HopeofGlory
New member
You love to hide behind derision but it does nothing to help your pathetic lack of spiritual understanding.
In Christ
Craig
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
You love to hide behind derision but it does nothing to help your pathetic lack of spiritual understanding.
In Christ
Craig
Sorry Hope, but your replies are ridiculous. Or maybe your inability to express your thoughts just makes it all seem convoluted. Regardless, I have no interest in discussing this or any other subject with someone who has no reason about them.
Jerry and I disagree sharply, but at least he expresses his arguments clearly, and replies to my challenges. You and Freak just sound like broken records, making the same baseless charges without ever responding directly to my challenges.
I hope the Lord leads you to the truth.
God Bless,
Francisco
Jerry and I disagree sharply, but at least he expresses his arguments clearly, and replies to my challenges. You and Freak just sound like broken records, making the same baseless charges without ever responding directly to my challenges.
I hope the Lord leads you to the truth.
God Bless,
Francisco
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Maybe we were just arguing semantics before. When you were saying Christ did away with the law, I took you literally.
As for the traditions you claim originated in paganism, it doesn't make any difference to me Jerry. It's just like the tradition of husband and wife wearing wedding rings. Although this tradition had a pagan origin, it has been a Christian tradition for over a thousand years, and most importantly, it is harmless.
In regard to the many beliefs that are shared between Christian and non-Christian religions, you could never prove which originated where. For me it is enough to know that the Church has held to our beliefs from the beginning. This would include people like Ignatius and Clement, both discipled directly by an apostle. If these men believed that we were 'regenerated' through baptism, and that is what the Church has held to throughout the ages, that's enough for me.
And I really believe baptismal regeneration has a solid scriptural basis. A few posts back we looked at Romans 6 where Paul talks about being dead to sin and alive in God through baptism into the death of Jesus Christ. That's what baptismal regeneration is about. And there are plenty of verses I could quote here, as you well know.
I'll be out of town and without internet access for a few days Jerry, so a response to any comments you may have will be delayed.
God Bless,
Francisco
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Francisco,
I cannot find any evidence that either Ignatius of Antioch or Clement ever knew any of the Apostles,nor have I read anything in their writings where either says that submitting to a rite of "water" baptism saves anyone.
However,an examination of the writings of some of the men who are quoted to support the myth of "baptismal regeneration" reveal that they used terms in reference to "water baptism" that are unknown in the Holy Scriptures.Instead,the terms they use come straight from the pagan religions.
As early as Justin Martyr we see a change in the name,and this name comes straight from the Greek mysteries (the Eleusinian Mysteries).Justin refers to the "baptismal regeneration" as the "enlightment".Another term he used in reference to submitting to this rite is "initiated":
"...learn to know the Christ of God,BE INITIATED,and live a life of happiness"("Justin
ialogue with Trypho a Jew",#8).
This term,"initiate" "was used of initiation into the pagan mysteries"("Marcus Aurelius and His Times",p.259).
Also,the name "seal" also came from the Greek mysteries and in the early church "was used partly on those who had passed the test and who were 'consignati',as Tertullian calls them,partly of those who were actually sealed upon the forehead in sign of new ownership"(Anderson,"The Bible or the Church",p.121).
The term "musterion" (mystery) came to be applied to the rite of water baptism.Again,this is not a term that is applied to the rite of water baptism in the Holy Scriptures,but it is a term that describes "baptismal regeneration" of the Greek Mysteries.
Also,"as those who were admitted to the inner sights of the mysteries had a formula or password,so the catechumens,on the eve of their baptism,were entrusted with the secret formula--the very word for it was borrowed from the mysteries--and the communication of it was an important preparatory rite"(Anderson,"The Bible or the Church",p.122-123).
So we see that the myth of "baptismal regeneration" came from the pagan religions,and is not Scriptual.
In His grace,--Jerry
I cannot find any evidence that either Ignatius of Antioch or Clement ever knew any of the Apostles,nor have I read anything in their writings where either says that submitting to a rite of "water" baptism saves anyone.
However,an examination of the writings of some of the men who are quoted to support the myth of "baptismal regeneration" reveal that they used terms in reference to "water baptism" that are unknown in the Holy Scriptures.Instead,the terms they use come straight from the pagan religions.
As early as Justin Martyr we see a change in the name,and this name comes straight from the Greek mysteries (the Eleusinian Mysteries).Justin refers to the "baptismal regeneration" as the "enlightment".Another term he used in reference to submitting to this rite is "initiated":
"...learn to know the Christ of God,BE INITIATED,and live a life of happiness"("Justin
ialogue with Trypho a Jew",#8).This term,"initiate" "was used of initiation into the pagan mysteries"("Marcus Aurelius and His Times",p.259).
Also,the name "seal" also came from the Greek mysteries and in the early church "was used partly on those who had passed the test and who were 'consignati',as Tertullian calls them,partly of those who were actually sealed upon the forehead in sign of new ownership"(Anderson,"The Bible or the Church",p.121).
The term "musterion" (mystery) came to be applied to the rite of water baptism.Again,this is not a term that is applied to the rite of water baptism in the Holy Scriptures,but it is a term that describes "baptismal regeneration" of the Greek Mysteries.
Also,"as those who were admitted to the inner sights of the mysteries had a formula or password,so the catechumens,on the eve of their baptism,were entrusted with the secret formula--the very word for it was borrowed from the mysteries--and the communication of it was an important preparatory rite"(Anderson,"The Bible or the Church",p.122-123).
So we see that the myth of "baptismal regeneration" came from the pagan religions,and is not Scriptual.
In His grace,--Jerry
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HopeofGlory
New member
Perhaps it's your unwillingness or inability to understand the expressed thoughts of others that disagree with your unholy fathers. I can't accept your reasoning becaused it is unscriptural and expresses the tradition of men. You hold the doctrine of men (fathers and apostles) above the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter is your go to man and his doctrine is steeped in the law therefore I conclude that your replies are ridiculas.
You displayed your ability to comprehend the thoughts of others when you argued about the law being removed and then agreed to the arguments and said..." Maybe we were just arguing semantics".
As to your responses, they were mainly ridicule without any scriptural bases and deserved no response. You remind me of a spoiled child that stomps his feet and screams because he doesn't get what he wants. Daddy whips you and then you run to mommy so she can make it all better.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Water baptism under the law!
Water baptism under the law!
Tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual immersion commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean yet it was only a shadow of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Baptism in the gospels and mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)
In the old testament we read that before giving the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The Mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).
John was that voice crying in the wilderness!
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).
The Hebrew word mikveh means "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering of the nations at Pentecost for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23 and in 11 Chronicles 4:2 describing the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
The only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism by tradition was added. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.
Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.
Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah had this to say concerning converts to Judaism:
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."
Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is believed to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh. Peter reflected this same belief when he required the Gentile Cornelius to be baptized.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47 (KJV)
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Acts 10:36 (KJV)
Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing pagan or wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous may have disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, His baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after Christ gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
The New Covenant or New Testament requires faith in the blood of Christ for remission (Rom. 3:25) as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing. Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and uncleanness by the blood of Christ, and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death (I Cor. 12:13), so that God might raise us even as Christ himself rose from the dead by the operation of God.
Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. Indeed, that is why God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. This biblical order is revealed in the gospels as the Baptist prepared Israel was as priest by water baptism to receive Jesus who was the Sacrifice. The confusion in the order is based on their misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what be believe but they reveal it as a cleansing ritual under the Mosaic law to prepare for the Sacrifice. Because of Christ's sacrifice, believers are cleansed spiritually and forgiven of their sin. Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Testament is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the fulfillment of the Mosaic law is found in the power of the cross (Col. 1:19-20) and not by works of righteousness. Paul by revelation (Gal 1:12) said:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
In Christ
Craig
Water baptism under the law!
Tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual immersion commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean yet it was only a shadow of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Baptism in the gospels and mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)
In the old testament we read that before giving the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The Mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).
John was that voice crying in the wilderness!
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).
The Hebrew word mikveh means "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering of the nations at Pentecost for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23 and in 11 Chronicles 4:2 describing the huge, circular "Sea of Solomon," constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
The only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism by tradition was added. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.
Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.
Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah had this to say concerning converts to Judaism:
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."
Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is believed to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh. Peter reflected this same belief when he required the Gentile Cornelius to be baptized.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47 (KJV)
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Acts 10:36 (KJV)Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing pagan or wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous may have disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, His baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after Christ gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
The New Covenant or New Testament requires faith in the blood of Christ for remission (Rom. 3:25) as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing. Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and uncleanness by the blood of Christ, and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death (I Cor. 12:13), so that God might raise us even as Christ himself rose from the dead by the operation of God.
Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. Indeed, that is why God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. This biblical order is revealed in the gospels as the Baptist prepared Israel was as priest by water baptism to receive Jesus who was the Sacrifice. The confusion in the order is based on their misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what be believe but they reveal it as a cleansing ritual under the Mosaic law to prepare for the Sacrifice. Because of Christ's sacrifice, believers are cleansed spiritually and forgiven of their sin. Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Testament is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the fulfillment of the Mosaic law is found in the power of the cross (Col. 1:19-20) and not by works of righteousness. Paul by revelation (Gal 1:12) said:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
In Christ
Craig
JustAChristian
New member
External Evidences on Baptism For The Remission of Sins...
External Evidences on Baptism For The Remission of Sins...
Jerry requested external evidence on the essentiality of baptism for the remission of sins.
110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Letter to Polycarp 6).
115AD Second Clement "For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?' (Second Clement 6:7)
120-205 AD IRENAEUS "As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, "Fragments From Lost Writings", no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)
120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)
140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, 'the waters' were the first to receive the precept 'to bring forth living creatures.' Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life." (Tertullian, "On Baptism," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)
Hope this will help your study. I got “stacks of this stuff” if you need more external evidences.
JustAChristian :thumb:
External Evidences on Baptism For The Remission of Sins...
Jerry requested external evidence on the essentiality of baptism for the remission of sins.
110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Letter to Polycarp 6).
115AD Second Clement "For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?' (Second Clement 6:7)
120-205 AD IRENAEUS "As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, "Fragments From Lost Writings", no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)
120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)
140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, 'the waters' were the first to receive the precept 'to bring forth living creatures.' Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life." (Tertullian, "On Baptism," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)
Hope this will help your study. I got “stacks of this stuff” if you need more external evidences.
JustAChristian :thumb:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The writers of the New Testament were men ,without exception,whose mind had been formed by the study of the Hebrew Scriptures.However,there was not even one of of the post-apostoloic Fathers of who this could be said.
While closer in time to the Apostles,their minds were seeped in the teachings and thoughts of Pagan religions.Therefore,it is no suprise that those in Rome adopted the teachings of many of the Pagan cults.
To us who recognize the difference between spirit and matter the idea that the body could be washed from sin by water is pure nonsense.However,this made perfect sense to those who had been taught in Pagan philosophy.
Even today,you can find Catholic sites that believe that evil spirits can attach themselves to water.
The early corrupters of Christianity transferred to their new religion a rite which they were familiar which--baptismal regeneration.
And the idea that the soul could be washed from sin goes all the way back to the mysteries of Babylon.These mysteries are common in practically all the Pagan religions scattered throughout the world.
In his book,"Conquest of Mexico",Prescott described the rite in use in that country at the time the Spanish landed on its shores.The priestess midwife sprinkled water on the head of the infant,and then,after exorcising the unclean spirit,she said these words:
"He now liveth anew and is born anew;now he is purified and clean".
So no matter how many quotes one can provide from the early Greek church Fathers to support the idea of "baptismal regeneration",the fact remains that their teaching comes directly from the Pagan religions.
In His grace,--Jerry
While closer in time to the Apostles,their minds were seeped in the teachings and thoughts of Pagan religions.Therefore,it is no suprise that those in Rome adopted the teachings of many of the Pagan cults.
To us who recognize the difference between spirit and matter the idea that the body could be washed from sin by water is pure nonsense.However,this made perfect sense to those who had been taught in Pagan philosophy.
Even today,you can find Catholic sites that believe that evil spirits can attach themselves to water.
The early corrupters of Christianity transferred to their new religion a rite which they were familiar which--baptismal regeneration.
And the idea that the soul could be washed from sin goes all the way back to the mysteries of Babylon.These mysteries are common in practically all the Pagan religions scattered throughout the world.
In his book,"Conquest of Mexico",Prescott described the rite in use in that country at the time the Spanish landed on its shores.The priestess midwife sprinkled water on the head of the infant,and then,after exorcising the unclean spirit,she said these words:
"He now liveth anew and is born anew;now he is purified and clean".
So no matter how many quotes one can provide from the early Greek church Fathers to support the idea of "baptismal regeneration",the fact remains that their teaching comes directly from the Pagan religions.
In His grace,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
Boy! The Devil has really got you, son! My external evidence is not worth a "hill of beans" but you can use yours! Wow!
JustAChristian
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
My external evidence proves that these early church fathers used the language of the Pagan religions when it came to describing the rite of water baptism.You made no comment on that whatsoever.
I guess that you do not believe that they got the idea of "baptismal regeneration" from the Pagan cults and their use of the same identical language is just one big coincidence!
In His grace,--Jerry
I guess that you do not believe that they got the idea of "baptismal regeneration" from the Pagan cults and their use of the same identical language is just one big coincidence!
In His grace,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
What Do I Believe?
What Do I Believe?
Jerry,
Whatever you want to call it or how ever you want to handle it, the internal evidence is plain that one is to be "born of the water and of the spirit" in order to enter heaven (John 3:3-5). Baptism is a part of the the new birth (1 Peter 1:22-23), for baptism is of the truth. It was commanded by an apostle of the Lord (Acts 10:47-48) who spoke at the inspiration of the Spirit.(John 14:26). There is no duration of immersion for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:38). Nor is there a deminishing of purpose (Gal. 3:27). Members of the Lord's church were baptized before they came into the family of God (Acts 2:41-47). There is no salvation outside of the family of God (2 Cor. 5:17). Therefore, baptism is essential before one can be saved (Mark 16:16). It is not being saved by the water but using the appointed medium with the blood of Christ to be spiritually cleansed.
JustAChristian :angel:
What Do I Believe?
Jerry,
Whatever you want to call it or how ever you want to handle it, the internal evidence is plain that one is to be "born of the water and of the spirit" in order to enter heaven (John 3:3-5). Baptism is a part of the the new birth (1 Peter 1:22-23), for baptism is of the truth. It was commanded by an apostle of the Lord (Acts 10:47-48) who spoke at the inspiration of the Spirit.(John 14:26). There is no duration of immersion for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:38). Nor is there a deminishing of purpose (Gal. 3:27). Members of the Lord's church were baptized before they came into the family of God (Acts 2:41-47). There is no salvation outside of the family of God (2 Cor. 5:17). Therefore, baptism is essential before one can be saved (Mark 16:16). It is not being saved by the water but using the appointed medium with the blood of Christ to be spiritually cleansed.
JustAChristian :angel:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
Those of us who have received the Spirit of God can understand that salvation is a FREE GIFT that comes to all that believe (1Cor.2:12).
But those who have not the Spirit continue to teach that the "gift" of salvation is not so free after all.They say that "faith" is not enough,but instead the sinner must "work" for that gift by submitting to a rite of water baptism.
They do not have the understanding of those who have received the enlightment that the Holy Spirit provides (1Cor.2:14).
They often attempt to use the words of the Lord to Nicodemus in order to place the believer under works.However,they do not even understand the words of the Lord in this instance.
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"(Jn.3:5).
Here the Lord is speaking in "type".A "type" is an illustration using "temporal" things in order to teach a Spiritual truth.The "type" represents a "temporal" or "earthly" thing,while the "anti-type" represents "Spiritual" or "heavenly" things.
And how do we know that the Lord was speaking in "types"?
Well,he told Nicodemus,"If I have told you earthly things,and ye believe not,how shall ye believe,if I tell you heavenly things"(Jn.3:12).
Those who have not received the Spirit of God cannot distinguish between "earthly" things and "heavenly" things.They cannot understand Paul´s words to compare "spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13).They insist on comparing things of the earth,such as water,to Spiritual things such as salvation.
In His words to Nicodemus,the Lord says that Nicodemus should have understood what he was speaking about (Jn.3:10).
Nicodemus should have been aware of the "types" of Scripture which speak of "the water and the Spirit",such as the prophecy of Ezekiel:
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you...and a new spirit will I put into you"(Ez.36:25,26).
The very next chapter is an illustration in TYPE that describes the NEW BIRTH of Israel.And in that illustration,we see that Israel will be born again when the Jews "hear the word of the Lord" and when the Lord puts His Spirit in them (Ez.37:4,5).
So just as Israel will be born again when they believe the word of the Lord that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit,so shall the sinner be saved when he believes the word and is BAPTIZED into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13,27).
So before you attempt to use the language of "type" in your efforts to place the Christian under works,perhaps you will attempt to understand the "deep things of God"(1Cor.2:10).
In the present dispensation,there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5),and that is the baptism when the believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
To deny that this is the ONE BAPTISM and continue to insist that a water baptism is the only baptism is a perfect example of someone who cannot distinuguish between things of the Spirit and things of the earthly sphere.
They are unable to compare "spiritual things with spiritual".
In His grace,--Jerry
Those of us who have received the Spirit of God can understand that salvation is a FREE GIFT that comes to all that believe (1Cor.2:12).
But those who have not the Spirit continue to teach that the "gift" of salvation is not so free after all.They say that "faith" is not enough,but instead the sinner must "work" for that gift by submitting to a rite of water baptism.
They do not have the understanding of those who have received the enlightment that the Holy Spirit provides (1Cor.2:14).
They often attempt to use the words of the Lord to Nicodemus in order to place the believer under works.However,they do not even understand the words of the Lord in this instance.
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"(Jn.3:5).
Here the Lord is speaking in "type".A "type" is an illustration using "temporal" things in order to teach a Spiritual truth.The "type" represents a "temporal" or "earthly" thing,while the "anti-type" represents "Spiritual" or "heavenly" things.
And how do we know that the Lord was speaking in "types"?
Well,he told Nicodemus,"If I have told you earthly things,and ye believe not,how shall ye believe,if I tell you heavenly things"(Jn.3:12).
Those who have not received the Spirit of God cannot distinguish between "earthly" things and "heavenly" things.They cannot understand Paul´s words to compare "spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13).They insist on comparing things of the earth,such as water,to Spiritual things such as salvation.
In His words to Nicodemus,the Lord says that Nicodemus should have understood what he was speaking about (Jn.3:10).
Nicodemus should have been aware of the "types" of Scripture which speak of "the water and the Spirit",such as the prophecy of Ezekiel:
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you...and a new spirit will I put into you"(Ez.36:25,26).
The very next chapter is an illustration in TYPE that describes the NEW BIRTH of Israel.And in that illustration,we see that Israel will be born again when the Jews "hear the word of the Lord" and when the Lord puts His Spirit in them (Ez.37:4,5).
So just as Israel will be born again when they believe the word of the Lord that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit,so shall the sinner be saved when he believes the word and is BAPTIZED into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13,27).
So before you attempt to use the language of "type" in your efforts to place the Christian under works,perhaps you will attempt to understand the "deep things of God"(1Cor.2:10).
In the present dispensation,there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5),and that is the baptism when the believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
To deny that this is the ONE BAPTISM and continue to insist that a water baptism is the only baptism is a perfect example of someone who cannot distinuguish between things of the Spirit and things of the earthly sphere.
They are unable to compare "spiritual things with spiritual".
In His grace,--Jerry
JustAChristian
New member
Responding To Jerry's Post...
Responding To Jerry's Post...
Responding To Jerry's Post...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
Yousay that water baptism is a law of Christ,and you give Matthew 28:18-20 to back up what you say.However,the Lord also told His disciplples to teach all "to observe all things I have commanded you"(Mt.28:20).
Does that mean that it remains the Lord´s command to follow the law?That is one of the things that the Lord commanded His discples to do:
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses´seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do"(Mt.23:2,3).
According to your logic,we should continue to follow those who sit in Moses´seat.
But the Lord´s command was only operative as long as the law remained in force.We must realize that the revelation of the Lord is progressive.It was not until later that it revealed that no one was to remain under the law (Ro.6:14) so no one was obligated any longer to follow those who sit in Moses´seat.The same can be said about His command to be baptized with water.At one time that was a command of the Lord,but now it is revealed that there is only one baptism,and that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Yes,Paul did baptize in water during the Acts period.But the epistle to the Ephesians,which declares that there is now only one baptism,was written after the Acts period.Again.progressive revelation.
Just because most local congregations continue to practice a rite which is no longer operative does not make the word of God invalid.At the present time there is only "one" baptism,and that baptism is by the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
In His grace,--Jerry
Yousay that water baptism is a law of Christ,and you give Matthew 28:18-20 to back up what you say.However,the Lord also told His disciplples to teach all "to observe all things I have commanded you"(Mt.28:20).
Does that mean that it remains the Lord´s command to follow the law?That is one of the things that the Lord commanded His discples to do:
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses´seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do"(Mt.23:2,3).
According to your logic,we should continue to follow those who sit in Moses´seat.
But the Lord´s command was only operative as long as the law remained in force.We must realize that the revelation of the Lord is progressive.It was not until later that it revealed that no one was to remain under the law (Ro.6:14) so no one was obligated any longer to follow those who sit in Moses´seat.The same can be said about His command to be baptized with water.At one time that was a command of the Lord,but now it is revealed that there is only one baptism,and that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Yes,Paul did baptize in water during the Acts period.But the epistle to the Ephesians,which declares that there is now only one baptism,was written after the Acts period.Again.progressive revelation.
Just because most local congregations continue to practice a rite which is no longer operative does not make the word of God invalid.At the present time there is only "one" baptism,and that baptism is by the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
In His grace,--Jerry
HopeofGlory
New member
Behold all things are become new and all things are of God!!
In the beginning the earth was created by the Word of God. The very breath or Spirit of God moved and the visible realm of our existence was created (Gen. 1:2). We are bound to this earthly realm by the flesh and it appears we must die of the flesh to enter the Spiritual realm (Roms. 8:8-10). We know that Christ created the world (Col. 1:16) therefore we can know that Christ is the Spirit or Word of God (2 Cor. 3:17). John tells us that the Word is the light of men (John 1:4) and Christ Jesus is that light (Luke 2:32). The Spirit that brought light to the darkness on the face of the deep (Genesis 1:2-3) is the same light that “shineth” in the darkness of the heart of man (John 1:5). Christ in the beginning was Spirit and He was made flesh (John 1:14) to enter into the earthly realm of man to deliver a eternal redemptive message of His death (John 6:54). The natural man cannot receive this offer of eternal life (2 Cor. 2:14) because it is spiritually discerned. When Christ Jesus ascended back to the Father He regained the form He had when life was spoke into existence at the beginning (Col. 1:15) as the Light (John 1:7) that “shineth in darkness”. His appearance to Saul on Damascus road (Acts 9:3-7) testifies to this truth. Saul fell to the ground immersed in the light as John did (Rev. 1:17) at the appearance of the great Light and today that Light shines in or immerses the hearts of men (Eph. 3:16-21). These appearances clearly reveal His transformation and they are in great contrast to the resurrected Jesus of the flesh before His ascension.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
Yes, Christ is that Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) that baptizes us into the body (1 Cor. 12:13). How this occurs is revealed to us by Jesus in the book of John.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
His spoken words in reference to the New Testament (Matt. 26:28)(John 6:54) released man from his flesh and created the way for us to step into the Spiritual realm of eternity. Christ Jesus is explaining these words are “spirit” and that they had the power to “quickeneth” (Titus 3:5) thus granting eternal life. Here we have two of the “Spiritual elements” that are required to step into eternity. The Spirit (ascended Christ) and the Word ( spirit words spoken by Christ before ascension) and yet there is a third who is the Father of lights (James 1:17-18). In the name of the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Ghost the record is witnessed from heaven to man that Christ shed forth blood and water (John 19:34) to cleanse and sanctify believers.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
While we look not at the things which are seen (earthly elements), but at the things which are not seen (Spiritual elements): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
The contrast of the earthly things and the heavenly things are revealed to us in the words spoken to Nicodemus concerning the need to be born again by the Spirit as Christ tells him he has not received “our witness” (1 John 5:7).
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)
The “pure” water (Heb. 10:22) is the word of God that now washes us by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:11) was purchased with the blood of Christ (Heb. 10:19) and it has become the “new” and living way (Heb. 10:20). It is the blood that cleanses (1 John 1:7) and the blood that sanctifies (Heb. 12:13) and the blood that washes us white (Rev. 7:14) without spot (1 Pet. 1:19).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Phil. 3:18 (KJV)
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Phil. 3:19 (KJV)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil. 3:20 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
In the beginning the earth was created by the Word of God. The very breath or Spirit of God moved and the visible realm of our existence was created (Gen. 1:2). We are bound to this earthly realm by the flesh and it appears we must die of the flesh to enter the Spiritual realm (Roms. 8:8-10). We know that Christ created the world (Col. 1:16) therefore we can know that Christ is the Spirit or Word of God (2 Cor. 3:17). John tells us that the Word is the light of men (John 1:4) and Christ Jesus is that light (Luke 2:32). The Spirit that brought light to the darkness on the face of the deep (Genesis 1:2-3) is the same light that “shineth” in the darkness of the heart of man (John 1:5). Christ in the beginning was Spirit and He was made flesh (John 1:14) to enter into the earthly realm of man to deliver a eternal redemptive message of His death (John 6:54). The natural man cannot receive this offer of eternal life (2 Cor. 2:14) because it is spiritually discerned. When Christ Jesus ascended back to the Father He regained the form He had when life was spoke into existence at the beginning (Col. 1:15) as the Light (John 1:7) that “shineth in darkness”. His appearance to Saul on Damascus road (Acts 9:3-7) testifies to this truth. Saul fell to the ground immersed in the light as John did (Rev. 1:17) at the appearance of the great Light and today that Light shines in or immerses the hearts of men (Eph. 3:16-21). These appearances clearly reveal His transformation and they are in great contrast to the resurrected Jesus of the flesh before His ascension.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
Yes, Christ is that Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) that baptizes us into the body (1 Cor. 12:13). How this occurs is revealed to us by Jesus in the book of John.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
His spoken words in reference to the New Testament (Matt. 26:28)(John 6:54) released man from his flesh and created the way for us to step into the Spiritual realm of eternity. Christ Jesus is explaining these words are “spirit” and that they had the power to “quickeneth” (Titus 3:5) thus granting eternal life. Here we have two of the “Spiritual elements” that are required to step into eternity. The Spirit (ascended Christ) and the Word ( spirit words spoken by Christ before ascension) and yet there is a third who is the Father of lights (James 1:17-18). In the name of the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Ghost the record is witnessed from heaven to man that Christ shed forth blood and water (John 19:34) to cleanse and sanctify believers.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
While we look not at the things which are seen (earthly elements), but at the things which are not seen (Spiritual elements): for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:18 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
The contrast of the earthly things and the heavenly things are revealed to us in the words spoken to Nicodemus concerning the need to be born again by the Spirit as Christ tells him he has not received “our witness” (1 John 5:7).
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)
The “pure” water (Heb. 10:22) is the word of God that now washes us by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:11) was purchased with the blood of Christ (Heb. 10:19) and it has become the “new” and living way (Heb. 10:20). It is the blood that cleanses (1 John 1:7) and the blood that sanctifies (Heb. 12:13) and the blood that washes us white (Rev. 7:14) without spot (1 Pet. 1:19).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Phil. 3:18 (KJV)
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Phil. 3:19 (KJV)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phil. 3:20 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
JustAChristian
New member
Serving To Jerry...
Serving To Jerry...
My serves will be in bold type
Jerry serves...
Yousay that water baptism is a law of Christ,and you give Matthew 28:18-20 to back up what you say.However,the Lord also told His disciplples to teach all "to observe all things I have commanded you"(Mt.28:20).
So, what is you point?
Jerry:
Does that mean that it remains the Lord ́s command to follow the law?That is one of the things that the Lord commanded His discples to do:
That involved situations before the cross. That is elementary to a bible student. I thought I was working with a bible student.
Jerry:
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses ́seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do"(Mt.23:2,3).
According to your logic,we should continue to follow those who sit in Moses ́seat.
Ibid.
Jerry:
But the Lord ́s command was only operative as long as the law remained in force.We must realize that the revelation of the Lord is progressive.
Maybe I'll give you a second chance. There might be a possibility that you might be able to grasp enough to understand the truth.
Jerry:
It was not until later that it revealed that no one was to remain under the law (Ro.6:14)
Seems like somewhere I read about a "jot" or "tittle" (Matthew 5:18). Hmmm... Your serve!
Jerry:
so no one was obligated any longer to follow those who sit in Moses ́seat.The same can be said about His command to be baptized with water.
You mean all those on Pentecost and throughout the book of Acts; that didn't mean nothing?!!! You mean when Paul told those Ephesians who had been baptized with John's baptism to be re-baptized that did mean a thing?!!! Wow! You just killed 50% of the New Testament. Love - 15 your serve!
Jerry:
At one time that was a command of the Lord,but now it is revealed that there is only one baptism,and that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jerry, you've got your mind all messed up on Dispensationalism and its gonna have to take a lot of "spiritual surgery" to get you straightened out. Lets start first with what Paul told the Galatian churches: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2 AV). Now, what can we learn from this. Paul concludes there are two possibilities for receiving the Holy Spirit. One is by the Law of Moses. The other is "by the hearing of faith." He asked a rhetorical question; you know what a rhetorical question is, don't you Jerry? It demands a Yes or No answer and nothing else. Paraphrasing, Paul said, "How did you get the Holy Spirit; by keeping the Law of Moses or by hearing (unto doing what is found to do)of faith? More simply saying, "How did you get the Spirit? Obeying Moses' Law or Obeying Christ's Law? It's a "no brainer" isn't it Jerry? It's was by keeping the Law of Christ. You see, the Holy Spirit doesn't come on someone today independent of the obedience of faith (Romans 1:16). When Jesus sent his apostles into all the world, he told them to make disciples. How? By teaching and baptizing them. That command has not ended as of today. Christians are made disciples today by first teaching them and then baptizing them. What comes with the baptism? According to Peter's preaching, the Holy Spirit is a gift given to believers (Acts 2:38). So, Paul's statement "...Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" should make a little more sense to you. There is one baptism today (Eph. 4:5) and it is the one that we receive the Holy Spirit as a gift and that washes away our sins (Acts 22:16) and that saves us (1 Peter 3:19-21). That is immersion in water for the remission of sins. Love - 30, your serve!
Jerry:
Yes,Paul did baptize in water during the Acts period.But the epistle to the Ephesians,which declares that there is now only one baptism,was written after the Acts period.Again.progressive revelation.
A.T. Robertson, a noted Greek scholar and author dating the writing of Acts favors...
“Before 70 AD. This date is supported by Blass, Headlam, Maclean, Rackham, Salmon. Harhack, indeed, considers that "very weighty considerations" argue for the early date. He, as already stated, now takes his stand for the early date. It obviously the simplest way to understand Luke's close of the Acts to be due to the fact that Paul was still in prison. Harnack contends that the efforts to explain away this situation are not "quite satisfactory or very illuminating." He does not mention Paul's death because he was still alive. The dramatic purpose to bring Paul to Rome is artificial. The supposition of a third book from the use of proton in Acts 1:1 is quite gratuitous, since in the Koine, not to say the earlier Greek, "first was often used when only two were mentioned (compare "our first story" and "second story," "first wife" and "second wife"). The whole tone of the book is that which one would naturally have before 64 AD. After the burning of Rome and the destruction of Jerusalem the attitude maintained in the book toward Romans and Jews would have been very difficult unless the date was a long times afterward Harnack wishes "to help a doubt to its lust dues." That "doubt" of Harnack is destined to become the certainty of the future. (Since this sentence was written Harnack has settled his own doubt.) The book will, I think, be finally credited to the time 63 AD in Rome. The Gospel of Luke will then naturally belong to the period of Paul's imprisonment in Caesarea. The judgment of Moffatt (Historical New Testament, 190:1, 416) that "it cannot be earlier than 80 AD is completely upset by the powerful attack of Harnack on his own previous position. See also Moffatt's Introduction to the Literature of the New Testament (1911)...”
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
Of the Letter to the Ephesians, Charles S. Lewis in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“The time and place of his writing Ephesians turn on the larger question of the chronology of Paul's life (see PAUL) and the relation of the Captivity Epistles to each other; and the second question whether they were written from Caesarea or Rome (for this see PHILEMON, EPISTLE TO). Suffice it here to say that the place was undoubtedly Rome, and that they were written during the latter part of the two years' captivity which we find recorded in Acts 28:30. The date will then be, following the later chronology, 63 or 64 AD; following the earlier, which is, in many ways, to be preferred, about 58 AD.”
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
The book of Acts of the Apostles is placed somewheres before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70; perhaps about AD 64. The letter to the Ephesians sometimes about the same time from Rome. So your argument that one being written after the other and cancels out one is an invalid argument. Progressive revelation is accepted by me, but there is no progressive revelation here. The baptism with the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at Pentecost for the purpose of bestowing power on them as promised by Christ (Luke 24:49). The Apostles were then able to preach “with power” and do all manner of miracles. The Spirit came upon the household of Cornelius during Peter’s preaching (Acts 10). That household could only speak in tongues. The manifestation was to prove to the Jewish brethren that the gospel was extended to the Gentiles (Acts 2:39; Eph. 2:17). The gift of the Spirit is to all believers who are immersed (Acts 2:38); even to the household of Cornelius (2 Cor. 1:22). Holy Spirit baptism never cleansed of sins but believing the command of Jesus and being immersed for the remission of sin has availed many for many centuries. Love - fourty!
Jerry:
Just because most local congregations continue to practice a rite which is no longer operative does not make the word of God invalid. At the present time there is only "one" baptism,and that baptism is by the Holy Spirit:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
The Holy Spirit baptism was to instill power on the Apostles and to convene the Jewish brethren that Gentiles were to receive the gospel. Both has been accomplished. There is no more manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Paul tells us that we receive the Spirit "by hearing of faith" (Gal. 3:2). Peter said, "Repent and be baptized and you shall received the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Hear +Repent+baptized = salvation and receiving the "earnest of the Spirit as a token of that salvation. Point, set and match!
JustAChristian :angel:
Serving To Jerry...
My serves will be in bold type
Jerry serves...
Yousay that water baptism is a law of Christ,and you give Matthew 28:18-20 to back up what you say.However,the Lord also told His disciplples to teach all "to observe all things I have commanded you"(Mt.28:20).
So, what is you point?
Jerry:
Does that mean that it remains the Lord ́s command to follow the law?That is one of the things that the Lord commanded His discples to do:
That involved situations before the cross. That is elementary to a bible student. I thought I was working with a bible student.
Jerry:
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses ́seat.All,therefore,whatever they bid you observe,that observe and do"(Mt.23:2,3).
According to your logic,we should continue to follow those who sit in Moses ́seat.
Ibid.
Jerry:
But the Lord ́s command was only operative as long as the law remained in force.We must realize that the revelation of the Lord is progressive.
Maybe I'll give you a second chance. There might be a possibility that you might be able to grasp enough to understand the truth.
Jerry:
It was not until later that it revealed that no one was to remain under the law (Ro.6:14)
Seems like somewhere I read about a "jot" or "tittle" (Matthew 5:18). Hmmm... Your serve!
Jerry:
so no one was obligated any longer to follow those who sit in Moses ́seat.The same can be said about His command to be baptized with water.
You mean all those on Pentecost and throughout the book of Acts; that didn't mean nothing?!!! You mean when Paul told those Ephesians who had been baptized with John's baptism to be re-baptized that did mean a thing?!!! Wow! You just killed 50% of the New Testament. Love - 15 your serve!
Jerry:
At one time that was a command of the Lord,but now it is revealed that there is only one baptism,and that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jerry, you've got your mind all messed up on Dispensationalism and its gonna have to take a lot of "spiritual surgery" to get you straightened out. Lets start first with what Paul told the Galatian churches: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2 AV). Now, what can we learn from this. Paul concludes there are two possibilities for receiving the Holy Spirit. One is by the Law of Moses. The other is "by the hearing of faith." He asked a rhetorical question; you know what a rhetorical question is, don't you Jerry? It demands a Yes or No answer and nothing else. Paraphrasing, Paul said, "How did you get the Holy Spirit; by keeping the Law of Moses or by hearing (unto doing what is found to do)of faith? More simply saying, "How did you get the Spirit? Obeying Moses' Law or Obeying Christ's Law? It's a "no brainer" isn't it Jerry? It's was by keeping the Law of Christ. You see, the Holy Spirit doesn't come on someone today independent of the obedience of faith (Romans 1:16). When Jesus sent his apostles into all the world, he told them to make disciples. How? By teaching and baptizing them. That command has not ended as of today. Christians are made disciples today by first teaching them and then baptizing them. What comes with the baptism? According to Peter's preaching, the Holy Spirit is a gift given to believers (Acts 2:38). So, Paul's statement "...Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" should make a little more sense to you. There is one baptism today (Eph. 4:5) and it is the one that we receive the Holy Spirit as a gift and that washes away our sins (Acts 22:16) and that saves us (1 Peter 3:19-21). That is immersion in water for the remission of sins. Love - 30, your serve!
Jerry:
Yes,Paul did baptize in water during the Acts period.But the epistle to the Ephesians,which declares that there is now only one baptism,was written after the Acts period.Again.progressive revelation.
A.T. Robertson, a noted Greek scholar and author dating the writing of Acts favors...
“Before 70 AD. This date is supported by Blass, Headlam, Maclean, Rackham, Salmon. Harhack, indeed, considers that "very weighty considerations" argue for the early date. He, as already stated, now takes his stand for the early date. It obviously the simplest way to understand Luke's close of the Acts to be due to the fact that Paul was still in prison. Harnack contends that the efforts to explain away this situation are not "quite satisfactory or very illuminating." He does not mention Paul's death because he was still alive. The dramatic purpose to bring Paul to Rome is artificial. The supposition of a third book from the use of proton in Acts 1:1 is quite gratuitous, since in the Koine, not to say the earlier Greek, "first was often used when only two were mentioned (compare "our first story" and "second story," "first wife" and "second wife"). The whole tone of the book is that which one would naturally have before 64 AD. After the burning of Rome and the destruction of Jerusalem the attitude maintained in the book toward Romans and Jews would have been very difficult unless the date was a long times afterward Harnack wishes "to help a doubt to its lust dues." That "doubt" of Harnack is destined to become the certainty of the future. (Since this sentence was written Harnack has settled his own doubt.) The book will, I think, be finally credited to the time 63 AD in Rome. The Gospel of Luke will then naturally belong to the period of Paul's imprisonment in Caesarea. The judgment of Moffatt (Historical New Testament, 190:1, 416) that "it cannot be earlier than 80 AD is completely upset by the powerful attack of Harnack on his own previous position. See also Moffatt's Introduction to the Literature of the New Testament (1911)...”
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
Of the Letter to the Ephesians, Charles S. Lewis in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“The time and place of his writing Ephesians turn on the larger question of the chronology of Paul's life (see PAUL) and the relation of the Captivity Epistles to each other; and the second question whether they were written from Caesarea or Rome (for this see PHILEMON, EPISTLE TO). Suffice it here to say that the place was undoubtedly Rome, and that they were written during the latter part of the two years' captivity which we find recorded in Acts 28:30. The date will then be, following the later chronology, 63 or 64 AD; following the earlier, which is, in many ways, to be preferred, about 58 AD.”
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
The book of Acts of the Apostles is placed somewheres before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70; perhaps about AD 64. The letter to the Ephesians sometimes about the same time from Rome. So your argument that one being written after the other and cancels out one is an invalid argument. Progressive revelation is accepted by me, but there is no progressive revelation here. The baptism with the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at Pentecost for the purpose of bestowing power on them as promised by Christ (Luke 24:49). The Apostles were then able to preach “with power” and do all manner of miracles. The Spirit came upon the household of Cornelius during Peter’s preaching (Acts 10). That household could only speak in tongues. The manifestation was to prove to the Jewish brethren that the gospel was extended to the Gentiles (Acts 2:39; Eph. 2:17). The gift of the Spirit is to all believers who are immersed (Acts 2:38); even to the household of Cornelius (2 Cor. 1:22). Holy Spirit baptism never cleansed of sins but believing the command of Jesus and being immersed for the remission of sin has availed many for many centuries. Love - fourty!
Jerry:
Just because most local congregations continue to practice a rite which is no longer operative does not make the word of God invalid. At the present time there is only "one" baptism,and that baptism is by the Holy Spirit:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).
The Holy Spirit baptism was to instill power on the Apostles and to convene the Jewish brethren that Gentiles were to receive the gospel. Both has been accomplished. There is no more manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Paul tells us that we receive the Spirit "by hearing of faith" (Gal. 3:2). Peter said, "Repent and be baptized and you shall received the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Hear +Repent+baptized = salvation and receiving the "earnest of the Spirit as a token of that salvation. Point, set and match!
JustAChristian :angel:
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JustAChristian
New member
Buring The Old Man of Sin To Enter Heaven...
Buring The Old Man of Sin To Enter Heaven...
“ If Jesus says we must be born again, then there must be something wrong with our first birth”
The thing wrong with the “first birth” is that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, “There is none righteous, no not one” (Rom. 3:10). “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s Book of life” (Rev 21:27). He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5). Nicodemus needed to be reborn because his physical life was not sufficient to gain heavens domain. Like every one who lives on the earth, unless there is obedience to the command to be born of the water and the Spirit, one cannot enter heaven. This is done when one “...obey (s) from the hear that form of doctrine which was delivered you” (Rom.6:17). What is the form of doctrine which was delivered you? It is the gospel. This is all that the apostles delivered unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Therefore to obey the gospel is to be born again (Hebrews 5:8-9). Jesus told the apostles “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel (the good news of God’s salvation, justification glorification (grace) to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieveth shall be damned” (Mark 16:15-16).
David was born into a world riddled with sin. No one is born a sinner as the Calvinist and Catholics teach, because the Bible plainly teaches that “...the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). Man is not born evil but digresses at an early age. The Catholics tried to dodge this issue by making Mary “immaculate” saying that she did not inherit sin so the Jesus would not be born with sin, but it is a “wresting of the scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). Ezekiel also wrote that man does not inherit sin saying, “ The soul that sinneth it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezekiel 18:20).
As for David recognizing his need of a new birth. This concept was never preached by any prophet before Jesus (John 1:17). Those under the preaching of the OLD Testament prophets and the law were to be in obedient to the law. This did not save them, but their righteousness is observed in their faith (see Hebrews 11 for the family of faith), and the blood of Christ covers them (Heb. 9:15). Jesus requires a new nature called “the new birth” under the NEW Testament. “Whosoever will can partake of the waters of life”, not just a predetermined number that is numbered by God. God gives man free will and he must exercise it in obedience of faith (Rom 1:5).
Holy Spirit baptism was not possible to bury the old man of sin. We are to bury the old man of sin. The old man of sin is buried in water baptism Since baptism by immersion is essential to the burial of the old man of sin. And since the old man of sin cannot enter into heaven, therefore, it is essential that one be baptized in water in order to enter heaven. If not ,why not?
“He that believeth”...excludes babies. Babies are “safe” until they know that they have sinned. It is essential to repent, but the concept of repentance comes at an age of understanding.
JustAChristian
Buring The Old Man of Sin To Enter Heaven...
“ If Jesus says we must be born again, then there must be something wrong with our first birth”
The thing wrong with the “first birth” is that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “As it is written, “There is none righteous, no not one” (Rom. 3:10). “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s Book of life” (Rev 21:27). He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5). Nicodemus needed to be reborn because his physical life was not sufficient to gain heavens domain. Like every one who lives on the earth, unless there is obedience to the command to be born of the water and the Spirit, one cannot enter heaven. This is done when one “...obey (s) from the hear that form of doctrine which was delivered you” (Rom.6:17). What is the form of doctrine which was delivered you? It is the gospel. This is all that the apostles delivered unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Therefore to obey the gospel is to be born again (Hebrews 5:8-9). Jesus told the apostles “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel (the good news of God’s salvation, justification glorification (grace) to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that disbelieveth shall be damned” (Mark 16:15-16).
David was born into a world riddled with sin. No one is born a sinner as the Calvinist and Catholics teach, because the Bible plainly teaches that “...the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). Man is not born evil but digresses at an early age. The Catholics tried to dodge this issue by making Mary “immaculate” saying that she did not inherit sin so the Jesus would not be born with sin, but it is a “wresting of the scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). Ezekiel also wrote that man does not inherit sin saying, “ The soul that sinneth it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezekiel 18:20).
As for David recognizing his need of a new birth. This concept was never preached by any prophet before Jesus (John 1:17). Those under the preaching of the OLD Testament prophets and the law were to be in obedient to the law. This did not save them, but their righteousness is observed in their faith (see Hebrews 11 for the family of faith), and the blood of Christ covers them (Heb. 9:15). Jesus requires a new nature called “the new birth” under the NEW Testament. “Whosoever will can partake of the waters of life”, not just a predetermined number that is numbered by God. God gives man free will and he must exercise it in obedience of faith (Rom 1:5).
Holy Spirit baptism was not possible to bury the old man of sin. We are to bury the old man of sin. The old man of sin is buried in water baptism Since baptism by immersion is essential to the burial of the old man of sin. And since the old man of sin cannot enter into heaven, therefore, it is essential that one be baptized in water in order to enter heaven. If not ,why not?
“He that believeth”...excludes babies. Babies are “safe” until they know that they have sinned. It is essential to repent, but the concept of repentance comes at an age of understanding.
JustAChristian
smilax
New member
Psalms li, 5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Ephesians ii, 3: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Ephesians ii, 3: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
JustAChristian,
You confuse what you call "Holy Spirit Baptism" with the event when the Holy Spirit baptizes a believer into the body of Christ.
When the believer is baptized into the body of Christ,it is the Holy Spirit Who is the baptizer:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
On the other hand,the Holy Spirt baptism,as you call it,was indeed given on the day of Pentecost to those who believed.That baptism was for "power" (Acts1:8).In this baptism it is the Lord Jesus Who is the baptizer (Lk.3:16).And all those who were baptized with water received this gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts2:38).So this baptismis entirely different that the baptismwhen the believer is baptized into His body.
And as you correctly point out,"there is no more manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit."
So I can see that you are beginning to see that there does in fact exist a progressive revelation of the Lord´s plan and purposes.
Today there is only one baptism in God´s plan and purpose,and that is when the believer is baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
In order to keep your "water baptism" you attempt to say that the baptism by the Holy Spirit is no longer in effect.So therefore,there is only one baptism,and that is with water.You must therefore believe that at one time the believer was baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit but now that is not the case.That baptism has been done away with.
Well,pray tell,how does the Christian enter the body of Christ now?
Next,the point I raised was that the epistle to the Ephesians was written after the Acts period.
And by your own words it was written at the very end of the Acts period,and by this time there had been no mention of anyone being baptized with water for many years.And Paul himself said that the Lord told him that he would be receiving progressive revelation as time went by (Acts26:16).And one of those revelations is the fact that now there is only one baptism,and that baptism is when the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ.
In fact,you can search all of Paul´s prison epistles as well as all the general epistles,and there is not even one word in regard to the rite of "water baptism".If submitting to a rite of water baptism is necessary for salvation,don´t you thinkthere would be at least one mention of that fact in all of these epistles?
But these is none!Instead,we read that there is only one baptism.And that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit to place the believer into the body of Christ.
In His grace,--Jerry
You confuse what you call "Holy Spirit Baptism" with the event when the Holy Spirit baptizes a believer into the body of Christ.
When the believer is baptized into the body of Christ,it is the Holy Spirit Who is the baptizer:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).
On the other hand,the Holy Spirt baptism,as you call it,was indeed given on the day of Pentecost to those who believed.That baptism was for "power" (Acts1:8).In this baptism it is the Lord Jesus Who is the baptizer (Lk.3:16).And all those who were baptized with water received this gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts2:38).So this baptismis entirely different that the baptismwhen the believer is baptized into His body.
And as you correctly point out,"there is no more manifestation of the baptism with the Holy Spirit."
So I can see that you are beginning to see that there does in fact exist a progressive revelation of the Lord´s plan and purposes.
Today there is only one baptism in God´s plan and purpose,and that is when the believer is baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
In order to keep your "water baptism" you attempt to say that the baptism by the Holy Spirit is no longer in effect.So therefore,there is only one baptism,and that is with water.You must therefore believe that at one time the believer was baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit but now that is not the case.That baptism has been done away with.
Well,pray tell,how does the Christian enter the body of Christ now?
Next,the point I raised was that the epistle to the Ephesians was written after the Acts period.
And by your own words it was written at the very end of the Acts period,and by this time there had been no mention of anyone being baptized with water for many years.And Paul himself said that the Lord told him that he would be receiving progressive revelation as time went by (Acts26:16).And one of those revelations is the fact that now there is only one baptism,and that baptism is when the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ.
In fact,you can search all of Paul´s prison epistles as well as all the general epistles,and there is not even one word in regard to the rite of "water baptism".If submitting to a rite of water baptism is necessary for salvation,don´t you thinkthere would be at least one mention of that fact in all of these epistles?
But these is none!Instead,we read that there is only one baptism.And that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit to place the believer into the body of Christ.
In His grace,--Jerry
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JustAChristian
New member
Shapen InIniquity?!
Shapen InIniquity?!
smilax is trying to prove Original Sin and that we inherit sin....right smilax? Well, let’s see what the whole of the Bible says about that...
When small children were brought to Jesus His disciples protested against it. The savior responded: "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14). On another occasion Jesus set a small child in the midst of the disciples and said: "Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 128:3).
Some people teach that small children come into this world totally blackened by sin, wholly inclined to evil, and incapable of good because of sin inherited from their parents. The term is "Hereditary Total Depravity" and is one of the major tenets of Calvinism. The mother who caresses her child in loving gratitude can be thankful our Lord knew more about the kingdom of heaven than theologians who teach such a heartless doctrine. Ezekiel 18:1-20 teaches that the small child will only be responsible only for his or her own sins, and does not inherit sin from its parents. Sin is a transgression of God's law. (1 John 3:4;5:17), and cannot be inherited. The Bible says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Now think about this; Jesus was born of a woman, correct? Why would He have not inherited sin, if sin is inherited? Well a noted religious group dodged this bullet saying that His mother had an “immaculate conception” and that Jesus was, therefore, born without sin. A convenient conclusion, isn't it? But the Bible says that sin comes from breaking the law. The baby has violated no law! Again Sin is defined as a neglect to do good. (James 4:17). The Bible says, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin". The small child has neglected no duty at birth. We know that a baby is incapable of performing a duty. It is absurd to think that a child has sin at birth.
Many draw the wrong conclusion and misinterpret the scriptures on what David said in the Psalms. David did say: "In sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) No one can be sure what sin he may have been alluding to, or if he was making a general statement as to the time of his birth, as we might say regarding our living surrounded by sin as long as we are upon the earth. One thing we are certain, David was not guilty of any sin mentioned in this passage, and no application of Bible teaching can attribute the guilt of this sin to him. All erroneous and mistaken views of men to the contrary, the newborn baby enters this world pure, sinless, a fit subject for heaven--- SAFE from all charges of guilt and sin.
Let’s be honest with ourselves and have a look at sin and its origin. Sin comes from Satan. Jesus said to the multitude on one occasion, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44). You see, Satan originated lying, for he is the father of lies. The apostle John continues in his first general epistle saying, "He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). Satan's influence on the hearts of men and women cause them to sin. The Bible says, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things that defile a man..." (Matthew 15:19,20). A baby cannot do these things and be defiled. Satan's deception causes man to sin. He is the father of deception, and the Bible tells us that he was cast out of heaven saying, "...the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Sin has many characteristics; too many to expound on at this time.
JustAChristian :angel:
Shapen InIniquity?!
smilax is trying to prove Original Sin and that we inherit sin....right smilax? Well, let’s see what the whole of the Bible says about that...
When small children were brought to Jesus His disciples protested against it. The savior responded: "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14). On another occasion Jesus set a small child in the midst of the disciples and said: "Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 128:3).
Some people teach that small children come into this world totally blackened by sin, wholly inclined to evil, and incapable of good because of sin inherited from their parents. The term is "Hereditary Total Depravity" and is one of the major tenets of Calvinism. The mother who caresses her child in loving gratitude can be thankful our Lord knew more about the kingdom of heaven than theologians who teach such a heartless doctrine. Ezekiel 18:1-20 teaches that the small child will only be responsible only for his or her own sins, and does not inherit sin from its parents. Sin is a transgression of God's law. (1 John 3:4;5:17), and cannot be inherited. The Bible says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Now think about this; Jesus was born of a woman, correct? Why would He have not inherited sin, if sin is inherited? Well a noted religious group dodged this bullet saying that His mother had an “immaculate conception” and that Jesus was, therefore, born without sin. A convenient conclusion, isn't it? But the Bible says that sin comes from breaking the law. The baby has violated no law! Again Sin is defined as a neglect to do good. (James 4:17). The Bible says, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin". The small child has neglected no duty at birth. We know that a baby is incapable of performing a duty. It is absurd to think that a child has sin at birth.
Many draw the wrong conclusion and misinterpret the scriptures on what David said in the Psalms. David did say: "In sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) No one can be sure what sin he may have been alluding to, or if he was making a general statement as to the time of his birth, as we might say regarding our living surrounded by sin as long as we are upon the earth. One thing we are certain, David was not guilty of any sin mentioned in this passage, and no application of Bible teaching can attribute the guilt of this sin to him. All erroneous and mistaken views of men to the contrary, the newborn baby enters this world pure, sinless, a fit subject for heaven--- SAFE from all charges of guilt and sin.
Let’s be honest with ourselves and have a look at sin and its origin. Sin comes from Satan. Jesus said to the multitude on one occasion, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44). You see, Satan originated lying, for he is the father of lies. The apostle John continues in his first general epistle saying, "He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). Satan's influence on the hearts of men and women cause them to sin. The Bible says, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things that defile a man..." (Matthew 15:19,20). A baby cannot do these things and be defiled. Satan's deception causes man to sin. He is the father of deception, and the Bible tells us that he was cast out of heaven saying, "...the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Sin has many characteristics; too many to expound on at this time.
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