The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Francisco]

Solly,

Off an RC website

St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."

That's right. All graces ever bestowed on men are summed up in the person of Jesus Christ, the same Jesus that came to us THROUGH MARY.

St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her." What, no one comes to the Father but by her?

Again you are misunderstanding a metaphor by taking the 'passing through' part literally. Calling Mary the 'gate of heaven' makes reference to Mary's role as the human link between heaven and earth by virtue of ushering our salvation into the world through the conception of Jesus Christ.

St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice."
But unto you that fear my name, shall the Moon? no Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings. Mal 4.2

Why are you citing Mal 4:2? I see the connection with the 'sun of justice', but I see no way that this is pertinent to Mary being any sort of conduit or 'gate' between heaven and earth. Regardless, this rests on the same basic premis as my answer about Mary as the 'gate'.

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast.

The 'radio broadcast' was actually radio coverage of a Papal announcement from the Vatican. If it were to happen today we would be watching CNN instead of listening to the radio. Do you find some intrinstic evil in Frequency and/or Amplitude Modulation, or do you prefer some other means of communication commonly available in 1935, like a bullhorn?

1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death"

If you've ever read the gospel of St. Luke you should be able to answer your own questions here. Mary 'freely cooperated in the work of man's salvation' when she obediently, but of her own free will, replied thus to the Angel Gabriel: 'Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' Luke 1:38 Through her obedience to God, Jesus Christ, our salvation, was conceived and born of Mary. Because Mary ushered our salvation into the world, it is right to say she 'caused' our salvation. But again, it in no way implies that Mary IS our salvation.

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix."

Yes, Mary and all the Saints in heaven intercede on our behalf, just like our friends on earth do, when we ask them to pray for us.

"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator." "For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." I left this in to prove how fair I am[/quote]Thank you for the good sportsmanship. That's refreshing. And without belaboring my point, this shows very clearly the Catholic position I've been speaking to. Do you see anything wrong with this, Solly?

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."

Again, these quotes make reference to Mary's obedience displayed at Luke1:38 and the fact that our salvation came to us through Mary in the person of Jesus Christ. John Paul II mentions suffering, and this confuses alot of people because Mary was never directly persecuted in the gospels. But she suffered mightily, as prophesied by Simeon when Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the temple to be consecrated: 'Yea, a sword shall pierce thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many may be revealed'. Think deeply about what Simeon said and what it implies.

This looks a lot more than just honouring someone;

I hope you see it in a different light now, even if you don't agree with me.

and the personal devotion to Mary that goes on around the world, and the prayers offered to her (for her to pass on, of course!) speak volumes for the lack of a relationship with Christ himself,

And that is the largest misunderstanding Protestants have about the Catholic position on Mary. Our devotion to Mary makes our personal relationship even stronger, it doesn't replace it. Consider this: is your relationship stronger with one of your friends if you are also friends of the other members of their family? What if you ignored the other members of your friend's family, would you be friends long? Probably not, since the very nature of personal relationships tend toward involvement with the other people in the lives of our friends, and also the cares and concerns of our friends. When you get right down to it, that's what loving your neighbor is all about.

Now that I have given you an answer on everything you've addressed to me so far, could I impose upon you for an answer to just a few of the questions I've asked in my last few posts, to which you have not yet replied? Thank you, in advance, for your response.


God Bless,

Francisco

 

[JustAChristian]

Why Not Follow Noah's Example...?

Why Not Follow Noah's Example...?

Originally posted by Francisco
Freak,

Freak said, "WAter is simply the created. Turn to the Creator!"

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:18-21 AV)

I am so glad that Noah used the "created" [the ark that he made] and not just the Creator. There was a lot of disobedient people who would have done anything for another opportunity to get on that boat. However, after the "ark of safety" shoved off in the storm it was too late! Don't be found standing in the water. Get in the water; have your sins washed away (Acts 22:16) and "get on board. (Galatians 3:27).

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[JustAChristian]

Take Him At His Word!

Take Him At His Word!

Originally posted by Freak
Fransico,

When Jesus said to simply believe Him (see John 3:15-16) for salvation. JUst take Him at His Word ok? ...

Take Him at his word? What is Mark 16:16? Prove this is not meant for you and me if it is His word. Prove it is not applicable for us. You set the parameters! His word or not?

JustAChristian :angel:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16 AV)

 

[Francisco]

JustAChristian,

Those were a couple of excellent posts! And thanks for re-emphasizing my point about Mark 16:16.

Just one request though; two posts back it looks like you are attributing some of Freaks words to me. PLEASE, don't do that !!! Can you edit that post to show that 'WAter is simply the created. Turn to the Creator!' are Freaks words, and not mine? Thanks!

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[JustAChristian]

Woops!!

Woops!!

Originally posted by Francisco
JustAChristian,

Those were a couple of excellent posts! And thanks for re-emphasizing my point about Mark 16:16.

Just one request though; two posts back it looks like you are attributing some of Freaks words to me. PLEASE, don't do that !!! Can you edit that post to show that 'WAter is simply the created. Turn to the Creator!' are Freaks words, and not mine? Thanks!

God Bless,

Francisco

Seems like I punched in on the wrong post when I was answering Freaks statement. I did edit the post. Sorry 'bout that!

JustAChristian :thumb:

 

[Freak]

JustWorks:

Look, the Scriptures are clear about this issue. Salvation is through God-the Lord Jesus Christ not through something He created-water. You guys are borderline cultists for believing that somehow water brings salvation. God brings salvation.

Now, to Mark 16. You guys seem to be missing the point here. When the apostle Mark spoke of being baptized he spoke of it occuring after salvation. See verse 17 of that chapter. Mark said quite clearly: and whoever will not believe will be condemned.

Note: being condemend will not occur if one had not been baptized but rather if one had not believed. Mark knew that it was belief in Christ was what saved man not baptism. Now I hope you guys see this. It's rather clear!

I'm still waiting for some one to deal with Romans 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 (besides the tons of verses found elsewhere).

Galatians 3:24: ...that we might be justified by faith.

Justification, becoming right with God, is through faith. Just accept this and move on with your lives. It's not water baptism, it's not confirmation, it's not the church, it's simply Jesus! He's enough for salvation!

 

[JustAChristian]

Answering Romans 5:1 and Gal. 3:24 and other thoughts...

Answering Romans 5:1 and Gal. 3:24 and other thoughts...

Originally posted by Freak
JustWorks:

Look, the Scriptures are clear about this issue. Salvation is through God-the Lord Jesus Christ not through something He created-water. You guys are borderline cultists for believing that somehow water brings salvation. God brings salvation.

Now, to Mark 16. You guys seem to be missing the point here. When the apostle Mark spoke of being baptized he spoke of it occuring after salvation. See verse 17 of that chapter. Mark said quite clearly: and whoever will not believe will be condemned.

Note: being condemend will not occur if one had not been baptized but rather if one had not believed. Mark knew that it was belief in Christ was what saved man not baptism. Now I hope you guys see this. It's rather clear!

I'm still waiting for some one to deal with Romans 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 (besides the tons of verses found elsewhere).

Galatians 3:24: ...that we might be justified by faith.

Justification, becoming right with God, is through faith. Just accept this and move on with your lives. It's not water baptism, it's not confirmation, it's not the church, it's simply Jesus! He's enough for salvation!

When the first converts were commanded to be baptized, there appeared to be a knowledge of the mode and purpose of baptism. There was no controversy as to whether it was "necessary" or what it's purpose was. There is no doubt that the work of John the Baptist not only introduced Jesus but served to prepare the people for the religious practice of baptism as well. We see this on the day of Pentecost when the first gospel sermon was preached under the inspiration (and with the baptism) of the Holy Spirit. There was no question as to the mode and purpose of baptism when Peter commanded (Acts 2:38):

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It seems, however, that the early Christians were just like us in that they soon forgot the reasons for and the significance of what they had been through. To many, baptism might have become a mere prerequisite for local church fellowship, as it has become to many today. They may have viewed it merely as a work to be accomplished and forgotten. It may have been relegated to a secondary role, as we have seen is generally the case in denominationalism today. For these reasons the writers of the epistles, and the apostle Paul in particular, provided additional information with regard to baptism as they wrote the various churches. A thorough study of the various accounts of baptism in the book of Acts will give great insight to the mode and purpose of baptism today. There is no need to speculate. Christ would not want you to be lost through speculation. “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved” has been the mode and purpose for nearly twenty centuries. Obey the means through faith for the remission of sins. (Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 2:38).
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1 AV)

One can only be justified (saved) today only through the process of believing (having faith). We can not do any amount of works of merit, such as numerous prayers, counting beads, pilgrimages, climbing steps on our knees, attending numerous worships, etc. to earn salvation. It is the gift of God. When we come forward, however, in doing the commandment of believing in Christ as God’s Son, repenting of sins, confessing Christ publically, being baptized for the remission of sins, and sowing to the Spirit we are only doing what is commanded by Jesus Christ. This is not earning salvation but obeying Christ (Hebrews 5:8-9).

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” (Galatians 3:24 AV)

The Law of Moses (the schoolmaster), with its many prophesies of Jesus Christ directed (brought) us to the Messiah who was born in Bethlehem of Judea according to the prophets. We hear his teaching through the New Testament. We see Him healing the sick and raising the dead according to the prophets. We see him extensively with his apostles in teaching them the gospel. We see him telling them He will soon leave them to go back to the Father, but that he will not leave them comfortless. He would sent them the Holy Spirit to assist them in their ministry of the gospel. We see him die on a cross outside Jerusalem and be entombed in a borrowed grave. We see him rise to glory from death. We seem him forty days with his disciples before ascending to Heaven. He commissions them to go preach into all the world. We see the Holy Spirit descending on the apostles on Pentecost to empower them to preach to all the world. We see thousands obey the word and are cleansed of sins. We see all this because of the prophesies of the Law that led us to Christ. Now we understand the purpose of the Law. It was to bring us to acceptance of the Messiah through seeing him unveiled through fulfillment of prophecy. Because we have seen all this we believe in Christ. We have faith in his ministry and purpose. We have the faith to do what he commands; believe he is Gods Son (John 8:24), repent of sins (Luke 13:3,5), confess him as the son of God (Matt. 10:32-33), are baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and rise to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-5). and thus we are “justified by faith”.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Jaltus]

The purpose of the law is to show sin and righteousness, according to Romans 3:20-21.

Romans 10:9-11 also show quite clearly that it is by calling on the name of God, confessing Jesus as Lord, and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead that we are saved.

Baptism is not mentioned.

 

[JustAChristian]

Neither is...

Neither is...

Originally posted by Jaltus
The purpose of the law is to show sin and righteousness, according to Romans 3:20-21.

Romans 10:9-11 also show quite clearly that it is by calling on the name of God, confessing Jesus as Lord, and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead that we are saved.

Baptism is not mentioned.

Can you show me the commandment to repent of sins in Romans 10:9-10? Well, can you? :nono: Are people saved that do not repent of sins? How do they come to know they are to repent? By considering "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:28). Baptism is mentioned in numerous verses of the scriptures. More than enough to tell us that if we fail to obey it we will bel lost eternally.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Jaltus]

You are saying that death bed conversions do not count?

What about the thief on the cross?

You seem to have a few narrative holes in your theology.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Just a few?

I can't believe this thread is still going.

 

[Yxboom]

With no help from me of course :noid:

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

Now, to Mark 16. You guys seem to be missing the point here. When the apostle Mark spoke of being baptized he spoke of it occuring after salvation. See verse 17 of that chapter. Mark said quite clearly: and whoever will not believe will be condemned.

Mark also said quite clearly 'Whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved'. There is no way of getting around the plain meaning of scripture here Freak. You can keep ignoring it if you want, but every time you read Mark 16:16, it will say the same thing.

Secondly, you keep saying baptism should occur after salvation, the salvation that is the reward of the repentent sinner. But does scripture not also say 'be baptized for the forgiveness of sins'? So, why would one need to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins if they have already recieved their salvation? It doesn't make sense.

 

[Francisco]

Jaltus,

I think the point is that Romans 9:10-11 never mentions repetence as a condition for salvation, yet we know we must repent to be saved. So, Romans 9:10-11 doesn't give an all inclusive list of the conditions necessary to attain salvation. Another of those conditions is given at Mark 16:16, 'whoever believes and is baptized will be saved'. You can't exclude the requirement for baptism because Rom 9 doesn't mention it, any more than I can exclude the requirement of repentence because Mark 16:16 doesn't mention it.

Your scripture quote, and the conclusion you draw from it here, is like reading the paragraph regarding payment of tuition on a college application where it says, 'you must pay your tuition by the 5th day of the month', then concluding that all you have to do to be accepted to this college is 'pay tuition' and you can ignore the scholastic requirements mentioned in another paragraph. Mark 16:16 and other verses quoted in this thread would be like the college application paragraph about scholastic standards for admittance, you would just be ignoring them.

It doesn't make sense. You can not read single verses completely out of the context of all the other verses written on the same subject, and draw a valid conclusion, particularly when some of the other verses would seem to contradict your interpretation.

 

[cirisme]

What about the thief on the cross?

IIRC, people who argue from that position usually say that the thief was before Christ's sacrifice so it doesn't apply to us.

I think that arguement is hogwash.

 

[Freak]

I'm still waiting for someone to tackle--for example: Galatians 3:24, Romans 5:1, and John 3:15.

You baptism guys hate to hear faith in Christ is enough. But the Scriptures speak clearly. Instead of boring us with huge responses that make no sense just simply deal with, for example Galatians 3 that clearly speak of being justified by faith. No mention of baptism.

 

[cirisme]

What about all the passages that mention baptism?

 

[Freak]

Cir, I have no problem with baptism but it is NOT essential for justification to occur. You would agree wouldn't you?

 

[cirisme]

Yes, but how you get there bothers me.

 

[Freak]

through faith in Jesus Christ....

As Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us.