteous people go to hell??

Yes--____?

or

NO____?

 

[rene]

I do not agree with your def. of righteous. To you it means one picks and makes choices as is done at a buffet of what one wants to follow.

Several, MANY PAGES back, I asked you to show within scripture where such was seen as righteous since you seem intent upon following something other than the words of Jesus. Where is it declared that we no longer follow the words of Jesus on baptism, that it is ''optional''?

Since this is what you are telling others to believe and what you follow - seems that you would at least know where such is found within scripture.

So far, your making claims and haven't backed up one of them that states what you want to suggest - while I have shown the very words of Jesus to support what I have written that shows your claims to be false.

 

[c.moore]

No, again you have missed the whole simple gospel of truth and you don`t know the key to our relationship with Christ in knowing who we are in His righteousness and we being God sons and daughters.

You exchange the righteousness with the a religious works rituals and good works to qualifiy for the Kingdom of God and the salvation message.

This is why I ask to answer the righteousness of God question which you everytime run around the bush trying to aviod the question because it is to easy and not logical to you to answer, because it is to good to be true, and to simple to accept, and to free to be qualified.

So can you answer the question do righteous people go to hell???

Yes__

or
No___


Shalom

 

[rene]

No, again you have ignored what I have been attempting to get you to see within the bible. You have been for literally pages turning from what is within the bible to go instead to your own choices. Your choices and claims about scripture are not within scripture. Therefore, not within scripture, not scriptural.

Your version of "righteous" comes from the approach to the bible that you have that is the buffet approach to scripture. You are following the pick and make choice while ignoring the rest. You can't show within the bible that your claims are supported by the bible.

But then, I knew you couldn't because I know that within scripture there is no place that states baptism as taught by Jesus was done away with and not to be followed, an "minor" or an "option" as you follow.

So far, you’re making claims and haven't backed up one of them that state what you want to suggest - while I have shown the very words of Jesus to support what I have written that shows your claims to be false.

Your stand is upon sand while I am still firmly upon the rock found within scripture.

I have already stated those that are "righteous" are those that follow Jesus. Those that follow Him don't go to hell. just what is it that you see as "righteous" since you don't follow what I believe or what is shown within scripture?

 

[c.moore]

So how do you think jesus made us righteous through HIM??

What do you think He did for us, or should we take the place of Christ for ourselves??

Let me put it this way what do we need to do to become a sinner sin??

why are we sinners before we even didn`t commit any sinful acts??

The same is we are righteous as soon as we accept Christ in our hearts born again.

Ro:5:14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ro:5:15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Ro:5:16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Ro:5:17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's

 

[rene]

So, don't you think you should follow His teachings, His words and not call them minor with your personal suggestion not backed by scripture that baptism is not to be followed??

Still no verse that suggests what you want to support, not that such keeps you from supporting your personal views that go against scripture.

Just what is your version of what it means to be righteous in God's eyes? It is easy to see that in your eyes to be righteous is to follow and believe along the lines that you believe. Problem is that to do such, goes against what Jesus taught to be done!

 

[c.moore]

rene

yes I follow His teaching and I follow the Holy spirit in me.

I tell everyone to get water baptized just like everyone who has debated here has believed, and preached, but not to get baptized to be saved or to make it a salvation ritual.

We are saved when we are born again and begin to be learn how to be taught by the Word of God and to know God by His Word, which is the water of the Word or the sword, the living Word of God or the milk , food and many other names we call the Word of God.
It is our instruction book how to eat and drink , and have overflow of water , to live and walk the christian walk after you are saved and the water baptism is included in your walk , with going to church , taking the Lord supper, helping other , praying, and etc.

But we do these things because we are saved , we obey because we have that Christ like Spirit in us, and we do`t want to sin because Jesus is guiding us, so we are obeying God at our best, after being saved, born again and washed in the blood of the lamb, for our repentance alone through Christ with no water, but the blood is needed, not water for salvation as you claim and try to hold onto the old tradition of righteousness through religious works and rituals.

Try to find the new Gospel of Christ it is better than the Old of John the baptist.

I don`t want you to slip into sacrificing animals and doing circumcission to get your brownie point to salavation.

Look to the cross not to some water amen!

 

[rene]

Your comments and attempts at insult I ignore.

Your words now go against what you were so strongly supporting, def. not in line with your earlier comments of baptism as optional, minor, and no longer needed.

A week from now are you going to flip-flop again? Not trying to be anything other than a person asking an honest question after this merry-go-round I have been on because of what you wrote.

"Born again" as Jesus taught, as He instructed, has within His teaching the instruction of baptism. No scripture says that it's 'done away with' or "minor" or an "option". That is if one is following the words of Jesus such as found in Matthew 28:19. "Righteousness" or 'right standing with God' is only found within relationship with Jesus and that relationship is built upon following His teachings since He only taught the will and desire of God. Since Jesus taught baptism, such must be the will of God.

 

[c.moore]

rene

we should follow Him if Christ is in a person.
We should be led by that Spirit so we can obey and have the truth .

You are making the baptismo ritual an condition of salvation and we honestly disagree with you on this doctrine or gospel of your today.

yes I agree baptism should be done in our christian walk as obedience but not to get saved or be a part of our recieving our sonship in the Kingdom of God.

God looks at our heart from the beginning, and the devil looks to see if we are in Christ by our actions including what we say, and what we do like baptism is an outward testimony we are in Christ, that why the use of the mouth in Rom 10:9 is good .

The baptism is good to show also what already happen in our hearts including the repentancde and the washing of our sins and being a child of God.

But still do righteous people go to hell period, without some kind of righteous works to qualify??

Yes or no?

you never answered the question which was so simple just beat around the bush trying not to be caught justifying your added gospel.

 

[JustAChristian]

Ever Wonder Why Some People Will Not Hear The Truth?

Ever Wonder Why Some People Will Not Hear The Truth?

No one reasonably accepts what they know to be a lie. This is because we can see the discredit it brings to our lives, and the lack of value to the liar. However, in matters of religion, many seem to establish a standard of tolerance to those things that are found as lies. Because they will not accept the true precepts in matters of faith or are contrary to conveyance and desire, lies become the standard, and truth becomes relative and unimportant.

There are many reasons why truth is not always readily accepted in manners of faith, and here I'll touch upon three of them. Truth is rejected by some religious people because it requires a study and confrontation with teachings of the Bible which might be found in opposition to one's personal views or feelings. The apostle Paul instructed his young son in the faith Timothy to "study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the way of truth." Why study? In order to rightly divide the word of God. This says that any institution which says it is the only authorized source for interpretation of the Bible is lying. We find, however that untold millions have believed this lie. Each person has the right---yea the responsibility to learn the truth themselves through a thorough study of the Bible. Man must not "lean upon your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) Which is just a way of saying don't depend on a personal interpretation, but study to have the proper understanding. God would not give us laws to be judged by and then make it impossible to know and understand those laws ( Jn. 12:48). You can certainly come to a correct understanding of the Bible through a systematic study (2 Tim. 2:15).

A second reason truth as found in the Bible is not accepted is because it always condemns that which is wrong. When one learns that the scriptures have value to guide up, and that using this value one can learn the right way to conduct one's life (2 Tim 3:16). The apostle Jesus said it plainly that "man love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil" (Jn. 3:19). We don't need to be listening to lies if it’s the truth we want to follow. We should not want to serve two masters (Mt. 6:24).

The third reason we note here why people will not always accept truth is because truth often requires a change of conduct. When Jesus established the church ( Mt 16:18-20), He intended that only baptized believers be members (Acts 2:42-47; Jn. 3:3-5). Yet, some will say that you can be saved before you become a member of the church of Christ. I say, how can one be a part of the family of God before they are in God's family? Paul wrote there is now one baptism for us to obey (Eph 4:5). It is that baptism that gets us into Christ (Gal. 3:27). It is an act of being immersed into a body of water for spiritual cleansing (Acts 2:38; 22:16). It is done in faith (1 Peter 1:21-22; Gal. 3:26,27).

Without obedience to baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and into Christ, one had believed and accepted a lie, and because God can not lie (Titus 1:2), the doctrine that prompted that lie comes from one's failure to rightly divide the word of God (2 Tim 2:15). Feelings and being taught wrong are no excuses for obedience (2 Thess 1:7-10). We are individually responsible for our actions (Rev. 20:12). Study your Bible correctly. You will be doing yourself a great service, and will be well pleasing to God and Christ.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[c.moore]

yes, faith is spiritual, belief is spiritual, and it will all give us spiritual cleaning, but the faith in the blood of Jesus which spiritual cleans us for everlasting life , as sons and daughter in Christ not water.

GOd Bless

 

[rene]

But still do righteous people go to hell period, without some kind of righteous works to qualify??

Jesus spoke about people that believed that they were "righteous".

Mat 7:21 "Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, _but_ the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you*; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore, every [one] who hears these words of Mine and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the solid rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the solid rock.
Mat 7:26 "And every [one] hearing these words of Mine and not doing them will be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house, and it fell, and its fall was great."

Many will cry out "Lord, Lord". Many will claim to have "prophesied". Many will claim to have "cast out demons". Many will claim to have done "miraculous works". People will hear, but not do. It is the one that "hears these words of Mine and does them, I will compare him to a wise man" is what Jesus says.

One can not ignore what Jesus taught and be a followed of Jesus. One can not ignore what He said in Matthew 28 and be considered to be following His teaching.

Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! _I_ am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

I agree with what Jesus taught. I agree with His view.

Question is what are you going to do?

Rene

 

[JustAChristian]

Faith In The Blood.....Hmmmm....

Faith In The Blood.....Hmmmm....

Originally posted by c.moore

yes, faith is spiritual, belief is spiritual, and it will all give us spiritual cleaning, but the faith in the blood of Jesus which spiritual cleans us for everlasting life , as sons and daughter in Christ not water.

GOd Bless

c. moore,
You say you have faith in the blood of Jesus which spiritually cleanses us. Tell us, how does this blood cleanse if it is never applied? The only way to come into contact with the blood of Christ is through baptism (read Rev. 1:5; Romans 6:3-5; Acts 22:16; Eph 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14). Tell us, how did Jesus wash us from our sins with his own blood? In what manner and how did he apply the cleansing blood? Surely you can understand this and answer truthfully. Looking forward to reading your answer soon.

In Christ,
JustAChristian

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood"

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[c.moore]

You say you have faith in the blood of Jesus which spiritually cleanses us. Tell us, how does this blood cleanse if it is never applied?

yes it is applied by our confession which gives us eternal life and salvation now.


Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Ro:10:7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph. 2:13: "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ". Then 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". 1 John 1:7: "The blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanseth us from all sin". Heb. 9:12: "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place". Rev. 1:5: "Unto him that loved us, and hath washed us from our sins in his own blood." Those so referred to are described in chapter 5, verse 9, as singing together: "Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood". Again in chapter 7, verse 14: "These are they that came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".

How do we plead the blood of Jesus?


Revelation 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. (NIV)

Jesus has shed His blood and made it available for every believer to use. Our mouths play the same role as the bunch of hyssop the Israelites used. We are to use our mouths to apply the blood. Knowing about the blood is not sufficient, speaking about the power of the blood is also necessary.

Speaking with our mouths is important in enforcing our victory (Romans 10:10).

We plead the blood by confessing the salvation and deliverance the blood has brought us.

Lets us a simple illustration to drive home this point.

Imagine the world as a big courtroom.

God is the Judge sitting on the throne (Hebrews 12:23)

Jesus is your advocate, standing beside you to argue your case (1John 2:1) He reminds the Judge that He died and shed His blood for you.

The devil, satan, is your accuser bringing charges and even attacks against you (Revelation 12:10, Zechariah 3:1)

When an accusation is brought against a person in a law court the defendant, if innocent, can greatly increase His or her chances of being acquitted by producing a reliable witness.

Here lies the power of pleading the blood.

Although we were not physically there when Jesus died, His shed blood bears witness to the fact that He died, rose again and defeated the powers of darkness (Colossians 2: 15). All witnesses need to speak. Remember the blood is living and speaks (Hebrews 12: 24). When we actively plead (speak out) the blood into the negative circumstances and attacks satan brings against us, we are bringing a powerful witness to speak on our behalf (1 John 5:8).

Pleading or speaking the blood causes the blood of Jesus to speak out on our behalf and stops the attacks of satan. Any time you sense the hosts of darkness coming against you plead the blood of Jesus against.

You can use whatever words the Holy Spirit lays on your heart to do this. A good example is below.


"Your forces of darkness attacking my home and life, I command you to stop in Jesus name. I hold the blood of Jesus against you. The blood of Jesus has defeated you. The blood of Jesus has set me free. The blood of Jesus avails for me. I plead the blood of Jesus over my home, my life and my family. I protect them from your attacks. I walk in the freedom Jesus' death has brought me.

Amen"

 

[rene]

pleading the blood

Don't give scriptures that you think support such a concept - give actual verses that back up your claim that such is what a believer is to do. Nothing out of some teaching that some person claims is of God - but something from scripture that states what you just claimed.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by rene

Don't give scriptures that you think support such a concept - give actual verses that back up your claim that such is what a believer is to do. Nothing out of some teaching that some person claims is of God - but something from scripture that states what you just claimed.

It is basically the teaching of the good news.

Now if I had a teaching on religious work to get brownie point to eternal life I might quote you scriptures.
Mormon can do a better job trying to justify there baptismo for the dead biblically so I can see you must have pick up their principles of justifying water baptsmo for salvation and the only way to get repentance.

What a shame to the gospel.

 

[rene]

Still talking against what the bible says I see.

Sad to think that someone would rather go with what they think about what Jesus ment vs. just following what He said:

Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! _I_ am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

 

[c.moore]

So paul who never lived with Jesus obeyed jesus , and his mission was to water baptized everyone so they can be saved is this your interpretation of your gospel??

Paul was an good example preaching and doing the gospel.

Maybe you don`t accept paul teachings either is this correct???

Paul also mention is he is glad he baptize no body, meaning his mission is only about Christ, not about a water down gospel of John the baptist to earn salvation.

 

[rene]

You show a lack of knowledge of scripture. Your comments still going against the words of Jesus, suggesting that Paul somehow changed the teaching Jesus told to be followed.

You evidently don't even understand the setting where Paul made his comments about baptism and the division going on at the time....

No wonder your having problems grasping points shown to you.