The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
How are you gonna do that?
How are you gonna do that?
Freak,
How can you put you trust in Christ without putting your trust in the water? He put the water there! (Acts 8:36-40)
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:36-40 AV)
Do you think that it was coincidental that the Spirit had guided Philip to be in Gaza at just the right moment to catch a chariot going south from Jerusalem without any planning? Hundred of miles separating Philip and the eunuch, and the probability of a pool of water being along the way at just the right time. Philip has been preaching the gospel and teaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, no doubt getting to the point where he should tell the eunuch the necessity of baptism when they come upon a pool of water. Do you thing omniscience of God might have had a part in all this? I believe so! There is WATER IN THE PLAN!!! Pure h²o!! Trust Christ there is WATER in the plan!!!
JustAChristian :angel:
How are you gonna do that?
Freak,
How can you put you trust in Christ without putting your trust in the water? He put the water there! (Acts 8:36-40)
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:36-40 AV)
Do you think that it was coincidental that the Spirit had guided Philip to be in Gaza at just the right moment to catch a chariot going south from Jerusalem without any planning? Hundred of miles separating Philip and the eunuch, and the probability of a pool of water being along the way at just the right time. Philip has been preaching the gospel and teaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, no doubt getting to the point where he should tell the eunuch the necessity of baptism when they come upon a pool of water. Do you thing omniscience of God might have had a part in all this? I believe so! There is WATER IN THE PLAN!!! Pure h²o!! Trust Christ there is WATER in the plan!!!
JustAChristian :angel:
JustAChristian,
Freak isn't sincerely interested in the truth. He's only interested in promulgating his heretical belief. When presented with the truth, he either ignores it or tries to twist the words to fit his convoluted theology.
Besides, he talks out of both sides of his mouth. In one instance he says 'trust in Christ'. Then he says ignore what Christ says at Mark 16:16 - 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved', because that's not what Jesus really meant.
Freak isn't sincerely interested in the truth. He's only interested in promulgating his heretical belief. When presented with the truth, he either ignores it or tries to twist the words to fit his convoluted theology.
Besides, he talks out of both sides of his mouth. In one instance he says 'trust in Christ'. Then he says ignore what Christ says at Mark 16:16 - 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved', because that's not what Jesus really meant.
HopeofGlory
New member
Fran,
You did not respond to this post. Don't leave any points out in your rebuttal. Do so and we will continue.
You did not respond to this post. Don't leave any points out in your rebuttal. Do so and we will continue.
Emmaus Road
New member
Does it say anywhere that Jesus himself baptized?
HopeofGlory
New member
Craig –
My replies are bold.
quote:
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Jesus is telling them that ALL the power to remit sins has been given unto Him.
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I don’t which version you may be using but this is NOT what it says in any version I can find. If you continue to choose to READ INTO the passage, no one will ever reach you with the truth! The passage says that Jesus had been granted “ALL authority in heaven and on earth”. This is more – much more, than what you assert. Jesus had already shown and told the disciples He had power to forgive sins on earth. Ex: Luke 7:47.
Because Jesus was now given ALL authority as of Matthew 28, He could and did command a NEW BAPTISM !! This NEW baptism was a WATER baptism !!!
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt. 28:18 KJV
The scripture is clear, ALL power was given to Christ. Water baptism was to manifest Jesus as the Christ. Many that were water baptized for the remission of sins denied Him. Many of His disciples turned back to the old and refused the new testament. The new testament of His shed blood for remission replaced the old testimony of water baptism thus the power of remission was transfered to Christ.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John 6:67
In what did these baptized disciples believe for remission of sins?
Miracles were performed so that men would know He had the power to forgive sins yet they refused the new testament.
As to your so called "new" "water" baptism:
Neither of these words were used by Christ in reference to baptism. The baptism He spoke of was Spirit baptism.
In Christ
Craig
My replies are bold.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus is telling them that ALL the power to remit sins has been given unto Him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t which version you may be using but this is NOT what it says in any version I can find. If you continue to choose to READ INTO the passage, no one will ever reach you with the truth! The passage says that Jesus had been granted “ALL authority in heaven and on earth”. This is more – much more, than what you assert. Jesus had already shown and told the disciples He had power to forgive sins on earth. Ex: Luke 7:47.
Because Jesus was now given ALL authority as of Matthew 28, He could and did command a NEW BAPTISM !! This NEW baptism was a WATER baptism !!!
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt. 28:18 KJV
The scripture is clear, ALL power was given to Christ. Water baptism was to manifest Jesus as the Christ. Many that were water baptized for the remission of sins denied Him. Many of His disciples turned back to the old and refused the new testament. The new testament of His shed blood for remission replaced the old testimony of water baptism thus the power of remission was transfered to Christ.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? John 6:67
In what did these baptized disciples believe for remission of sins?
Miracles were performed so that men would know He had the power to forgive sins yet they refused the new testament.
As to your so called "new" "water" baptism:
Neither of these words were used by Christ in reference to baptism. The baptism He spoke of was Spirit baptism.
In Christ
Craig
RunnerOnAir
New member
Hmm, interesting, I would have to think about that.
And I get my name on this massive thread in theology online history
Now what??
Now what??
Craig -
In reference to Matthew 28:18f -
First you said that Jesus was given all power TO REMIT sins. Your last post says, "ALL power was given to Christ."
There is a world of difference in your two statements. I will leave it to you to reconcile you with yourself.
Next, I must say that you decided not to touch the bulk of my last post on November 4. That is good - because you can't touch it!
Last, I don't have a clue what you are saying in most of your last post, and I won't expend much energy to figure out your babblings.
Your start with an assumption and build upon it with more assumptions and opinion. No one can help you.
You should try to answer my arguments though from November 4 if you want any credibility.
(Hey, maybe Freak can bail you out!)
Now what??
Craig -
In reference to Matthew 28:18f -
First you said that Jesus was given all power TO REMIT sins. Your last post says, "ALL power was given to Christ."
There is a world of difference in your two statements. I will leave it to you to reconcile you with yourself.
Next, I must say that you decided not to touch the bulk of my last post on November 4. That is good - because you can't touch it!
Last, I don't have a clue what you are saying in most of your last post, and I won't expend much energy to figure out your babblings.
Your start with an assumption and build upon it with more assumptions and opinion. No one can help you.
You should try to answer my arguments though from November 4 if you want any credibility.
(Hey, maybe Freak can bail you out!)
HopeofGlory:
So, this is the last time I will respond to you until you go back through our discussion and answer my questions.
I'm reformatting for ease of reading.
As for 'water' baptism, Jesus never told the apostles 'baptize all nations using water'. But then again, when I tell my 5 year old that it's time to brush her teeth, I don't have to tell her 'it's time to use some toothpaste to brush your teeth'. Just as my 5 year old knows that toothpaste is the substance that she has been instructed repeatedly to use to clean her teeth, the apostles knew that water was the substance they were to use to cleanse our souls in baptism.
There is another reason this baptism Jesus directed the apostles to perform had to have been water baptism. That reason is: water is the only way man can perform baptism. Man cannot baptize with the Spirit. Man cannot directly apply the blood of the lamb for the purpose of baptism. So, when Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize, water baptism is the only thing He could have meant. That logic, combined with the evidence of the apostles performing water baptism, proves baptism by water is what Christ commanded at Matt 28:19.
In regard to your question, 'how it would be possible that the apostles could baptize ALL NATIONS in water', as I told you before, apostolic succession. The importance of apostolic succession can be seen in one of the very first actions of the new church when a replacement was chosen to fill Judas' 'office'. As the church grew in size and more preachers, teachers, and ministers of every kind were needed, the apostles would lay hands on these people and ordain them. They passed on the authority that Christ gave to them.
Wow. How in the world did you derive that from scripture. Your way off base Hope. Let me point out a few problems with your theory:
1) There is no scripture that talks of the completion of the gospel preached by Jesus Christ while he was on earth. There is no mention of this idea anywhere in scripture.
2) There is no historical account of such a belief in any writings. That proves this idea of your was recently developed.
3) You claim the apostles weren't preaching 'faith in His shed blood for the remission of sins'. You make this assumption because Peter's discourse to the crowd on Pentecost didn't contain these specific words.
But you are wrong to say Peter didn't preach this message. You must remember Peter was talking to Jews who were already educated in regard to the Messiah. He didn't have to spell it out for them. When Peter made the point that Jesus Christ, the guy they had just crucified, was the Messiah, that's all he needed to say.
4) Your claim also implies that the apostles were in error. If this 'kingdom gospel' was completed on Pentecost and replaced by Paul's new message, why were the apostles preaching the wrong message on and after Pentecost?
5) Your claim indicates that Paul brought this 'new' message that did not include baptism. However, Paul speaks frequently about baptism. For instance, in Romans 6:1-7, Paul describes how we are united through baptism to Christ in His death, and how this death we are joined into by baptism frees us from sin. You can't get a more clear picture of how baptism cleanses us from sin than Pauls words here:
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Now that you have realized Jesus DID command the apostles to water baptize, we'll start making some serious progress.
The apostles had the power to baptize in that manner. In fact, because Jesus commanded them to baptize in that manner, they had an obligation to baptize in that manner.
You're way off base on this one Hope. It is just your misunderstanding of what you are reading that's confusing you. You seem to be basing your conclusion that the apostles were disobedient because you claim that belief in Jesus Christs sacrifice for our sins wasn't preached at Pentecost. I'm trying to tell you that it was. The Jews already had the OT, they had the prophecies of the Messiah, etc... They didn't completely understand until Peter convinced them that Jesus IS the Messiah. Unfortunately, the Jews just had Jesus crucified just 10 days prior to this, and they were hurt to finally realize what they had done to their savior:
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
At the last supper, Jesus shared His body and blood with the apostles: Jesus broke the bread and gace it to his disciples saying 'take, eat, all of you, for this is my body which will be given up. After they had eaten, he took the cup, again gaves thanks and praise and said take this all of you and drink, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for all so that sins may be forgiven.'
The apostles didn't abstain from eating and drinking Christ's body and blood.
BTW, His body and blood were truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ, but that is a discussion for another time and another thread.
Do fish have hooves? Of course not, because birds fly. And I think my saying is even more logical than yours.....
I will be praying for your reading comprehension to improve, Hope.
Now, get busy formulating all those profound thoughts of yours into answers to my previous questions.
God Bless,
Francisco
I believe I have repeatedly responded to these same questions. When I answer them, give proofs to substantiate my position, then ask you a question, you simply ignore my response and continue to ask the same inane questions.
So, this is the last time I will respond to you until you go back through our discussion and answer my questions.
I'm reformatting for ease of reading.
I don't understand your obtuse argument. It's like you keep saying 'He didn't tell them to baptize, He told them to baptize'. Your argument is self contradicting. The scripture very plainly says Jesus told the apostles to baptize, so that's what I believe the apostles were supposed to do. And, as evidenced by the copious scriptures that have been posted to this thread, baptize is exactly what the apostles commenced doing. I believe the apostles understood exactly what Jesus meant for them to do, and they did it.
As for 'water' baptism, Jesus never told the apostles 'baptize all nations using water'. But then again, when I tell my 5 year old that it's time to brush her teeth, I don't have to tell her 'it's time to use some toothpaste to brush your teeth'. Just as my 5 year old knows that toothpaste is the substance that she has been instructed repeatedly to use to clean her teeth, the apostles knew that water was the substance they were to use to cleanse our souls in baptism.
There is another reason this baptism Jesus directed the apostles to perform had to have been water baptism. That reason is: water is the only way man can perform baptism. Man cannot baptize with the Spirit. Man cannot directly apply the blood of the lamb for the purpose of baptism. So, when Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize, water baptism is the only thing He could have meant. That logic, combined with the evidence of the apostles performing water baptism, proves baptism by water is what Christ commanded at Matt 28:19.
In regard to your question, 'how it would be possible that the apostles could baptize ALL NATIONS in water', as I told you before, apostolic succession. The importance of apostolic succession can be seen in one of the very first actions of the new church when a replacement was chosen to fill Judas' 'office'. As the church grew in size and more preachers, teachers, and ministers of every kind were needed, the apostles would lay hands on these people and ordain them. They passed on the authority that Christ gave to them.
Let me make sure I'm understanding your reasoning here. You say the 'kingdom gospel' was fulfilled at Pentecost, then replaced by the 'new' message (from Paul) of 'grace without works of the law.'
Wow. How in the world did you derive that from scripture. Your way off base Hope. Let me point out a few problems with your theory:
1) There is no scripture that talks of the completion of the gospel preached by Jesus Christ while he was on earth. There is no mention of this idea anywhere in scripture.
2) There is no historical account of such a belief in any writings. That proves this idea of your was recently developed.
3) You claim the apostles weren't preaching 'faith in His shed blood for the remission of sins'. You make this assumption because Peter's discourse to the crowd on Pentecost didn't contain these specific words.
But you are wrong to say Peter didn't preach this message. You must remember Peter was talking to Jews who were already educated in regard to the Messiah. He didn't have to spell it out for them. When Peter made the point that Jesus Christ, the guy they had just crucified, was the Messiah, that's all he needed to say.
4) Your claim also implies that the apostles were in error. If this 'kingdom gospel' was completed on Pentecost and replaced by Paul's new message, why were the apostles preaching the wrong message on and after Pentecost?
5) Your claim indicates that Paul brought this 'new' message that did not include baptism. However, Paul speaks frequently about baptism. For instance, in Romans 6:1-7, Paul describes how we are united through baptism to Christ in His death, and how this death we are joined into by baptism frees us from sin. You can't get a more clear picture of how baptism cleanses us from sin than Pauls words here:
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
You're confused Hope. I said water baptism is what Jesus commanded the apostles to do. You then refer us to John the Baptist saying Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit. I don't deny that Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. But the issue is what baptism did He command the apostles to perform. You then say, 'It was the same baptism that the Baptist spoke of', which we know was performed with water.
Now that you have realized Jesus DID command the apostles to water baptize, we'll start making some serious progress.
Please give me chapter and verse that shows no man has this authority today. You have admitted that Christ gave that power to man, now show me when He took it back or discontinued it.
Wrong again Hope. As one example of an apostle 'baptizing in this manner', look at Acts 8:26-38. Philip baptized the eunuch in water, but only after having preached forgiveness of sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to the eunuch, and the eunuch then professing his belief in Jesus Christ.
The apostles had the power to baptize in that manner. In fact, because Jesus commanded them to baptize in that manner, they had an obligation to baptize in that manner.
Are you out of your mind Hope? If the apostles didn't obey what Jesus commanded of them, then the entire Christian religion has no hope at all. The apostles were the foundation upon which Jesus built His church. By them the writings which are now Holy Scripture came to be. All the lessons Jesus taught them had to be handed on.
You're way off base on this one Hope. It is just your misunderstanding of what you are reading that's confusing you. You seem to be basing your conclusion that the apostles were disobedient because you claim that belief in Jesus Christs sacrifice for our sins wasn't preached at Pentecost. I'm trying to tell you that it was. The Jews already had the OT, they had the prophecies of the Messiah, etc... They didn't completely understand until Peter convinced them that Jesus IS the Messiah. Unfortunately, the Jews just had Jesus crucified just 10 days prior to this, and they were hurt to finally realize what they had done to their savior:
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I'm beginning to realize your whole problem is lack of reading comprehension. The apostles were the one's who were NOT offended by Jesus' 'eat my flesh and drink my blood' comment. After those who were offended walked away, Jesus turned to Peter and asked if they too were going to walk away from Him. Peter in turn replied they believed in Jesus and knew He had the words of life.
At the last supper, Jesus shared His body and blood with the apostles: Jesus broke the bread and gace it to his disciples saying 'take, eat, all of you, for this is my body which will be given up. After they had eaten, he took the cup, again gaves thanks and praise and said take this all of you and drink, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for all so that sins may be forgiven.'
The apostles didn't abstain from eating and drinking Christ's body and blood.
BTW, His body and blood were truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ, but that is a discussion for another time and another thread.
Well, we can finally agree on something. No WE, as in 'you and I' cannot forgive sins.
One must be able to read and comprehend the gospel before preaching it to others. You cannot comprehend even simple things that you read Hope. Please don't endanger other souls for lack of reading comprehension.
Oh really? I don't see any instructions on how the apostles were supposed to perform this 'spirit' baptism. Where do you see 'exactly how we are Spirit baptized?
Jesus explained this very clearly, 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'. Your statement that 'We must "believe" His testament' is correct, but part of His testament was 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved.
Hey, now that's deeeeeeeeeeep. The only thing I can think of that even comes close to being that profound would be this:
Do fish have hooves? Of course not, because birds fly. And I think my saying is even more logical than yours.....
I will be praying for your reading comprehension to improve, Hope.
Now, get busy formulating all those profound thoughts of yours into answers to my previous questions.
God Bless,
Francisco
JustAChristian
New member
Maybe You Missed My Post?
Maybe You Missed My Post?
Freak,
How can you put you trust in Christ without putting your trust in the water? He put the water there! (Acts 8:36-40)
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:36-40 AV)
Do you think that it was coincidental that the Spirit had guided Philip to be in Gaza at just the right moment to catch a chariot going south from Jerusalem without any planning? Hundred of miles separating Philip and the eunuch, and the probability of a pool of water being along the way at just the right time. Philip has been preaching the gospel and teaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, no doubt getting to the point where he should tell the eunuch the necessity of baptism when they come upon a pool of water. Do you thing omniscience of God might have had a part in all this? I believe so! There is WATER IN THE PLAN!!! Pure h²o!! Trust Christ there is WATER in the plan!!!
JustAChristian :angel:
Maybe You Missed My Post?
Freak,
How can you put you trust in Christ without putting your trust in the water? He put the water there! (Acts 8:36-40)
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:36-40 AV)
Do you think that it was coincidental that the Spirit had guided Philip to be in Gaza at just the right moment to catch a chariot going south from Jerusalem without any planning? Hundred of miles separating Philip and the eunuch, and the probability of a pool of water being along the way at just the right time. Philip has been preaching the gospel and teaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, no doubt getting to the point where he should tell the eunuch the necessity of baptism when they come upon a pool of water. Do you thing omniscience of God might have had a part in all this? I believe so! There is WATER IN THE PLAN!!! Pure h²o!! Trust Christ there is WATER in the plan!!!
JustAChristian :angel:
JustAChristian
New member
The Clearly Defined Reason For Baptism...
The Clearly Defined Reason For Baptism...
Gospel preachers and others have affirmed many times that water baptism of a penitent believer of the gospel is for the remission of sins. There have been many preachers that have denied that proposition. These men were preachers for denominational groups who deny that baptism is essential to salvation. I believe that denominational churches that deny baptism is essential to salvation are wrong. Why do these teachers seek to offset the plain and simple teaching of the Bible relative to the purpose of baptism?
Perhaps the best known quibble is the thief on the cross. He is made exhibit A by denominational preachers to try to prove that one is saved without being baptized. The record of his conversation with the Lord is found in Luke 23:42-43. I, for one, would not argue that the thief was not saved. I accept that fact. But does that prove that all can now be saved without being baptized?
We must be careful about attempts to deny what the Lord has to say. Common sense would tell you some things about this case. Suppose you could talk to that thief and ask him some questions. Suppose you were to ask him if he remembered John who stood near the foot of Jesus' cross (John 19:26). Suppose you were to tell him that John, along with nine others, saw this same Jesus three days later after he arose from the dead (John 20:19). Suppose you were to tell him that this same Jesus to whom he spoke, less than two months after he was raised from the dead, told His eleven apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:15-16). Then suppose you were to ask him what he thought about what Jesus had to say about baptism. Would it ever occur to him that one ought not pay any attention to what Jesus had to say? I hardly think so! Here is one who lived before the testament of Jesus was in force, and thus he would not be amenable to such as are we (Heb. 9:16-17). He lived before the giving of the great commission (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). His life and death was in the era of the Law of Moses.
It should be observed that the use of the thief as an opponent against baptism could prove too much. It is a well-known fact that we are to believe in our hearts that God has raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). This is something the thief could not and did not do. Would it follow that this is not now essential because he was not this kind of a believer? If not, then why exclude baptism because it is assumed he had never been baptized?
Another objection to baptism is based on the case of Simon in Acts 8:13-24. Because Simon sinned after he was baptized, it is assumed that this shows baptism would not save a person. It is said that he was still a sinner after he was baptized, so therefore baptism does not save.
Is this really the case? Is it really true that Simon was never saved? If he was not saved, who says he was not? Did Peter say he had never been saved? Did he treat him like an alien sinner who had never been saved. He did not tell Simon to do what he told aliens to do (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:22). Was there one plan for those aliens and another for this alien? Certainly not. Luke records the fact that Simon believed just as the others of Samaria believed. He believed the same thing. He was baptized as they were, and he would be saved just as they were (Mark 16:16). Whatever their baptism did for them his would do for him, and he was treated by Philip as if this were so (Acts 8:13).
The fact that he sinned after he was baptized no more proves that baptism does not save than it proves that believing is not essential. The same verse that says he was baptized also says he believed (Acts 8:12). His sin in trying to buy the power to lay hands on people came after he believed. Surely one would not say this proves believing is not essential. Neither should baptism be made nonessential and ineffective on this basis.
It is argued that baptism is not for the purpose of salvation because numerous passages such as John 3:16 and others do not mention it.
It is true that baptism is not mentioned in John 3:16 and John 3:36. In fact, there are numerous passages that mention faith or believe without mentioning baptism. Such passages also speak of the believer not perishing, having eternal life, and other such blessings. But does that prove baptism is not for the purpose of salvation. Should we conclude this? There are simple responses to such quibbles. For example, none of these passages mentions repentance. Must we conclude that repentance is, therefore, not necessary? Also, take a passage such as 2 Pet. 3:9. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." It should be noted that the passage says one will not perish by coming to repentance. In fact, repentance is all that is mentioned. Would this then eliminate faith? Where is the person who would affirm this? The truth is, nobody would affirm that 2 Pet. 3:9 excludes faith just because this passage does not mention it. On what basis would faith be excluded? On the basis that other passages also have something to say on the matter of one's salvation. On that basis, baptism would have to be included for it is also spoken of as related to man's salvation (1 Pet. 3:21).
It is argued that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, therefore, not of baptism. This is a clear effort to try to place baptism in the realm of that which is excluded. This is drawn from Eph. 2:8-9.
One would not deny that boastful works are excluded. Listen to Paul. "Where is boasting then? It is excluded" (Rom. 3:27). This is in complete harmony with Eph. 2:9. Our works will not save us according to Paul (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5). But does this mean that we are to conclude that Paul was saying baptism does not save us? That is what the teachers of error say, and want us to believe.
JustAChristian :angel:
The Clearly Defined Reason For Baptism...
Gospel preachers and others have affirmed many times that water baptism of a penitent believer of the gospel is for the remission of sins. There have been many preachers that have denied that proposition. These men were preachers for denominational groups who deny that baptism is essential to salvation. I believe that denominational churches that deny baptism is essential to salvation are wrong. Why do these teachers seek to offset the plain and simple teaching of the Bible relative to the purpose of baptism?
Perhaps the best known quibble is the thief on the cross. He is made exhibit A by denominational preachers to try to prove that one is saved without being baptized. The record of his conversation with the Lord is found in Luke 23:42-43. I, for one, would not argue that the thief was not saved. I accept that fact. But does that prove that all can now be saved without being baptized?
We must be careful about attempts to deny what the Lord has to say. Common sense would tell you some things about this case. Suppose you could talk to that thief and ask him some questions. Suppose you were to ask him if he remembered John who stood near the foot of Jesus' cross (John 19:26). Suppose you were to tell him that John, along with nine others, saw this same Jesus three days later after he arose from the dead (John 20:19). Suppose you were to tell him that this same Jesus to whom he spoke, less than two months after he was raised from the dead, told His eleven apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:15-16). Then suppose you were to ask him what he thought about what Jesus had to say about baptism. Would it ever occur to him that one ought not pay any attention to what Jesus had to say? I hardly think so! Here is one who lived before the testament of Jesus was in force, and thus he would not be amenable to such as are we (Heb. 9:16-17). He lived before the giving of the great commission (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). His life and death was in the era of the Law of Moses.
It should be observed that the use of the thief as an opponent against baptism could prove too much. It is a well-known fact that we are to believe in our hearts that God has raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). This is something the thief could not and did not do. Would it follow that this is not now essential because he was not this kind of a believer? If not, then why exclude baptism because it is assumed he had never been baptized?
Another objection to baptism is based on the case of Simon in Acts 8:13-24. Because Simon sinned after he was baptized, it is assumed that this shows baptism would not save a person. It is said that he was still a sinner after he was baptized, so therefore baptism does not save.
Is this really the case? Is it really true that Simon was never saved? If he was not saved, who says he was not? Did Peter say he had never been saved? Did he treat him like an alien sinner who had never been saved. He did not tell Simon to do what he told aliens to do (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:22). Was there one plan for those aliens and another for this alien? Certainly not. Luke records the fact that Simon believed just as the others of Samaria believed. He believed the same thing. He was baptized as they were, and he would be saved just as they were (Mark 16:16). Whatever their baptism did for them his would do for him, and he was treated by Philip as if this were so (Acts 8:13).
The fact that he sinned after he was baptized no more proves that baptism does not save than it proves that believing is not essential. The same verse that says he was baptized also says he believed (Acts 8:12). His sin in trying to buy the power to lay hands on people came after he believed. Surely one would not say this proves believing is not essential. Neither should baptism be made nonessential and ineffective on this basis.
It is argued that baptism is not for the purpose of salvation because numerous passages such as John 3:16 and others do not mention it.
It is true that baptism is not mentioned in John 3:16 and John 3:36. In fact, there are numerous passages that mention faith or believe without mentioning baptism. Such passages also speak of the believer not perishing, having eternal life, and other such blessings. But does that prove baptism is not for the purpose of salvation. Should we conclude this? There are simple responses to such quibbles. For example, none of these passages mentions repentance. Must we conclude that repentance is, therefore, not necessary? Also, take a passage such as 2 Pet. 3:9. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." It should be noted that the passage says one will not perish by coming to repentance. In fact, repentance is all that is mentioned. Would this then eliminate faith? Where is the person who would affirm this? The truth is, nobody would affirm that 2 Pet. 3:9 excludes faith just because this passage does not mention it. On what basis would faith be excluded? On the basis that other passages also have something to say on the matter of one's salvation. On that basis, baptism would have to be included for it is also spoken of as related to man's salvation (1 Pet. 3:21).
It is argued that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, therefore, not of baptism. This is a clear effort to try to place baptism in the realm of that which is excluded. This is drawn from Eph. 2:8-9.
One would not deny that boastful works are excluded. Listen to Paul. "Where is boasting then? It is excluded" (Rom. 3:27). This is in complete harmony with Eph. 2:9. Our works will not save us according to Paul (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5). But does this mean that we are to conclude that Paul was saying baptism does not save us? That is what the teachers of error say, and want us to believe.
JustAChristian :angel:
Last edited:
HopeofGlory
New member
Francisco,
If you weren't so purblind you would understand what I said. Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and it is the spirit words that He spoke that give life.
The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible. The instructions of Christ after the cross were part of the new testament which was in force after the cross (Heb. 9:17) and are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross. It can be clearly seen that Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and that teaching the words He commanded will baptize all that believe. He did not command them to do the baptizing in water yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist which was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. The apostles message at Pentecost is completely void of the new testament for remission so they failed to obey these words of Christ....
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)
The greatest message every to be delivered to the world (Matt 26:28) was not part of the apostles doctrine at Pentecost and the silence of it is deafening.
When asked ... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (John 6:28)
Jesus said...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)
Simple message but few even today have received it. There is no work needed but faith in the words of the Son of God. All that believeve His words are born again.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 (KJV)
The message of eternal life is believe in Christ and nothing more is needed unless you do not believe.
Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and heed God’s warning by not "adding" the word “water”.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)
This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).
The apostles were commanded to preach the word and the truth reveal in the word by the Spirit would baptize them.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but this is not biblical terminology.
#1
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the "spirit" that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).
The new testament is not a series of books starting with the four gospels but is a greater witness given by Christ and was not in force until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17). The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this Spirit baptism is performed by Christ when we believe His words.
The contrast of the baptism in water and the baptism in the word is revealed by Jesus with these words...For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
#2
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)
Again, the teaching but also when one believes the word they are baptized by that word. This baptism (quickening) is received the moment one believes this "spirit" word of Christ and they are born again. Compare these words spoken to Nicodemus...That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Again, Jesus delivered this eternal message to Nicodemus as He did to the apostles...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Nicodemus did not believe this message and Jesus said:
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
This word of the gospel of Christ is spirit and life eternal in the new testament made possible only by His shed blood.
Jesus said....Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
The disciples responded....This is an hard saying; who can hear (believe) it? John 6:60 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
#3
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)
Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death. He did not say remission would be in water baptism. The word of the "new" testament for remission of sins must be believed. Christ is clearly explaining how remission of sins would be received and referring to Isaiah 53 where “it is written” He was to suffer. These scriptures not once mention water baptism.
#4
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! The contrast was further revealed in that the death of Christ for remission of sins superceded water baptism....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.
Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief (Roms 11:19-21) they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Christ Jesus did “NOT” commission the apostles to “WATER” baptize for remission after He gave the NEW TESTAMENT in His blood for remission of sins. Paul was the first man to deliver Christ’s eternal message of remission through His shed blood.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through """faith in his blood""", to declare his righteousness """for the remission of sins""" that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, """at this time""" his righteousness: that he might be just, and the """justifier of him which believeth in Jesus""". Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Receive not the doctrine of men handed down by tradition but believe the words of the Lord Jesus and receive His offer of everlasting life.
In Christ
Craig
If you weren't so purblind you would understand what I said. Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and it is the spirit words that He spoke that give life.
The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible. The instructions of Christ after the cross were part of the new testament which was in force after the cross (Heb. 9:17) and are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross. It can be clearly seen that Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and that teaching the words He commanded will baptize all that believe. He did not command them to do the baptizing in water yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist which was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. The apostles message at Pentecost is completely void of the new testament for remission so they failed to obey these words of Christ....
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)
The greatest message every to be delivered to the world (Matt 26:28) was not part of the apostles doctrine at Pentecost and the silence of it is deafening.
When asked ... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (John 6:28)
Jesus said...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)
Simple message but few even today have received it. There is no work needed but faith in the words of the Son of God. All that believeve His words are born again.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 (KJV)
The message of eternal life is believe in Christ and nothing more is needed unless you do not believe.
Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and heed God’s warning by not "adding" the word “water”.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)
This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).
The apostles were commanded to preach the word and the truth reveal in the word by the Spirit would baptize them.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but this is not biblical terminology.
#1
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the "spirit" that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).
The new testament is not a series of books starting with the four gospels but is a greater witness given by Christ and was not in force until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17). The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this Spirit baptism is performed by Christ when we believe His words.
The contrast of the baptism in water and the baptism in the word is revealed by Jesus with these words...For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
#2
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)
Again, the teaching but also when one believes the word they are baptized by that word. This baptism (quickening) is received the moment one believes this "spirit" word of Christ and they are born again. Compare these words spoken to Nicodemus...That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Again, Jesus delivered this eternal message to Nicodemus as He did to the apostles...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Nicodemus did not believe this message and Jesus said:
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
This word of the gospel of Christ is spirit and life eternal in the new testament made possible only by His shed blood.
Jesus said....Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
The disciples responded....This is an hard saying; who can hear (believe) it? John 6:60 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
#3
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)
Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death. He did not say remission would be in water baptism. The word of the "new" testament for remission of sins must be believed. Christ is clearly explaining how remission of sins would be received and referring to Isaiah 53 where “it is written” He was to suffer. These scriptures not once mention water baptism.
#4
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! The contrast was further revealed in that the death of Christ for remission of sins superceded water baptism....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.
Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief (Roms 11:19-21) they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Christ Jesus did “NOT” commission the apostles to “WATER” baptize for remission after He gave the NEW TESTAMENT in His blood for remission of sins. Paul was the first man to deliver Christ’s eternal message of remission through His shed blood.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through """faith in his blood""", to declare his righteousness """for the remission of sins""" that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, """at this time""" his righteousness: that he might be just, and the """justifier of him which believeth in Jesus""". Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Receive not the doctrine of men handed down by tradition but believe the words of the Lord Jesus and receive His offer of everlasting life.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Francisco,
Your analogy is that of a five year old and your understanding of scripture is on the same level. The death of Christ ushered in a new way of live and that life was eternal. Instruct your daughter in the truth.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
The witness of the Baptist was superceded. Your traditional way of thinking has blinded yours eyes to the truth. The old testament is anything before the new testament was given and the baptism of John in water for remission was before the new testament of His shed blood was effectual (Hebs 9:17).
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14
You continue to miss the point. Man no longer has the authority the remit sins. The new way is totally of God not men.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18
All things became new and ALL things are of God and this includes baptism.
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the ""operation of God"", who hath raised him from the dead.Col. 2:12
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (by the word not water, see John 6:63) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13
When we preach the word of the new testament of His shed blood we apply that blood on all that believe the words.
Sins are not remitted merely by the application of the word but they are remitted when the words are believed and it is the Spirit that reveals the word to the heart of man.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Pet. 3:18
The word that christ died (Matt 26:28) for our sins are spirit and it is the spirit that quickeneth (John 6:63) by the Spirit.
All power or authority was transfered to Christ when He paid the debt for sin at the cross.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt. 28:18
You are so "diluted" by church tradition that you actually believe that men have the authority to remit sins. Your so called holy fathers are an abomination in the eyes of God and not one has the authority to remit sins. If men were to water baptize all nations it would have been a monumental task and I don't believe Paul would have said...
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17
or
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14
The teachings of Paul reveal that water baptism brought division and confusion and God is not the author of such.
The power of God is in His word and we are baptized by the Spirit with those words.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
In Christ
Craig
Your analogy is that of a five year old and your understanding of scripture is on the same level. The death of Christ ushered in a new way of live and that life was eternal. Instruct your daughter in the truth.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
The witness of the Baptist was superceded. Your traditional way of thinking has blinded yours eyes to the truth. The old testament is anything before the new testament was given and the baptism of John in water for remission was before the new testament of His shed blood was effectual (Hebs 9:17).
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14
You continue to miss the point. Man no longer has the authority the remit sins. The new way is totally of God not men.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18
All things became new and ALL things are of God and this includes baptism.
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the ""operation of God"", who hath raised him from the dead.Col. 2:12
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (by the word not water, see John 6:63) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13
When we preach the word of the new testament of His shed blood we apply that blood on all that believe the words.
Sins are not remitted merely by the application of the word but they are remitted when the words are believed and it is the Spirit that reveals the word to the heart of man.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Pet. 3:18
The word that christ died (Matt 26:28) for our sins are spirit and it is the spirit that quickeneth (John 6:63) by the Spirit.
All power or authority was transfered to Christ when He paid the debt for sin at the cross.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt. 28:18
You are so "diluted" by church tradition that you actually believe that men have the authority to remit sins. Your so called holy fathers are an abomination in the eyes of God and not one has the authority to remit sins. If men were to water baptize all nations it would have been a monumental task and I don't believe Paul would have said...
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17
or
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14
The teachings of Paul reveal that water baptism brought division and confusion and God is not the author of such.
The power of God is in His word and we are baptized by the Spirit with those words.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Francisco,
There is only one gospel of the lord Jesus Christ and it was progressively understood by men. The law was in effect until after the cross yet Jesus continually preached His gospel and it was not understood. Paul was called by the Spirit and receive revelations of the truth.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7
Circumcision gospel:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Acts 10:36
Remember Jesus said to the apostles...
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6
Uncircumcision gospel:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal. 1:11
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:12
What, are you saying the bible is not a historical account?
Facts are facts! The new testament was not mentioned at Pentecost for remission. The apostles continued in the witness of the Baptist before the cross (Mark 1:4) (Acts 2:38) for remission. Jews were already educated in the new testament? Is that Judaism? (LOL)
If you reveal a new message to one man, how long will it take for the others to here (believe) it ?
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17
Water baptism does not forgive sins. The Lord Jesus forgives sins.
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Faith is required not water baptism which is a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore a “work” is no longer required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required thus are still in their sins (Rom 11:6).
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25).
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are placed in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".
Water baptism is performed by men to men yet Spirit baptism is an operation of God receive through FAITH not water.
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is by belief in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
There is only one gospel of the lord Jesus Christ and it was progressively understood by men. The law was in effect until after the cross yet Jesus continually preached His gospel and it was not understood. Paul was called by the Spirit and receive revelations of the truth.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7
Circumcision gospel:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Acts 10:36Remember Jesus said to the apostles...
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6
Uncircumcision gospel:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal. 1:11
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:12
What, are you saying the bible is not a historical account?
Facts are facts! The new testament was not mentioned at Pentecost for remission. The apostles continued in the witness of the Baptist before the cross (Mark 1:4) (Acts 2:38) for remission. Jews were already educated in the new testament? Is that Judaism? (LOL)
If you reveal a new message to one man, how long will it take for the others to here (believe) it ?
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17
Water baptism does not forgive sins. The Lord Jesus forgives sins.
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)
Faith is required not water baptism which is a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore a “work” is no longer required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required thus are still in their sins (Rom 11:6).
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)
We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25).
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)
We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are placed in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".
Water baptism is performed by men to men yet Spirit baptism is an operation of God receive through FAITH not water.
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)
This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is by belief in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Francisco,
I will respond to the balance of your post tomorrow.
In Christ
Craig
I will respond to the balance of your post tomorrow.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory:
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt 28)
This should be in your bible too, Hope. Look at the last page of the Gospel of Matthew. I promise you it's there, even though you say ' The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible'.
Now we have 2 choices here:
1) We can believe you and your man-made modern interpretation that boldly claims the apostles were in error for baptizing
OR
2) We can believe that the apostles, the foundation of the church, were carrying out the command Christ gave them, and your interpretation is erroneous.
To back your position, you have a convoluted and self-contradicting message that you privately derived from scripture, has no historical basis, and no substantiation in any recognized Christian writings that I can find. The apostles on the other hand, were taught directly by Jesus. They practically lived with Him for 3 years.
My conclusion is, the apostles knew exactly what Jesus meant when He said 'baptizing them in the name of the Father...', and being faithful servants they began to carry out His message with zeal.
Who was Peter preaching to? Jews, 'devout men' as Acts 2:5 tells us, that were Jerusalem for passover.
How did Peter begin his address to the Jews? By telling the Jews that the speaking in tongues that they were observing was not due to drunkeness, but was what the prophet Joel spoke of in one of his prophecies about salvation. The prophecy ends like this:
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2)
Peter quoted these exact words to the crowd (Acts 2:17-21) to make them understand the time had 'come to pass, that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'.
After Peter got the crowds attention and made them understand he was talking about the Lord who will save us, he immediately declares Jesus of Nazareth is that man, reminding the crowd of the miracles, signs and wonders Jesus performed in their midst.
Then Peter goes on to explain how Jesus was delivered up with the foreknowledge of God to his crucifixion and death, from which God raised Him after 'having loosed the pains of death'. Now pay close attention because this is where your misunderstanding starts. This is a reference to forgiveness of sins. Even though you didn't understand 'pains of death' is referring to sin, and 'having loosed' them refers to forgiving sins, the Jews understood this abundantly. So now the Jews understood that Jesus' death 'loosed' sins.
Then Peter continues, reminding them that David had already prophecied about the resurrection of the Christ (Christ means Messiah or savior) that God would 'raise up' to sit on his throne.
Peter then reaffirms that he and the apostles were witnesses to this resurrected Jesus, and that God has made him both Lord and savior.
When the crowd realized the weight of Peter's words and believed him, they reacted as if 'cut to the heart', saying 'what shall we do'. Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
You see Hope, baptism being the sacrament of faith is how the crowd showed God their faith in the good news they just got from Peter. And by doing so, their sins were remitted. Like Paul said in Romans 6:3 'Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?' That's what Peter meant when he exhorted the crowd to be baptized, to be baptized into Jesus death, the death that 'loosed' the 'pains of death'. And again, Paul delivered the same message loud and clear in Romans 6:7 'For he who has died has been freed from sin.'
When you die and get buried with Christ through baptism, your sins are forgiven and you are made free from sin.
Now, if all that isn't enough to convince you Peter preached the correct gospel on Pentecost, you must still consider this:
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation.
So, Peter used many other words to preach to them about salvation. Can you be sure he didn't use the exact words you would have wanted him to use? No.
So your claim the apostles preached the wrong gospel on Pentecost is both frivolous and erroneous.
On the other hand, I can say I believe ALL of what Jesus said. Nothing He ever said conflicts with my theology.
Baptism is NOT a work of the law. Think of it this way Hope. Was the blind man performing a 'work' when Jesus told him to wash the mud from his eyes in the pool at Siloam to heal his eyesight? No. So why do you automatically assume that washing believers in the waters of baptism is a work of the law?
Baptism in water can be found throughout the NT, so again your claim is completely erroneous.
So what do you think Jesus was telling the apostles to do when He told them to BAPTIZE the nations?
Speaking of Nicodemus, didn't Jesus mention the necessity of being born again, born of water and the spirit? Hmmmm. I'm sure Jesus didn't really mean water here either, did he Hope?
It amazes me always that you don't see the problem with that method. Look at all the disagreement between Christians private interpretation causes.
'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'
'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
God Bless,
Francisco
My vision is fine, thank you. I say it is your reading comprehension that is lacking.
As you have quoted the verses that proclaim the 'Great Commission', this proves your lack of reading comprehension. Or maybe you don't understand what is meant by the 'Great Commission'. I clipped this verbatum from the NKJV, including the heading:
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt 28)
This should be in your bible too, Hope. Look at the last page of the Gospel of Matthew. I promise you it's there, even though you say ' The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible'.
It can be clearly seen that Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and baptize, ' Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'. And as you said, 'yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist'. Yes the apostles continued to baptize for the remission of sin. Even on Pentecost, the day you claim the apostles 'failed to obey these words of Christ' by not preaching faith in Jesus Christ for remission of sin, Peter exhorted baptism for the forgiveness of sin and some 3,000 'were added that day'.
Now we have 2 choices here:
1) We can believe you and your man-made modern interpretation that boldly claims the apostles were in error for baptizing
OR
2) We can believe that the apostles, the foundation of the church, were carrying out the command Christ gave them, and your interpretation is erroneous.
To back your position, you have a convoluted and self-contradicting message that you privately derived from scripture, has no historical basis, and no substantiation in any recognized Christian writings that I can find. The apostles on the other hand, were taught directly by Jesus. They practically lived with Him for 3 years.
My conclusion is, the apostles knew exactly what Jesus meant when He said 'baptizing them in the name of the Father...', and being faithful servants they began to carry out His message with zeal.
This is the core of your mistake, Hope. The message that 'Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross for the remission of the sins of man' was most certainly preached by Peter. I know your looking for those exact words, and they are not there, so I'll try once more to explain this to you.
Who was Peter preaching to? Jews, 'devout men' as Acts 2:5 tells us, that were Jerusalem for passover.
How did Peter begin his address to the Jews? By telling the Jews that the speaking in tongues that they were observing was not due to drunkeness, but was what the prophet Joel spoke of in one of his prophecies about salvation. The prophecy ends like this:
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2)
Peter quoted these exact words to the crowd (Acts 2:17-21) to make them understand the time had 'come to pass, that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'.
After Peter got the crowds attention and made them understand he was talking about the Lord who will save us, he immediately declares Jesus of Nazareth is that man, reminding the crowd of the miracles, signs and wonders Jesus performed in their midst.
Then Peter goes on to explain how Jesus was delivered up with the foreknowledge of God to his crucifixion and death, from which God raised Him after 'having loosed the pains of death'. Now pay close attention because this is where your misunderstanding starts. This is a reference to forgiveness of sins. Even though you didn't understand 'pains of death' is referring to sin, and 'having loosed' them refers to forgiving sins, the Jews understood this abundantly. So now the Jews understood that Jesus' death 'loosed' sins.
Then Peter continues, reminding them that David had already prophecied about the resurrection of the Christ (Christ means Messiah or savior) that God would 'raise up' to sit on his throne.
Peter then reaffirms that he and the apostles were witnesses to this resurrected Jesus, and that God has made him both Lord and savior.
When the crowd realized the weight of Peter's words and believed him, they reacted as if 'cut to the heart', saying 'what shall we do'. Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
You see Hope, baptism being the sacrament of faith is how the crowd showed God their faith in the good news they just got from Peter. And by doing so, their sins were remitted. Like Paul said in Romans 6:3 'Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?' That's what Peter meant when he exhorted the crowd to be baptized, to be baptized into Jesus death, the death that 'loosed' the 'pains of death'. And again, Paul delivered the same message loud and clear in Romans 6:7 'For he who has died has been freed from sin.'
When you die and get buried with Christ through baptism, your sins are forgiven and you are made free from sin.
Now, if all that isn't enough to convince you Peter preached the correct gospel on Pentecost, you must still consider this:
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation.
So, Peter used many other words to preach to them about salvation. Can you be sure he didn't use the exact words you would have wanted him to use? No.
So your claim the apostles preached the wrong gospel on Pentecost is both frivolous and erroneous.
You say to have 'faith in the words of the Son of God', but you refuse to believe in the words He spoke when He told us 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved' and when he told the apostles to teach AND BAPTIZE. You continually contradict yourself, just as your private theology contradicts the words of scripture.
On the other hand, I can say I believe ALL of what Jesus said. Nothing He ever said conflicts with my theology.
Does that include believing Him when He said 'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'? When the gospel tells us to believe in Jesus to be saved, the word 'believe' means more than just intellectual acceptance. It means to believe in Him so completely that we follow His every command without question.
Baptism is NOT a work of the law. Think of it this way Hope. Was the blind man performing a 'work' when Jesus told him to wash the mud from his eyes in the pool at Siloam to heal his eyesight? No. So why do you automatically assume that washing believers in the waters of baptism is a work of the law?
No one is adding the word 'water'. It is there in scripture, for anyone who cares to read it, how the apostles baptized with water. I've already told you, I will not accept your argument that the apostles were in error by baptizing. And no one else that is a Christian could accept that. To accept that kind of blanket error against the apostles, we would in fact be saying our Christian faith is built upon a huge error since the apostles are the foundation of the church.
Baptism in water can be found throughout the NT, so again your claim is completely erroneous.
So what kind of baptism did He command the apostles to perform? Do you think he meant for the apostles to baptize the nations in the 'Spirit'? That can't be, as only the Holy Spirit can 'spirit baptize'.
So what do you think Jesus was telling the apostles to do when He told them to BAPTIZE the nations?
A couple of questions here Hope. If the apostles were ONLY supposed to teach, why did Peter and the apostles perform all those water baptisms? Second, why would Jesus even mention 'baptizing' if all He wanted the apostles to do was to teach? Sorry Hope, your interpretation still doesn't fit.
Baptize in the word? That's a new one. Did you just make that up today? Can you show me chapter and verse where I can read about this baptism in the word?
Speaking of Nicodemus, didn't Jesus mention the necessity of being born again, born of water and the spirit? Hmmmm. I'm sure Jesus didn't really mean water here either, did he Hope?
I'll bet this is another area where you don't really believe what Jesus said. When He said 'For this IS my blood' do you think he really meant it? I didn't think so....
Sorry Hope, just because you can't read specific words from Jesus to the apostles directing them to use water to baptize, does not mean He didn't teach the apostles to baptize in that manner. The apostles actions testify to how He taught them to baptize, in water.
Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms? Where? Are you confusing this with John contrasting the two baptism? If so, I would submit that John was contrasting the two baptizERS, not the baptisms themselves.
Nothing can be evidenced by the comparison of something to itself. Let's compare a tree with itself. How much can we tell about the tree? How about comparing you with yourself Hope. Let's see if Hope is short or tall, we'll just compare him with himself.....
It amazes me always that you don't see the problem with that method. Look at all the disagreement between Christians private interpretation causes.
I believe the words of the Lord:
'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'
'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
God Bless,
Francisco
HopeYouGrowABRainandLearnHowtoRead:
'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'
And since you will not accept the copious scriptural evidences I've shown for water baptism as a sacrament, I think you are wasting our time with your responses.
Please don't bother. You've already convinced me that you refuse to trust the plain words of Jesus Christ:
'He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'
And since you will not accept the copious scriptural evidences I've shown for water baptism as a sacrament, I think you are wasting our time with your responses.