The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[cirisme]

That's not what I'm talking about.

You throw out scripture that says(or seems to say) that baptism is necessary for salvation.

And that is not good. :nono:

 

[JustAChristian]

And the beat goes on...

And the beat goes on...

Originally posted by Jaltus
You are saying that death bed conversions do not count?

What about the thief on the cross?

You seem to have a few narrative holes in your theology.

You are saying that death bed conversions do not count?

Does the New Testament mention anything about "death bed conversions?" No! That is a man made doctrine.

What about the thief on the cross?

The thief on the cross was saved by the grace of God through his faith in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ as well (Eph. 2:8-9), but our faith must demonstrate obedient faith (Heb. 5:8-9). Once Christ died, his last will and testament went into effect. Before that, he could speak sins forgiven and often did. The thief on the cross is indeed a unique occasion of salvation, but today we have to be save by believing and being baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).

You seem to have a few narrative holes in your theology.

Point them out and if you are correct I will address them or quit posting on this web site.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[cirisme]

The thief on the cross was saved by the grace of God through his faith in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ as well (Eph. 2:8-9), but our faith must demonstrate obedient faith (Heb. 5:8-9). Once Christ died, his last will and testament went into effect. Before that, he could speak sins forgiven and often did. The thief on the cross is indeed a unique occasion of salvation, but today we have to be save by believing and being baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).

Wow, that's one of the best defenses I've heard on the topic. :thumb:

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

I'm not arguing that faith doesn't bring justification. It does! And through the sacrament of faith, baptism, the sanctifying grace of God is bestowed on believers. That is why Jesus said 'whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved', Mk 16:16. God wants us to SHOW Him our faith, and baptism has been the prescribed method of showing God our faith since Jesus commanded the apostles 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'. Why would Jesus command the apostles to do this in such an emphatic way if baptism wasn't really important, has no effect, as you say? And surely you know how much God likes us to SHOW our faith? If not, you should read the account of the near-sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. Abraham certainly believed in God and accepted him as his savior before he began the sacrifice of his only son, but through the act of submitting to God's will and offering Him his only son, God highly rewarded Abraham making him the father of nations whose descendants are as numerous as grains of sand on the beach.

In regard to Galatians 3:24, I'll be happy to 'tackle' that one, as you requested. 'Wherefor the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified.' Doesn't look like much to tackle here. I've already agreed that faith in Christ is what justifies us. How does this conflict with water baptism?

OK, I'll tackle the other two you mentioned. Let's look at John 3:15 first. 'That whosoever believeth in him shall not perish'. Again, I don't see much to tackle here. There is no conflict with water baptism, since that is our prescribed method of showing that we 'believeth in him'. Again, my theology absolutely agrees with this verse, and I can see no way it bolsters your argument that the baptism Jesus said was necessary at Mk 16:16, somehow isn't really necessary.

Now let's look at Romans 5:1. 'Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:' And once more there seems no conflict with baptism here at all. As I've said repeatedly, baptism is the sacrament of FAITH, the same faith that leads to our justification and then salvation.

Knowing that we all agree, that through the act of Jesus' death and resurrection Jesus won our salvation, it is ridiculous to say baptism isn't necessary for entry into salvation when St. Paul tells us that is exactly how it is done:

4. Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.(Rom6:4-6)

Paul is very clearly saying that through BAPTISM we are joined into Jeus' death, the death that brought OUR SALVATION. And that in so doing, our old carnal self is crucified with Christ so our sins 'might be done away with.' Paul couldn't say it any clearer than this. This should help you resolve the conflicts you have between justification through faith, and entry into our salvation through baptism. Of course it won't coalesce with your present man-made theology, but you have to make a decision to let your heart be open to the truth, or continue ignoring the very emphatic message scripture brings us about the importance of baptism.

So Freak, do you want to be buried with Christ, so that your sins 'might be done away with' so you can be in the likeness of His death and also in the likeness of His resurrection?

 

[Francisco]

JustAChristian,

The thief on the cross was saved by the grace of God through his faith in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ as well (Eph. 2:8-9), but our faith must demonstrate obedient faith (Heb. 5:8-9). Once Christ died, his last will and testament went into effect. Before that, he could speak sins forgiven and often did. The thief on the cross is indeed a unique occasion of salvation, but today we have to be save by believing and being baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).

Excellent comment! I would like to point out though, that water baptism is the normative way for us to enter into salvation. There are two other types of 'baptism' that can actually suffice in lieu of water baptism, that is the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire.

The 'baptism of blood' is a term used to describe the type of 'baptism' received by a previously unbaptized martyr. Particularly during the persecutions the early church suffered, it was often very difficult to baptize a person due to the secrecy under which the church was forced to exist. Often, people who had become believers in Jesus Christ, but had not yet been baptized, were martyred by the Romans. Because Jesus gave a guarantee that whoever died because of him would receive the kingdom of heaven as their reward, this martyr's baptism fulfills the joining into Jesus' death that is the entry into salvation, and this fulfills the purpose for which Jesus prescribed water baptism as the normative means.

There is also the baptism of desire. This would apply to the thief on the cross, who so strongly desired unity with Jesus just moments before his death. Because the thief truly desired that union, he surely would have been water baptized if it had been possible. But because that would have been impossible as he hung on the cross next to Jesus, this baptism of desire fulfills the same purpose as water baptism.

The only time martyr's baptism or baptism of desire replace the normative method of baptism by water, is when there is no opportunity for the individual to be baptized by the normative means before their death.

So yes, Jaltus, death bed conversions count if the individual truly desires unity with Christ and has no opportunity to be water baptized before their death.

 

[Freak]

Cir, says incorrectly: You throw out scripture that says(or seems to say) that baptism is necessary for salvation.

I believe justification is by faith in Christ not by baptism. So, it is apparent you are not up in regards to the issues being discussed on this thread. Hence, this will be last response to you.

Francisco, states: Excellent comment! I would like to point out though, that water baptism is the normative way for us to enter into salvation.

Not true at all! Jesus said in John 10:9 to enter through Him for salvation not through water baptism. Again, you are incorrectly intrepreting the Word of God.

You also state: Again, I don't see much to tackle here. There is no conflict with water baptism, since that is our prescribed method of showing that we 'believeth in him'.

Beleiveth on Him is simply that believing on Him not water baptism. Jesus is enough. There is no need for water.

Then amazingly you say: As I've said repeatedly, baptism is the sacrament of FAITH, the same faith that leads to our justification and then salvation.

That is a unScriptural view you have embraced there. Romans 5:1 tells us justification comes through faith. No mention of water. You are adding to Scripture to think otherwise. Baptism does not lead to justification but faith does. You have the cart before the horse once again!

You asked me: So Freak, do you want to be buried with Christ,

I did that many years ago when I was justified as I put my faith in the risen Christ. Water was simply a symbol of the inner transformation that had already occurred. Water is not God. Water is the created. I have trusted in the Creator!

So, tell me where in Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:24, and John 3:15 water baptism is mentioned as a key to being justified. It seems to me faith in Christ is what justifies you before God and then water baptism is merely a symbol of that reality!

 

[HopeofGlory]

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17

The water baptized at Pentecost believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception concerning the nation of Israel as a whole with John the Baptist. This national priestly remission (Ex. 19:6) through obedience was in effect (Mark 1 :4) before the New testament (Matt 26:28) of His shed blood "for" remission was given. The simplicity of this truth is clearly revealed. The Peterine message at Pentecost was the same as John the Baptist’s message before the cross (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38). It is of extreme importance that we understand the new testament message of the cross is a better witness (John 5:36) and was not effectual until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17).

The kingdom was taken because of their unbelief.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom. 11:19 (KJV)
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom. 11:20 (KJV)

Branches are believers (John 15:5) not unbelievers! They were to continue to abide until all things had become "new". It is the new that they did not believe. The new message became a Gentile message...Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles... Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

Israel was God's chosen to deliver this "new" testament (better witness) to the world but because of unbelief it went to the Gentiles.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)

The elect that became believers through repentance and water baptism were enemies of the gospel of Christ but He will graft them in AGAIN.

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:27 (KJV)
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. Rom. 11:28 (KJV)
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:29 (KJV)
For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom. 11:30 (KJV)
Even so have these (elect) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom. 11:31 (KJV)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom. 11:32 (KJV)
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom. 11:33 (KJV)


The Gentiles freely accepted the new eternal testament (Acts 13:48) because they were without the offence (law) of the cross (Roms. 5:20). It is a matter of simple logic to realize one trained from birth that the law of obedience gives remission will not easily understand a “new’ testimony completely opposite of the old testimony in that the law is an offence to the new. This was the monumental task given to Paul and is evident in all his epistles. Paul’s knowledge of the “new” testament came by revelation of mysteries that were progressively revealed.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph. 3:8 (KJV)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph. 3:9 (KJV)
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:10 (KJV)
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph. 3:11 (KJV)

God’s purpose was to deliver the “eternal” message of the “new” testament. If the apostles at Pentecost had clearly delivered that “incorruptible eternal” message of the blood of Christ for remission of sins then there would have been no need for Christ to have called Paul into the ministry. The eternal message would now have to be received through the Gentiles.

Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)

Those of us who believe the new testament for remission are chosen by God to deliver the eternal message whereby we can have all men see what is the manifold wisdom of God.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 1 Tim. 6:12 (KJV)

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Pet. 3:15 (KJV)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Cor. 13:1 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1 John 5:9 (KJV)

The three witnesses agreed in One when Christ shed spirit , water, and blood at His death on the cross.

We know God is not a respecter of persons therefore His requirements to receive Spiritual baptism will not change in regards to a dispensation. The witness of John the Baptist under the law was to manifest Jesus as the son of God to Israel and this manifestation was completed by Peter at Pentecost.

To be considered a member of the body of Christ we must profess the greater witness (John 5:36) for sin remission (Rom. 3:25). This greater witness was not revealed at Pentecost and the message of Acts 2:38 is void of this witness. As salvation for us is concerned we must believe Christ died to receive remission and it’s only through faith in His blood remission is freely given.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Water baptism is not the gospel of Christ! The shed blood of Christ surpassed water as the agent for remission of sins. Paul was the first man to proclaim the Gospel of Christ.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1 Cor. 15:1 (KJV)
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1 Cor. 15:2 (KJV)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor. 15:3 (KJV)

V1 - Paul declares the "gospel" in which we stand.

V2 - He says if we do not believe it then we have believed in vain!

V3 - He says he was the first to deliver it and that "gospel is "Christ died for our sins".

Paul also had this to say:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

Paul understands that water baptism made the cross of Christ of none effect as to remission of sins. Water baptism from its inception before the cross was for remission of sins but we have a new message in the new testament given by Christ for remission of sins. The new has replaced the old and if one believes the old testimony then the new testimony is of none effect.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20 (KJV)

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:6 (KJV)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Eph. 1:7 (KJV)
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Eph. 1:8 (KJV)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Eph. 1:9 (KJV)

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col. 1:13 (KJV)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col. 1:14 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[JustAChristian]

Let Me Suggest Further Consideration...

Let Me Suggest Further Consideration...

Originally posted by Francisco
JustAChristian,
Excellent comment! I would like to point out though, that water baptism is the normative way for us to enter into salvation. There are two other types of 'baptism' that can actually suffice in lieu of water baptism, that is the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire...So yes, Jaltus, death bed conversions count if the individual truly desires unity with Christ and has no opportunity to be water baptized before their death.

Francisco,

Sympathetic situations often “fathered” unique doctrines. The Mormons have their baptism for the dead. The Jehovah’s Witness have their “second chance to salvation.” Desperate citizens seeking some avenue for a frail and sickly relative or friend. All of which are based on a misguided but, perhaps, good intentions. We can not live beyond the scriptures and expect acceptance of our intents. Jesus said, “...ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32). The truth tells us Jesus’ last will and testament. Prior to His ascension he delivered this testament to his disciples over a three and one-half year period. It is declared to be the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25). Through it is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). We know clearly and without reservations that baptism is of the gospel (Mark 16:16). We know that by it Christ’s blood generates the cleansing of sins (Acts 22:16). We know that the apostle Paul knew it to be the exclusive baptism for the believer to obey (Eph. 4:5). What we do not know is a baptism of blood or a baptism of desire. These seem to be “good intention” effort of, perhaps honest, but misguided individuals. Since Paul did not preach such doctrine it become a foreign doctrine to be rejected (Gal. 1:6-10). Since Peter or the disciples of Jesus Christ did not preach such doctrine it has no power to purify the soul (1 Peter 1:21-22). Revelation was complete with the delivery of the message to the seven churches of Asia. We know that this is inspired scripture and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for corrections for instruction in righteousness that the man of God might be perfect; thoroughly furnished unto every good work.(2 Tim 3:16-17).

I look down the road of time and see pictures of the mind like you have described. I see martyrs who wanted to be well pleasing to God. I see ignorant but believing men and women working with limited knowledge because of the Inquisition. But, most of all I see a loving and merciful God that is no respecter of persons. Who would have the whole world saved. Who will examine every situation of man, whether they be good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10).

I don’t desire to seem cruel or indifferent, but rather than speculate on baptisms that are not mentioned in the scriptures or situation, such death bed conversions which gender speculation, we should rather be ready to obey the commands that are presented and believe that God will righteously judge the balance through Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31).

JustAChristian

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

Then amazingly you say: As I've said repeatedly, baptism is the sacrament of FAITH, the same faith that leads to our justification and then salvation.

That is a unScriptural view you have embraced there. Romans 5:1 tells us justification comes through faith. No mention of water. You are adding to Scripture to think otherwise. Baptism does not lead to justification but faith does. You have the cart before the horse once again!

NOT amazingly, you are again relying on a single verse, Romans 5:1, to the exclusion of all other verses about baptism, justification and salvation. Romans 5:1 DOES NOT exclude water baptism, it simply doesn't mention it. Nor does it mention the necessity of repentance, but you know repentence is required, don't you?

And you simply refuse to look at the very next chapter of Romans, particularly Rom 6:4-6. I'll post it again for your consideration, but this time will go through it slow and I'll try to help you understand it:

4Therefore we were buried with Him THROUGH BAPTISM into death,
In baptism we are spiritually joined with Christ in His death, the death that brings salvation.

that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Getting 'buried with Him' THROUGH BAPTISM, or united with Him in death THROUGH BAPTISM, assures us of being 'raised from the dead', so we can also 'walk in the newness of life.' If Paul isn't talking about salvation here, what is he talking about Freak?

6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,
When we are BAPTIZED, our old carnal self dies as if crucified with Jesus; in other words, we repent and turn away from our 'wordly' ways.

that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
In baptism our sins are forgive (sin might be done away with) and we receive sanctifying grace from the Holy Spirit, so we are therefor no longer 'slaves of sin.'

You asked me: So Freak, do you want to be buried with Christ,

I did that many years ago when I was justified as I put my faith in the risen Christ. Water was simply a symbol of the inner transformation that had already occurred. Water is not God. Water is the created. I have trusted in the Creator!

How many times do I have to say that I DON'T THINK WATER ITSELF SAVES? God saves, but He can do that by whatever means He wishes. Why do you have such a difficult time understanding that God can use anything He has created for any purpose He wishes. If God wants to confer grace through water, like the grace that healed the eyes of the blind man through the water in the pool at Siloam, or like the healing of our souls through the waters of baptism, it is His prerogative. When he thought it was appropriate, he appeared to Moses as a fire in a bush, so we know He has certainly used the basic element we know as fire. The Spirit of God, in the form of a wind, moved upon the face of the waters to begin the creation process on earth, so wind has been used by God. God used dirt to form the first man. God has used lightning and clouds at various times and for different purposes. So, it is very apparent that God can use substances or forces He creates to do with as He wishes. Why do you say water cannot be used as God wishes?

So, tell me where in Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:24, and John 3:15 water baptism is mentioned as a key to being justified.

So tell me, who ever said 'Since Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:24, and John 3:15 don't say water baptism is a key element to being justified, then we can ignore Mark 16:16, Romans 6:4-6, etc...'? You keep pressing the same obviously flawed argument, and we're not buying it Freak. One scripture verse doesn't exclude another, except in man-made theologies attempting to play at religion but don't really have a clue.

It seems to me faith in Christ is what justifies you before God

Freak, faith in Christ IS what justifies you, but being united with Jesus through baptism is what opens the door to salvation for us. You are confusing justification and salvation.

and then water baptism is merely a symbol of that reality!

Why does it seem that way to you Freak, when scripture repeatedly tells us baptism is NOT just symbolic? Jesus told us 'Whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved', Paul tells us baptism is how we are buried with Christ so we can rise with Christ, he tells us baptism makes the forgiveness of our sins possible. Repeatedly scripture gives us a very emphatic message about the importance of baptism, but because you have found a few verses about justification or salvation that don't mention a need for it, you assume you can ignore the other requirements. I'm sorry Freak, but that's plain dumb. What confuses me is you appear otherwise to be a relatively intelligent person, so I can't figure out how you've reconciled such a flawed idea in your conscience. Stop ignoring it Freak. You're wrong about water baptism, and scripture proves you wrong. If you say my interpretation is not accurate, I want you to step me through Rom 6:4-6 line-by-line, just like I did, and explain what it means to you.

 

[Francisco]

JustAChristian

Francisco,

Sympathetic situations often “fathered” unique doctrines. The Mormons have their baptism for the dead. The Jehovah’s Witness have their “second chance to salvation.” Desperate citizens seeking some avenue for a frail and sickly relative or friend. All of which are based on a misguided but, perhaps, good intentions. We can not live beyond the scriptures and expect acceptance of our intents. Jesus said, “...ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).

First, I want to politely disagree with your statement 'we can't live outside the scriptures'. Christians lived 'outside the scriptures' for many hundreds of years before the bible. They relied on the apostolic oral tradition, and the authority of the Church which is the 'pillar and ground of the truth.' Secondly, many Christian doctrines which I'm certain you and I agree upon don't have a direct and clear scriptural basis, for instance the belief in monogamous marriages or the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

However, the doctrines of Baptism by Desire and Baptism of Blood both have scriptural foundations. Although I thought you made a well stated argument that the thief, because he died right before Jesus did, he 'spoke away' the thief's sins, I don't believe the thief was completely unique. Unusual, yes, unique, no. I think Jesus will still do that for the 'death bed conversion' cases. And the verses about the thief form part of the scriptural basis for the Baptism of Desire. Other scriptures that substantiate that doctrine include all the scripture that reveals God's mercy and desire for all men to be saved. The belief is, that if someone earnestly and sincerely turns to God even in the last moments of their life, God, in His endless mercy and desire for all men to be saved, excuses the normative necessity of water baptism where there is no opportunity to perform the baptism.

The Baptism of Blood, or Martyr's Baptism as it is sometimes called, finds it's primary scriptural roots in the beatitudes. Jesus said 'Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for their's is the kingdom of heaven.' If you think about it, this is an extremely powerful promise. And again, the scriptures that reveal God's infinite mercy and desire that all men be saved, combine here to complete the basis of the doctrine. The belief is that God, in His infinite mercy and desire that all men be saved, excuses the normative requirement for baptism if that person has undergone the ultimate persecution, death. Otherwise, I believe God would be breaking His promise to reward those who die for Him the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Francisco]

Hopeof Glory,

The water baptized at Pentecost believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception concerning the nation of Israel as a whole with John the Baptist. This national priestly remission (Ex. 19:6) through obedience was in effect (Mark 1 :4) before the New testament (Matt 26:28) of His shed blood "for" remission was given. The simplicity of this truth is clearly revealed. The Peterine message at Pentecost was the same as John the Baptist’s message before the cross (Mark 1:4)(Acts 2:38). It is of extreme importance that we understand the new testament message of the cross is a better witness (John 5:36) and was not effectual until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17).

Your reasoning is seriously flawed here. The message of the cross, and the fact that it is a better 'witness' than that of the old testament, was not speaking of John the Baptist's 'witness' at all, and it has no bearing on water baptism. Besides, if the 'New Testament message of the cross' somehow replaced the need for baptism, why did Jesus command the apostles to baptize after He had already died on the cross to seal that New Testament? It doesn't make sense.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Francisco
The message of the cross, and the fact that it is a better 'witness' than that of the old testament, was not speaking of John the Baptist's 'witness' at all, and it has no bearing on water baptism.

Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)

Besides, if the 'New Testament message of the cross' somehow replaced the need for baptism, why did Jesus command the apostles to baptize after He had already died on the cross to seal that New Testament? It doesn't make sense.

He did not command them to "water" baptize. He commanded them to teach the words that He had spoke in reference to the new testament.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[Freak]

Look, the Holy Scriptures are rather clear. Justification is being made right with God. Justification is a one time act-"Having been[past tense] justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (see Romans 5:1). Paul experienced justification when he placed his faith in Christ. He was later water baptized to identify (symbolically) with the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Christ. We know this to be because later on he writes to the church at Corinth that he did not come to "baptize" but to preach the "Gospel", here he makes a clear distinction between baptism and the Gospel. Baptism is not part of the Gospel (see 1 Corinthians 15) and Paul made it clear that it is the Gospel that saves (see Romans 1:16).

One day, I pray, you will see the truth as God opens your eyes to the beauty of justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ. At that point you stopping trust in your water baptism and you trust Jesus and Him alone. It is truly liberating!

 

[HopeofGlory]

Francisco,

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not water baptism which is a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore a “work” is no longer required. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required thus are still in their sins (Rom 11:6).

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25).

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".
Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)
Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are placed in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".

Water baptism is performed by men to men yet Spirit baptism is an operation of God receive through FAITH not water.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)

This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is by belief in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[Francisco]

HopeofGlory,

He did not command them to "water" baptize. He commanded them to teach the words that He had spoke in reference to the new testament.

He commanded them to teach AND to baptize. Now you argue that he didn't say 'water', but I would argue that his disciples, who had ample time with the Lord to understand what He meant, proceeded to water baptize everyone who believed. Do you think the apostles and Jesus' other disciples just screwed up, didn't get it right, never really understood the deep truths that you and Freak have discovered through your man-made, modern day theologies?

LOL!

 

[Francisco]

HopeofGlory,

The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins (Rom 3:25).

Hmmm. I wonder why the apostles didn't get the memo that the 'new message' had superceded the necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of sins? Why did they go on preaching the 'old message' of Acts2:38? I wonder why Jesus commanded them to baptize all the nations, especially since He had to have been the one to cause the old message to be superceded?

And I wonder why St. Paul would contradict himself. You see, he would be contradicting himself in Romans, if your interpretation of 3:25 was correct. That would be a direct conflit with 6:4-6, where Paul tells us our sins are forgiven and salvation entered into, by being buried with Him in baptism, so sins might be done away with, so we can take on the likeness of the Lord, including the likeness of His resurrection.

Can you explain the contradiction between your interpretation of Romans 3:25 and the idea that baptism is how we are united with Christ as explained by at Romans 6:4-6?

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

Look, the Holy Scriptures are rather clear. Justification is being made right with God. Justification is a one time act-"Having been[past tense] justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (see Romans 5:1). Paul experienced justification when he placed his faith in Christ. He was later water baptized to identify (symbolically) with the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Christ. We know this to be because later on he writes to the church at Corinth that he did not come to "baptize" but to preach the "Gospel", here he makes a clear distinction between baptism and the Gospel. Baptism is not part of the Gospel (see 1 Corinthians 15) and Paul made it clear that it is the Gospel that saves (see Romans 1:16).

One day, I pray, you will see the truth as God opens your eyes to the beauty of justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ. At that point you stopping trust in your water baptism and you trust Jesus and Him alone. It is truly liberating!

Why do you keep pressing the same flawed argument? You're like a broken record. You have not addressed my questions to you, even after I have repeatedly given you a point by point response to your questions. I asked you very simply to explain Rom 6:4-6 to me, step by step as I did for you. Are you capable of doing that?

Please don't respond again by saying 'scripture is very clear...' because you don't accept clear scripture unless it suits you and fits your man-made ideas. Mark 16:16 is VERY CLEAR, with no room for misunderstanding. It says 'Whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved', but you say this doesn't mean baptism is necessary. Yet you can't explain why.

It appears, by your refusal to address my questions on Rom 6:4-6 and Mark 16:16, that you have a giant hole in your make-it-up-as-you-go-along theology.

 

[Francisco]

Hope,

Water baptism is performed by men to men yet Spirit baptism is an operation of God receive through FAITH not water.

So, why do you think Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize? Why did the apostles and the other disciples water baptize all those people?

This quickening or baptism by the Spirit is by belief in the words of Jesus Christ in reference to the new testament for remission of sins.

Can you please show me the scripture that says Spirit baptism is for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Francisco
HopeofGlory,
He commanded them to teach AND to baptize. Now you argue that he didn't say 'water', but I would argue that his disciples, who had ample time with the Lord to understand what He meant, proceeded to water baptize everyone who believed. Do you think the apostles and Jesus' other disciples just screwed up, didn't get it right, never really understood the deep truths that you and Freak have discovered through your man-made, modern day theologies?

LOL!

Not so fast, you have offered no rebuttal. Are you so blinded by your doctrine that you can't receive the truth. Show us where Christ commanded the apostles to "water" baptize. Why is it that you have to continually add words to scripture as if it will prove your point? Put the scripture where your mouth is without the additions. The apostles continued to preach the truth of a baptism of repentance for remission of sins as the Baptist did under the law. After the death of Christ all things became new and are of God and this includes baptism. The scriptures I provided prove baptism is now an operation of God by the Spirit and that the witness of the Baptist was superceded by the work of the cross. Why so? Because the death of Christ removed the law. Scripture tells us the old has passed away. Christ did not give us a new water baptism. Jesus said “I have greater witness than that of John”. John the Baptist verifies the words of Jesus.....“He must increase, but I must” decrease John 3:30 (KJV). He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
The greater witness of God has taken the place of the lesser witness of man! John the Baptist reveals the contrast of the two baptisms (I indeed baptize you with water but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Matt. 3:11).

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1 (KJV)
of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:2 (KJV)

And what about the beloved tradition of baptism handed down by your fathers?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV)

No Francisco, you have not answered the arguments presented to you. You just continue to ask foolish questions that have already been answered.

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Francisco
HopeofGlory,
Hmmm. I wonder why the apostles didn't get the memo that the 'new message' had superceded the necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

The message was veiled!

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2 Cor. 3:8 (KJV)
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9 (KJV)
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2 Cor. 3:10 (KJV)
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Cor. 3:11 (KJV)
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2 Cor. 3:12 (KJV)
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor. 3:13 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)

We cannot assume a message is understood without scriptural "proof" and we certainly cannot "add" to the message what is not there for that truly is foolishness. Christ offered eternal life in this blood (John 6:54) to the apostles and it is verified with scripture that it was not understood. Their response was "who can here (believe) it" (John 6:60). It is clear the Pentecostal message does not contain the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins.

Why did they go on preaching the 'old message' of Acts2:38?

Israel as a whole had not yet receive Jesus as their Messiah. Water baptism as taught by the baptist was to manifest Christ to Israel.

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. John 1:31 (KJV)

This manifestation was completed at Pentecost.

I wonder why Jesus commanded them to baptize all the nations, especially since He had to have been the one to cause the old message to be superceded?

Let me ask you, how do you think it possible for these apostles to baptize ALL NATIONS in water? As I said before He did not command them to baptized. Again, prove with scripture that He did.

And I wonder why St. Paul would contradict himself. You see, he would be contradicting himself in Romans, if your interpretation of 3:25 was correct. That would be a direct conflit with 6:4-6, where Paul tells us our sins are forgiven and salvation entered into, by being buried with Him in baptism, so sins might be done away with, so we can take on the likeness of the Lord, including the likeness of His resurrection.

Can you explain the contradiction between your interpretation of Romans 3:25 and the idea that baptism is how we are united with Christ as explained by at Romans 6:4-6?

There is no contradition!

Faith in the shed blood of Christ is the new testament. Jesus spoke these spirit words and when we believe them we are baptized by the Spirit of Christ into His body and it is an operation of God NOT men. Christ instructed the apostles to preached these words thus by the operation of God all that believed would be baptized.

In Christ
Craig