The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

You admit that your doctrine is not "spelled out" by Scripture.

However,mine is.And you agree with my contention that it is the Spirit that baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ.

The rest of your ideas are nothing but SPECULATION.

And the event that I use to prove my point is very telling.It is obvious that they had already had the forgiveness of their sins before they were water baptized.This proves that it was not submitting to that rite that brought the forgiveness of sins,but instead it was their repenting and then believing the gospel.

And all you can say is that it was an exception.

But what about the Philippian jailer?He asked,"What must I do to be saved?"(Acts16:30).

Did Paul say,In order to be saved you must repent and then be baptized.?

Of course not.Instead he said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved..."

And then,"And they spoke unto him the word of the Lord,and to all that were in the house..."

After speaking the gospel to them,then we would expect to see an immediate baptism by water.But that is not what happened.Instead,we see that "he took them at the same hour of the night,and washed their stripes,and was baptized..."

Seems as if they first preached the gospel to them (and those who believed received remission of their sins) and then they "washed their stripes",and then after this was completed they were baptized with water.

Again,herewe see that when the jailer asked how he could be saved,Paul said nothing about being baptized with water,and after preaching the gospel the believers were not baptized with water until the injuries were tended to.

Is this just another exception?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apollos,

You did not even attempt to address my point that by the time the Holy Spirit fell on them that it was necessary for their sins to be forgiven.Sin separates man from God,and as long as they remained in their sins the Holy Spiritwould not fall on them.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So we see that their sins were remitted before they were water baptized.Therefore,it is not submitting to the rite of water baptism that brings the forgiveness of sins.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Matthew 3:11 should read:

"I baptize you with water because of repentance."

I can't believe you said that!!! Scripture is the inspired Word of God. It already says exactly what it should say!

It was not the water baptism that brought forgiveness of sins,but instead the repentance (or change of mind)--"that they should believe on Him who should come after Him,that is,Jesus Christ"(Acts19:4).

Sounds to me like you're saying man can work his way to heaven by repenting, as if repentance really 'brought forgiveness.' Is this a 'works salvation' you're preaching here Jerry? Are you saying man 'merits' forgiveness by repenting?

Actually, I agree with you that a change of mind, or more accurately a change of heart, is required for forgiveness, BUT repentance is not ONLY a change of mind or heart in the context of forgiveness of sin. The way I see it, repentance is first feeling regret for the sins you've committed (change of mind/heart), then making a lifelong commitment to amend your ways and try to sin no more.

After repentance comes the baptism into Christ, and the Holy Spirit is conferred upon the repentant sinner through water to give the repentant sinner new life, just as the Spirit gave the world new life in Gen 1:2.

At Acts 2:38 the verse reads this way:

"Repent you all (and let each one be baptized because of the forgiveness of sins) and you all shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

LOL. The verse DOES NOT read that way!!! For someone who's always accusing others of adding words to scripture, you're sure doing alot of it here. The verse says FOR the forgiveness of sins, not BECAUSE OF. Come on Jerry, tell us you're not serious...LOL.

So you see,in reality the teaching here is that a true repentance leads to the forgiveness of sins.

Maybe the teaching according to Jerry Shugart says that, but without adding all the extra words you added above, scripture does not say that at all.

Jerry, we are really not as far apart in our beliefs here as I originally thought. I concur 100% with what you said said above, insofar as the act of water baptism is not what forgives sins. Repentance is certainly required. So, if someone who has not truly repented is baptized, I personally don't believe they are forgiven.

Where we differ is in our beliefs around HOW the Holy Spirit confers His power to cleanse us from sin. Just so I am perfectly clear here, I do not believe the Holy Spirit is duty bound to confer His soul cleansing powers on us through water baptism, but I do believe that is the normative way He works.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

Consider the following words:

"...they repented AT (eis) the preaching of Jonah."

Or,it could just as rightly be rendered:

"...they repented BECAUSE OF (eis) the preaching of Jonah."

Now consider the following verse:

"I,indeed,baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance."

This verse should read:

"I,indeed,baptize you with water because of (eis) repentance."

Next,according to all the Greek experts I am aware of,the word translated "repent",means "to change one´s mind" ("Thayer´s Greek English Lexicon").

Repentance in English and "metanoia" in Greek both have the same meaning: An after mind,the result of second thought or reflection.So when one truly changes his mind and believes the gospel,at that time his sins are taken away from him.

Listen to the words of Peter to the children of Israel.Again,there is no mention whatsoever of having to be baptized with water in order to receive the remission of sins:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

No mention here that a "water baptism" is necessary for the remission of sins.We have alreay seen that Paul told the jailer that in order to be saved he had to believe the gospel,and I have demostrated that Cornelius and his household all had their sins taken away before they were water baptized.

So are these ALL EXCEPTIONS?

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Francisco,

You admit that your doctrine is not "spelled out" by Scripture.

However,mine is.And you agree with my contention that it is the Spirit that baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ.

We saw above how YOUR doctrine is spelled out. After you add a word or two here and there, maybe a short sentence, THEN it's spelled out.

The rest of your ideas are nothing but SPECULATION.

I'm not the one speculating about 'Matthew 3:11 should read'... And I'm not the one inserting entire sentences into Acts 2:38 to change the meaning.

And the event that I use to prove my point is very telling.It is obvious that they had already had the forgiveness of their sins before they were water baptized.This proves that it was not submitting to that rite that brought the forgiveness of sins,but instead it was their repenting and then believing the gospel.

And all you can say is that it was an exception.

And I explained why the exception was made, to make clear to Peter that salvation was meant for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Remember the revelation Peter had just before the Cornelius event, and how he was trying to discern what that revelation meant. Read Acts 11 where Peter explains to the other apostles and brothers at Jerusalem how he came to understand what the vision meant, particularly verses 17 and 18.

But what about the Philippian jailer?He asked,"What must I do to be saved?"(Acts16:30).

Did Paul say,In order to be saved you must repent and then be baptized.?

Of course not.Instead he said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved..."

And then,"And they spoke unto him the word of the Lord,and to all that were in the house..."

After speaking the gospel to them,then we would expect to see an immediate baptism by water.But that is not what happened.Instead,we see that "he took them at the same hour of the night,and washed their stripes,and was baptized..."

Seems as if they first preached the gospel to them (and those who believed received remission of their sins) and then they "washed their stripes",and then after this was completed they were baptized with water.

Again,herewe see that when the jailer asked how he could be saved,Paul said nothing about being baptized with water,and after preaching the gospel the believers were not baptized with water until the injuries were tended to.

Is this just another exception?

Where does your quote say anything about when their sins were forgiven? It doesn't. It is purely SPECULATION on your part that their sins were forgiven before baptism. The words you add via your comment 'and those who believed received remission of their sins' are no where to be found in the verse.

Regarding Paul's and Silas' words ,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved..." I don't see any SPECIFIC WORDS about repentance, which you say in another post above IS necessary for forgiveness of sins. I hate to go off on a tangent like this, but just a few posts back you were requiring SPECIFIC WORDS from me. There are NO SPECIFIC WORDS here that says they must repent, but believing in Jesus Christ implies necessary repentance. Just as the eunuch confessing Jesus Christ is Son of God and then going into the water to be baptized implies he was water baptized into Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, I ask you again, what was the eunuch water baptized into, if not Jesus Christ?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Repentance in English and "metanoia" in Greek both have the same meaning: An after mind,the result of second thought or reflection.So when one truly changes his mind and believes the gospel,at that time his sins are taken away from him.

I disagree with the sentence above that I bolded. Upon what basis do you make the claim that sins are taken away when one repents? If one could repent and sins automatically be forgiven, why did Jesus have to die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins? Couldn't John the Baptist run around teaching everyone about repentance and that be the end of it?

Listen to the words of Peter to the children of Israel.Again,there is no mention whatsoever of having to be baptized with water in order to receive the remission of sins:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

Hmmm. I wonder what 'be converted' means? How does this 'conversion' thing happen Jerry?

No mention here that a "water baptism" is necessary for the remission of sins.We have alreay seen that Paul told the jailer that in order to be saved he had to believe the gospel,and I have demostrated that Cornelius and his household all had their sins taken away before they were water baptized.

So are these ALL EXCEPTIONS?

No. The only exception I've seen so far is Cornelius.

With the jailer of Paul and Silas, he heard the word from Paul and then was water baptized. The verses that deal with the jailer don't make mention of when his sins were forgiven.

In the quote you posted above from Acts 3:19, Peter gives this 'formula' (for want of a better term) for forgiveness of sin:

1. Repent
2. be converted

Just the fact that there is a step 2 in the 'formula' flies in the face of your theory that repentance = forgiveness. In Peters 'formula' here we see that repentance + conversion = forgiveness.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

It is the repentance that brought remission of sins.

John´s baptism was a baptism "because of repentance".

No, it was the blood of Christ that brought remission of sins through water baptism in His name. Besides the people that Jesus directly forgave (He had this authority) there was no forgiveness of sin before the death on the cross. Will you ever address why Christ came and died if there was supposedly already forgiveness of sins? Do you believe the book of Hebrews when it says that the blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sins?

It was not the water baptism that brought forgiveness of sins,but instead the repentance (or change of mind)--"that they should believe on Him who should come after Him,that is,Jesus Christ"(Acts19:4).

The people in Acts 19 were forgiven of their sins when they were baptized in the name of the Lord in verse 5, just as the people were baptized in name of the Lord for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38.

At Acts 2:38 the verse reads this way:

"Repent you all (and let each one be baptized because of the forgiveness of sins) and you all shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It may read that way in the Jerry Shugart Standard Perversion edition, but it does NOT read that way in the Holy Bible.

Here are 54 translations that do NOT tanslate Acts 2:38 as "because":

1. American Bible Union Version unto the remission of your sins

2. Amplified NT for the forgiveness of your sins

3. Anderson In order to the remission of your sins

4. Authentic (Schomfield) for the forgiveness of your sins

5. Authorized version (KJV) for the remission of sins

6. Berry's interlinear for remission of sins

7. Centenary Translation for the remission of sins

8. Challomer Rheims for the forgiveness of sins

9. Douay for the remission of sins

10. Emphasized version into the remission of sins

11. Emphatic Diaglot for the remission of sins

12. English Revised unto the remission of sins

13. Englishman's Greek NT for the remission of sins

14. Ferrar Fenton for the remission of sins

15. First German Bible for (in order to, unto) the forgiveness

16. French Translation in order to obtain the remission of sins

17. Geneva Bible for the remission of sins

18. German Translation (for, unto) in order to forgiveness of sins

19. Good News for Modern man in order to have your sins forgiven

20. Goodspeed in order to have your sins forgiven

21. Hackett (commentary) in order to the forgiveness of sins

22. Haweis (1795AD) for the remission of your sins

23. Indian Translation in order to the forgiveness of sins

24. Italian Translation into the remission of sins

25. Jerusalem Bible for the forgiveness of your sins

26. Knox to have your sins forgiven

27. Literal Translation (Young) to the remission of sins

28. Living Bible for the forgiveness of sins

29. Living Oracles in order to the remission of sins

30. Macknights Translation in order to the remission of sins

31. Modern English for a release of your sins

32. Modern Speech with a view tot he remission of sins

33. Moffatt for the remission of sins

34. H.B. Montgomery (1924) for the remission of your sins

35. Moulton's Modern Reader's Unto remission of sins

36. New American Standard for the remission of your sins

37. New Catholic Version for the forgiveness of sins

38. New English Bible for the forgiveness of your sins

39. New International version for the forgiveness of your sins

40. New King James Version for the remission of sins

41. New World Translation for the forgiveness of sins

42. NT in the Basic English for the forgiveness of sins

43. Phillips Modern English so that you may have your sins forgiven

44. Revised Standard Version for the forgiveness of your sins

45. Rothermham unto the remission of your sins

46. Spanish Translation for the purpose of remission of your sins

47. Syriac Version for the remission of sins

48. Twentieth Century Translation for the forgiveness of your sins

49. Verkuyl (Burkeley Version) for the remission of sins

50. Warrell's Translation unto remission of your sins

51. Wesley's Translation for the remission of sins

52. Weymouth for the remission of your sins

53. Williams that your sins may be forgiven

54. Wycliffe (1308) into the remission of youre synnes

This list was borrowed from: http://www.bible.ca/baptism-objections-refuted.htm#eisgar

The translators DON'T agree with you, Jerry.

One top of that, if you look at Romans 6:7 it states that "He who has died has been freed from sin." Who has been freed from sin? Those who have died with Christ. We die with Christ through BAPTISM (Romans 6:3-4). Romans 6:7 shows that it is those who have died with Christ through baptism who are freed from sin... which totally supports what the Bible says, that baptism is FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

 

[c.moore]

Kevin
You said:Where are you trying to go with this? The three are one (1 John 5:7). Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30), and the HS is God's Spirit. So seeing how they are one, when you baptize in the name of Jesus, you are being baptized in the name of the Father and HS as well, for they are one.

Quote c.moore

I am going with this, to say and you said that all three are one so to baptize in the name of just saying in the name of God, or in the name of Holy Spirit or in the name of the LOrd which we know is Jesus Christ, it makes no difference which of these names used in a baptism because you and I know this fact who Jesus really is, so your understanding of only using the name of the Lord is the new baptism is out of order, unless you change and say that the Lord is not God.
Look at M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Ghost:

Jesus said this command of all three names to be said, and you should obey this sence you are more of a commandment follower.

peace

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Francisco
c.moore,

The outward symbol of baptism is a sign of the repentance that takes place inside us. BUT, baptism is not ONLY a symbol. Do you understand? Baptism IS a symbol, but NOT ONLY a symbol.

The Holy Spirit gives us our 'new life' in Christ when He washes our sins away in the Blood of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit applies this life saving Blood to our sinful souls THROUGH the waters of baptism, just as the Holy Spirit gave the world life through water in Gen 1:2.

God Bless,

Francisco

You said the key thing and fact which I am trying to teach the whole time and you said:The outward symbol of baptism is a sign of the repentance that takes place inside us. AMEN

But the thing that is confussion is your thinking that God need water to create the world is a new theology that I never heard before.

What upm with that ?

The world was created by what is said , and the it was made, read verse 3, God said:
verse 6 God said:

verse 9 and God said , and after being said we see what was said manifested, but need you see that God used water to create the world.

Where did you get these Idea`s :doh:

peace

 

[AVmetro]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

New World Translation for the forgiveness of sins

<shudders>

Hey Kevin, Where did you access those bibles? I've been looking for an online archive like that where you can search verses. Only one I use as of now is http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible
Don't tell me you OWN all those!

God bless,
Jeremiah

 

[AVmetro]

Nevermind!

Nevermind!

:doh: What a moron [me]! You listed the site underneath, and I never looked....oh well. I like that site btw....been there quite a few times...

 

[c.moore]

Kevin
You said:that we don't physically die like Christ literally did when we are baptized. And I'M the one who has been trying to tell you for a long time that water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a SPIRITUAL purpose, not a physical. I don't know HOW many times I've tried to tell you that water baptism serves a spiritual purpose. It is you who thinks it's physical just because it involves water.


Quote c.moore
I know we don`t like Jesus on a cross but I know we die in the spiritual unseen way,and we don`t need a water baptismal ritual to help the Holy Spirit.
it look like to me that you are saying the Holy Spirit is not strong enough to baptize ,and it needs some physical support from this five sence world to make the baptism function, and the Holy spirit has to get wet to keep the fire down or something like that.
You alway use another word which stills comes out to the symbol .
The first time you use the word represents and you admitted it means symbol when I as you for the meaning , and now your back with the word Purpose.

So to show you that you are running from the truth of baptism is a symbol.

tell me now your meaning of purpose???
You`ll see that you are going around the mountain again dodging the symbolic water baptism.

And I'M the one who has been trying to tell you for a long time that water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a SPIRITUAL purpose, not a physical.

Let me break it down what I understand you are saying Kevin.
You are telling me that you are the one who say water baptism
which is a physical substance H20 mixed with a ritual.
and
the Water is wet so when you touch the water there is some kind of a feelings so it can`t be in any case spiritual.

You are the one you said that says this water baptism has something to do with the spiritual, but you see it as long as some words used in this perfect order in the name of the Lord, and that order can´t be in the name of Jesus Christ because that is out of order, and the name of the Holy Spirit is also out of order, and for sure usinf the name of the Father is also out of order because only in the name of the Lord is legal and accepted,for today.

Your belief on this water baptism must be a baptism that is seen by the eyes like the water , you have to see it to believe it in your belief , and in your faith, even though faith is the substance of things not seen, but let me jump over that and continue on you understanding.

Now you added also another new word serves, which looks like the natural has to come forth and serve and support the spiritual , and that why you used the water baptism in your belief like this(water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a SPIRITUAL purpose, )

So without the natural taken place there can be no spiritual actions in your so called faith .

I hope I explained what you believe correctly, and if I am wrong in my understanding on what you believe and teach please correct me

Thanks

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

But the thing that is confussion is your thinking that God need water to create the world is a new theology that I never heard before.

What upm with that ?

I didn't say God needed water to create the world.

What I was talking about is where it says:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" in Genesis 1:2.

This is considered the beginning of life on earth. Tertullian wrote about Gen 1:2 "The Spirit of God moved on the waters giving life, vigor and motion to things..." So, if the Spirit of God can give new life to the earth through water, why can't he give us new life through the waters of baptism?

 

[c.moore]

Kevin
You said:Again it's LIKE Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection because if it was exactly like it, we would physically die upon baptism, which doesn't happen. But what you don't seem to get is that we are spiritually reborn ONLY if we are baptized into His death.


Quote c.moore
No , we would die when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior, and trusting him in our hearts , and as soon as we open our hearts to Jesus then we would physically die , not at any baptism.
you think first and only when we hit the water we are born again when we are wet,but some go down a sinner and come a wet sinner, because the heart was not open first and the process was backwards like you believe.
That why we check the fruits first before we baptize anybody in our church. I know alot of bums who would love to take a bath in a baptism pool anytime because they only get a chance once or twice a month to take a bath, but thier heart is closed to accepting Jesus,so we can`t baptize them.

The bible says how to be born again in Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

this teaches that we are in the flesh normally born from our mothers, and the second birth is the spiritual , which make you born again .
This is the reborn life ,the spiritual believing and having etarnal life John 3:15,16 and verse 17 is teaching that through Jesus is everlating life and being saved, but the scripture doesn`t say the world through baptismal ritual might be saved, and look at the context of the whole chapter of John 3 this 17th verse fits in with the reborn spiritual life praise God with John 3:5´-7.

I am still not finished Kevin , I `ll be back as soon as I come back from our gospel band practice and worship, but I guess you don`t know about this sence you don`t allow instruments in your church group.

 

[Kevin]

AVmetro,

What a moron [me]! You listed the site underneath, and I never looked....oh well.

No biggie.

I like that site btw....been there quite a few times...

Yeah, it's pretty informative. :up: One of our newest memebers at the congregation I attend found us via that website.

 

[Apollos]

God saves sinners in spite of their sins...

God saves sinners in spite of their sins...

Hi Jerry -

I did not mean to avoid your point about sin separating man from God - it does! This does not mean that God forsakes man in his sins.

You make the assumption that HS baptism remits sins - it doesn't. This is not the purpose of HS baptism - it never was. When you recognize WHY the HS came upon Cornelius and household in Acts 10/11, you will know why water baptism was commanded in Acts 10:48.

It looks to me as if your belief requires remission of sins BEFORE the HS can even fall upon someone - since the HS apparently cannot "touch" a sinner, therefore leading me to question HOW one receives remission of sins and at what point the HS can come upon someone.

While sin separates God from man, this does not prevent God from doing that which will save man. Please check out Acts 10:3-7. Here GOD sent his angel to speak to Cornelius (a sinner!!) in reference to salvation. This is a direct act of God through an authorized agent selected by Him - if this is not, in fact, the Lord Himself.

So in Acts 10 when the HS falls upon Cornelius and household to miraculously manifest to the Jews that Gentiles were to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ also, it should not be viewed as an act of "acceptance" or "tolerance" of their sins, but that the Gentiles also have been "granted repentance unto life".

God turns his face away from our sins while acting to save us from them!!

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

it makes no difference which of these names used in a baptism because you and I know this fact who Jesus really is, so your understanding of only using the name of the Lord is the new baptism is out of order, unless you change and say that the Lord is not God.

No, I'm not going to say that the Lord is not God. This is not a Trinity issue. What I've been trying to emphasize is that baptism in the name of the Lord (which baptizes you in the name of all three), was not instituted until AFTER the death on the cross (Matt. 28:19-20). AFTER the cross. This baptism DID NOT EXIST before the death on the cross. So if you are still trying to argue that John the baptist baptized people in the name of the Lord, you are wrong, because it didn't exist then. And again, Acts 19:1-5 clearly shows that John's baptism and baptism in the name of the Lord are different baptism, because they were rebaptized.

Also, baptism in the name of the Lord is what baptizes us into Christ's death. Christ hadn't died when John the baptist was baptizing people, so how could John baptize people into a death that had not happened yet?.

The only reason that I continually say baptism "in the name of the Lord" is because that's the example we are given when the apostles baptized people with the baptism that was commanded of them in the great commission. They baptized people in the name of the Lord. This is what they did, and this is what I preach. What is your hang up about that?

I know we don`t like Jesus on a cross but I know we die in the spiritual unseen way,and we don`t need a water baptismal ritual to help the Holy Spirit.

The examples of people in the Bible getting baptized in His name are done so with WATER (Acts 10:47-48). The people were baptized in water in Acts 2:38. The eunuch was baptized with water after being preached Jesus. WATER is the example that we are given on how baptism in His name is perform, and therefore that is how it is to be done. What is your hang up about following the inspired example? The Lord Himself said that unless one is born of WATER and the Spirit, that one cannot enter heaven (John 3:5).

it look like to me that you are saying the Holy Spirit is not strong enough to baptize

No, I'm certainly not saying that at all. You are reading that into it. It's not a question of whether or not the HS is strong enough, it's a question of whether or not a person has the wisdom to follow the inspired example that we have before us (the Bible). The Bible clearly demonstrates that baptism in His name uses water.

So to show you that you are running from the truth of baptism is a symbol.

No, I'm not running from anything. You are just so caught up in your man-made doctrine that baptism is for the edification of other Christians that you can't see what I'm trying to tell you... that it's not for the edification of other Christians.

tell me now your meaning of purpose???
You`ll see that you are going around the mountain again dodging the symbolic water baptism.

My message is the same: be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. Baptism makes you dead to sin and alive to God. Sound familiar?

In regards to baptism symbolizing, well obviously you can't see the actual blood of Christ washing our sins away at baptism, and obviously we are not physically dying as Christ did, so yes it is symbolic (keep READING) ---> of what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING to the believer UPON being baptized. When a person is baptized, they die with Christ and are freed from sin, not before baptism. When a person is baptized, they walk in th newness of life (being reborn), not before baptism. When a person is baptized, they are alive to God and dead to sin, not before baptism. If you could just understand that baptism's purpose is NOT for the faith of others (this is found NOWHERE in scripture), but rather to MAKE the believer dead to sin and alive to God. This is why baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, because it is through baptism that that we die to sin and are alive to God.

Did you ever look up the word "IF"? In Romans 6:5, it say IF we are united together in the likeness of His death, which is through baptism, theses things will be attributed to the believer:

• The believer will be in the likeness of His resurrection (verse 5)
• The believer's old man of sin is crucified and done away with (verse 6)
• The believer is alive to God and dead to sin (verse 11)

These things happen IF we are united in the likess of of death, which is through baptism (verse 4). Those things do NOT happen before baptism, because those things only happen to those who have been united in the likeness of His death through baptism.

I grow tired of asking this same question, over and over again... where does it say that baptism is for the edification of other Christians? If you would simply show me where it says this, we could stop going around this dumb mountain as you put it. I have scripture to show what baptism does for the BELIEVER WHO IS BAPTIZED. Where is your scripture to show that it's for the benefit of other Christians? If you can't answer it, then just say so. This is getting old.

Let me break it down what I understand you are saying Kevin.
You are telling me that you are the one who say water baptism
which is a physical substance H20 mixed with a ritual.
and
the Water is wet so when you touch the water there is some kind of a feelings so it can`t be in any case spiritual.

You are the one you said that says this water baptism has something to do with the spiritual, but you see it as long as some words used in this perfect order in the name of the Lord, and that order can´t be in the name of Jesus Christ because that is out of order, and the name of the Holy Spirit is also out of order, and for sure usinf the name of the Father is also out of order because only in the name of the Lord is legal and accepted,for today.

Your belief on this water baptism must be a baptism that is seen by the eyes like the water , you have to see it to believe it in your belief , and in your faith, even though faith is the substance of things not seen, but let me jump over that and continue on you understanding.

Now you added also another new word serves, which looks like the natural has to come forth and serve and support the spiritual , and that why you used the water baptism in your belief like this(water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a SPIRITUAL purpose, )

So without the natural taken place there can be no spiritual actions in your so called faith .

I hope I explained what you believe correctly, and if I am wrong in my understanding on what you believe and teach please correct me

Here, I'll try to summarize for you. I believe that water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a spiritual purpose, not a phycial. Why? Because upon being baptized in the name of the Lord, your old man of sin dies, you are freed from sin, you are spiritually resurrected... walking in the newness of life, and are alive to God. How is that NOT a spiritual purpose?! Water baptism's purpose is not meant as physical cleansing (a bath), no, it is meant for a spiritual cleansing. On top of that you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

You have this hang up that just because it involves water, you assume incorrectly that it doesn't have a spiritual purpose. If you would consider what baptism DOES for us, as I've said OVER and OVER again, you would realize that it's a spiritual purpose inded.

As far as me stressing that it's the baptism in the name of that Jesus that counts, that's because I wanted to show that it's an entirely different baptism from John's baptism. Baptism in the name of the Lord is the example that we are given, that's what the apostles practiced, so that's what I'm preaching. Since we both agree that the being baptized in the name of Jesus is the same as being baptized in the name of the Father and Holy Spirit, so what's the big deal about me using the example that is given? Why are you trying to make an issue out of it?

But what you don't seem to get is that we are spiritually reborn ONLY if we are baptized into His death.

Quote c.moore
No , we would die when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior, and trusting him in our hearts , and as soon as we open our hearts to Jesus then we would physically die , not at any baptism.

Oh really? Where is your verse that shows that we die with Christ without being baptized? I have verses that spells out who has died with Christ and HOW dying with Christ is done:

Romans 6:3-4
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

According to verse 3, who was baptized into His death? Answer: "... as many of us as were baptized..."

According to verse 4, we are buried with Christ into death by what means? Baptism! ---> "...we were buried with Him through baptism into death..."

And you say that we don't die with Christ through any baptism? This is just another glaring example that shows that you don't really understand what baptism is all about. Stop listening to your TV evangelists and start listening to what the Bible says about baptism.

Now, I've shown you verses that clearly show that BAPTISM is HOW we die with Christ. Where are your verse(s) that show that we die with Christ by another means? Where are they?

The bible says how to be born again in Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Yeah, and Jesus clearly answered HOW one is reborn again in verse 5: WATER and the Spirit. And no, the water in verse 5 is NOT speaking of water in the womb, because Jesus is answering the question of how to be born AGAIN - AFTER THE WOMB!!

And wouldn't you know it, the apostles bapitzed people in WATER for the remission of their sins, and those people were reborn SPIRITUALLY because they crucifed their old man of sin and DIED WITH CHRIST THROUGH BAPTISM SO THEY COULD BE REBORN IN THE SPIRIT, WALKING IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE, AND BEING ALIVE TO GOD.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apollos and Francisco and Kevin,

Can you each tell me if you really believe that water can wash away the sins of the sinner?

Or do you believe that the Lord removes the sins (by the blood of Christ) of the believer because he was obedient when he submitted to the rite of ware baptism?In other words,were his sins taken away because he did a "work"?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

I do not believe water can wash away sins.

I concurred with your belief that repentance is necessary for forgiveness, and that the Blood of Jesus Christ merits the washing away of sins. I'm not certain if we agreed on this point or not, but I believe the Holy Spirit applies the Blood of Jesus to the repentant sinner.

Where we differ is HOW the Holy Spirit applies the Blood.

I believe the normative way is through water baptism, but there is also the baptism of desire and the martyrs baptism, or baptism by blood (the sinners own blood sacrificed for their belief in Jesus Christ.)

I do not believe water baptism is a 'work'. When Jesus covered the blind man's eyes with mud and told him to wash in the pool at Siloam, he was not performing a 'work'. He was following the instructions of Jesus. A grace was conferred on that blind man, through the water in the pool, to restore the man's sight.

I believe Jesus instructed us that we must be 'born of water and the spirit' to enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe water baptism to be following Jesus' instructions in that regard. So, it also is not a 'work.'

Because baptism is not a 'work', an unrepentant person who is baptized is not forgiven (personal belief). If baptism were a 'work', even an unrepentant sinner who is baptized would justifiably expect to be forgiven. I personally do not believe that's the way it works. By the same reasoning, if the blind man had not had faith that Jesus could cure his ailment, washing in the pool at Siloam would have only removed the mud, but not restored his sight.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

Can you each tell me if you really believe that water can wash away the sins of the sinner?

I've already explained what I believe, that we are washed by the blood of Jesus through water baptism in His name.

Or do you believe that the Lord removes the sins (by the blood of Christ) of the believer because he was obedient when he submitted to the rite of ware baptism?In other words,were his sins taken away because he did a "work"?

The believer's sins are taken away when they obey the command of baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

I have this feeling that you are going to throw Eph 2:8 at me. If you are, don't bother, because I agree with that verse. I agree with it when it says that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

Where I'm sure we are going to differ is what kind of faith Ephesians 2:8 is speaking about. I know for a fact that it's NOT a faith that is DEAD unto itself. Faith by itself (without works) is dead. A dead faith doesn't save.

The faith that saves is the kind that is alive with obedience to Christ's commandments. Obeying Christ is essential for salvation. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). If you just sit there and merely 'believe', and do not do His commandments, then you don't really know Christ, and are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). Liars will be in hell.