The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

c.moore,

That`s not fair, how did you figure one of the scriptures out??

Don't you know I'm psychic? Just kidding. No, I seem to remember you trying to use this passage a while back.

Let's look at Romans 6 a bit closer. I'm going to cover a bit more than just verse 5 to try and show you the whole picture.

1) To whom is Romans 6:1-11 refering to?

Verse 3 hold this answer: "... as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus..."

2) What does baptism DO for the believer?

IF one is united in the likeness of His death (through baptism), the believer will:

• Be in the likeness of His resurrection (verse 5)
• Be dead to sin (verses 6,7)
• Be alive to God in Jesus Christ (verse 11)

These things are what baptism does for us. All of the things listed above are for the believer who under goes baptism - NOT FOR OTHER CHRISTIANS. Nowhere in there does it say something like "As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus have done this as a symbol of faith for other Christians." Nowhere.

When verse 5 says that we will be in the "likeness" of His resurrection, that's because we are not physically dying like Christ did. Rather, we are crucifying our old man of sin, thus dying of our old sinful ways. When we die with Christ through baptism, we then need to be resurrected, otherwise we would still be dead, which won't do anybody any good. And just as Christ raised from the dead, so do we also, spiritually, IF we are baptized into Him (verse 5), walking in the newness of life (verse 4). Verse 5, being resurrected in the "likeness" of Jesus's resurrection is essential for our salvation. If we were not resurrected in His likeness, we would NOT be alive to God (verse 11), because we would still be dead, buried in baptism. Baptism would be useless if we were not resurrected, walking in the newness of life (being reborn).

Now, exactly how are you trying to make verse 5 say that baptism is a symbol of outward faith for other Christians, considering the fact that verses 1-11 speaks of what baptism does for the believer who under goes baptism, NOT what it does for other Christians? You are teaching a man made doctrine.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Kevin,

Only Jesus who is God is able to forgive sins not some H2o.

If you would take a closer look at what I posted above your post, you would see that I said that there is nothing magical about the water, and that it is the blood of Christ which washes our sins away THROUGH water.

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

"Elect,according to the foreknowledge of God,the Father,through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT,UNTO obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST"(1Pet.1:2).

The sinner is "sanctified by the Holy Spirit" when he is "washed by the blood of Jesus Christ".

We recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit upon being water baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38).

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

Let get some things straight here on Rom 6.
Maybe it just some misunderstanding in definitions.

First what does your King James bible say on the top of the page in bold printing?

Does it say the newness of baptismal?

What is your meaning of likeness?

What is your meaning of likewise?

Now, what is your meaning a symbol?

What is more important in your christian life, the things which happen in your inside of you , or the things that happen on the outside??

What is more important for your life , the thing you put in your body , and mind, or the thing you put ON your body including your hats or your mind???

I think when you anwer these question I can understand where the err is your information Brother Kevin.

This is just a little advise scriptures to ozur spiritual newness walk in Christ Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Take it or leave it, it`s your choice.

Let God Bless you

 

[c.moore]

Kevin

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

In the name of the Holy Spirit

and

In the name of the Father almighty Jehovah

Which one is GOD ?????????

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

First what does your King James bible say on the top of the page in bold printing?

Does it say the newness of baptismal?

What does it matter? The important thing is what the scriptures themselves say, not the commenting of man. In any case, the heading says "Believer's Death to Sin in Principle". In other words, it describes the principle of how a believer dies to sin. The scriptures clearly indicate that one dies to sin through baptism.

What is your meaning of likeness?

From dictionary.com: The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance. This perfectly fits what I said earlier. We are not going to physically die like Christ did when we are baptized. Christ died on the cross. We bury ourselves into death through baptism (verse 4). We die with Christ. Christ was resurrected. We also, being baptized, are resurrected, just LIKE Christ was resurrected, but not in the same literal sense, for we don't phyically die when we are baptized. But we are indeed resurrected when we are baptized. How can one walk in the newness of life without first dying and then being resurrected (verse 4)? To have a new life means the old one is dead. To be alive again after being dead is to be resurrected.

What is your meaning of likewise?

Where are you going with this?

Now, what is your meaning a symbol?

To represent. I've explained in the past that water baptism represents what is actually happening upon being baptized. If a person hasn't been baptized, then they are still living in sin, because baptism is how we bury the old man of sin and put him away. If we haven't been baptized, we are not walking in the newness of life. And looking at verse 11, we won't be alive to God if we aren't baptized, because we would still be alive to sin... and you can't be alive to sin and alive to God at the same time.

The things mentioned in verses 1-11 actually happen to "as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus" (verse 3).

You have this idea that one is already saved before baptism. But how can one be "saved" when they are still ALIVE to sin? How? It is through baptism that we put away our old man of sin. How can one be saved if they are not ALIVE to in Jesus (verse 11)? You have to be dead to sin before you can be ALIVE to God.

Your belief that one is already saved before the point of baptism shows that you don't understand what baptism does for a person. If you understood, you would realize that a person cannot be saved while being alive to sin and dead to God.

And I say again, nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE in those verses does it say, or imply, that baptism is an outward show of faith for other Christians, or any other person. I've shown what baptism is FOR and what it DOES for the believer that is bapitzed, and it's a FAR cry from being a show of faith for other Christians.

What is more important in your christian life, the things which happen in your inside of you , or the things that happen on the outside??

I'll tell you what's important to me. I want to be dead to sin and alive to God. The Bible clearly says that baptism is how this is achieved. You seem to have this hang up that just because baptism in the name of the Lord uses water that it has no spiritual purpose. We recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit upon being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38), and our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ through water baptism.

Answer me this... do you think that baptism is a work of the flesh?

Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

If you understood what baptism is all about, you would know that baptism is what allows you to be born of the Spirit! We die with Christ through baptism and come out of the waters in the newness of life (verse 4). We are alive to God (verse 11). If we are alive to God, which means you MUST be dead to sin through baptism, then we are certainly reborn spiritually just as Christ said we need to in John 3:5.

Look at Ro.8:14 that you quoted. Those who are baptized are baptized because they were led by the Spirit, which is the word of God (Eph. 6:17). Acts 2:38 is a perfect example. They were led to baptism by the words of Peter who was inspired by the Holy Spirit. They were led by the Spirit to baptism. And as that verse says, those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. Amen!

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

In the name of the Holy Spirit

and

In the name of the Father almighty Jehovah

Which one is GOD ?????????

Where are you trying to go with this? The three are one (1 John 5:7). Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30), and the HS is God's Spirit. So seeing how they are one, when you baptize in the name of Jesus, you are being baptized in the name of the Father and HS as well, for they are one.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin you said:
From dictionary.com: The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance. This perfectly fits what I said earlier. We are not going to physically die like Christ did when we are baptized. Christ died on the cross. We bury ourselves into death through baptism (verse 4). We die with Christ. Christ was resurrected. We also, being baptized, are resurrected, just LIKE Christ was resurrected, but not in the same literal sense, for we don't phyically die when we are baptized. But we are indeed resurrected when we are baptized. How can one walk in the newness of life without first dying and then being resurrected (verse 4)? To have a new life means the old one is dead. To be alive again after being dead is to be resurrected

Quote c.moore
First you say its not literally that we die, so it must be in the sence of the spiritual like I`ve been trying to show you.
Even the dictionary says being like the physical of Jesus death, but the being like is still in the sence of the imaginary or invisible spiritual way of the death and resurrection of Christ.
What is the opposit of physical? IT`s the spiritual, and you verified that in your statement (but not in the same literal sense, for we don't phyically die when we are baptized).
Either you contradict yourself or you have false information because look at what you said here.
How can one walk in the newness of life without first dying and then being resurrected?

So you are admitting we do die physical or it has to be what I`ve been saying about it is all the new life in the spiritual world , and spiritual baptism.

You asked :Where are you going with this?

Quote c.moore
I am trying to show you that when the scriptures say likeness, and likewise is only a example of the real thing, or a symbol likeness.

I asked you Kevin :Now, what is your meaning a symbol?

You said:To represent.
and you said this to your definition of represent is a symbol, and you said :
I've explained in the past that water baptism represents what is actually happening upon being baptized.

So by you using this word represent is the same as symbol, as we preach , you just have proved We are correct in our teaching that water baptismal is a symbol and represent of Christ death and we dieing like him in the spirit which is the baptism that counts praise God.
Hey Good work Kevin, and this is what God told me to ask you these questions, and this is evidence that what you teach is backward, and is false, and you need to get ready to repent to all of us.
But I am not finished I will be back to put the ice on the cake for you so you can get free indeed my brother Kevin.

This what you said in this post will keep you quite for a long while wait and see.
I have to go to my revival disco prayer meeting now.

Peace

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

The outward symbol of baptism is a sign of the repentance that takes place inside us. BUT, baptism is not ONLY a symbol. Do you understand? Baptism IS a symbol, but NOT ONLY a symbol.

The Holy Spirit gives us our 'new life' in Christ when He washes our sins away in the Blood of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit applies this life saving Blood to our sinful souls THROUGH the waters of baptism, just as the Holy Spirit gave the world life through water in Gen 1:2.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You say that we receive the Holy Spirit upon being baptized in water.

But Scripture proves that that is not true,because Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water:

"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word."

It was later that they were baptized in water:

"Can any man forbid water,that these should not be baptized,who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?"(Acts10:44,47).

So an examination of Scripture proves that the believer is "sanctified by the Holy Spirit" and washed by the blood of Christ before he baptized in water.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Kevin,

You say that we receive the Holy Spirit upon being baptized in water.

But Scripture proves that that is not true,because Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water:

"While Peter yet spoke these words,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word."

It was later that they were baptized in water:

"Can any man forbid water,that these should not be baptized,who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?"(Acts10:44,47).

So an examination of Scripture proves that the believer is "sanctified by the Holy Spirit" and washed by the blood of Christ before he baptized in water.

Wrong again, brother Bubba!!! If your reasoning above was correct, the Samaritans would have received the Holy Spirit long before Peter and John layed their hands upon them:

Acts 8:14 - Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy spirit.

By the way, I've noticed how you have continually avoided answering my question regarding the eunuch, who you say was not water baptized into Christ. Did you maybe just miss the question the other three or four times I asked? In case you missed it, here it is again:

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Again,Francisco,there is not one instance in Scripture that states that anyone was ever water baptized into Christ.

Oh really??? What then WAS the eunuch baptized into? Look again:

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8:35-38, KJV)

It's obvious the eunuch was moved to baptism through Philip's preaching Jesus to him, it's obviously a water baptism, AND the eunuch confessed Jesus Christ is the Son of God just prior to going into the water. So, are you still saying the eunuch wasn't baptized by water into Christ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

I answered your words about the "eunuch" many times.There is not one word there where it states SPECIFICALLY that anyone was baptized INTO CHRIST by submitting to a rite of water baptism.

So either produce the SPECIFIC WORDS or please hold your peace.And please do not attempt to add words that are not there.

And it is you who never answered my question.In view of the following verse (and please notice that I did not stoop to the deplorable practice of adding words to Scripture) will you admit that the believer is BAPTIZED INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body..."(1Cor.12:13).

You just will not accept Scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN when it does not agree with your pagan church at Rome,will you?

And you did not address the verses I provided.Again,you just ignored them as if they did not exist,which is a very bad habit that you as well as the church at Rome has developed.

You yourself say that it is the Holy Spirit Who washes away our sins through the blood of the Lord Jesus.So we see that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized with water.

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit fell upon them is proof positive that they did not remain in their sins,because the Holy Spirit sure would not have indwelt them while they remained in their sins:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So we can see that the sins of Cornelius and his household were taken away before a drop of water even touched any of them.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

First you say its not literally that we die, so it must be in the sence of the spiritual like I`ve been trying to show you.

I said that we don't physically die like Christ literally did when we are baptized. And I'M the one who has been trying to tell you for a long time that water baptism in the name of the Lord serves a SPIRITUAL purpose, not a physical. I don't know HOW many times I've tried to tell you that water baptism serves a spiritual purpose. It is you who thinks it's physical just because it involves water.

Even the dictionary says being like the physical of Jesus death, but the being like is still in the sence of the imaginary

Again it's LIKE Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection because if it was exactly like it, we would physically die upon baptism, which doesn't happen. But what you don't seem to get is that we are spiritually reborn ONLY if we are baptized into His death.

Look closely at verse 5 and notice the KEY word of "IF". It says "IF we are united (yes IF) together in the likeness of His death (through baptism), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection," Look up the definition of the word "IF". If we are not baptized, we are still alive to sin, we haven't put the old man of sin away. The Bible clearly states that baptism is HOW we put away our old man of sin. And if we haven't put our old man of sin away, then we haven't died with Christ and aren't free from sin (verse 7). Nor will we be in the likeness of His resurrection, which as we both seem to now agree, is a SPIRITUAL resurrection, and if we are born of the Spririt we won't go to heaven!!

Therefore, baptism's purpose is NOT for the edification of other Christians. It MAKES the believer dead to sin and alive to God, walking in the newness of life.

I'm STILL waiting for you to show me that baptism's purpose is for the faith of other Christians. Verses 1-11 speak about what happens to the believer who is baptized, not what happens to other people who are standing by watching.

Either you contradict yourself or you have false information because look at what you said here.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. You just don't get what baptism is all about. If anything, you are contradicting you own beliefs. Observe. This is what I said:

"I've asked several times for you to show me a scripture that says that water baptism (baptism in the name of the Lord) is merely a symbol of outward faith for other Christians."

I was asking about WATER baptism. You then tried to use Romans 6:5. I thought you were under the impression that Romans 6:1-11 was speaking about spirit baptism! What happened? Are you changing your tune that Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism? If so, that's great, because it is speaking of water baptism in the name of the Lord. This is the same baptism that makes one dead to sin and alive to God (verse 11).

So you are admitting we do die physical or it has to be what I`ve been saying about it is all the new life in the spiritual world , and spiritual baptism.

I have never said that we physically die upon baptism... what are you talking about? I have always said that we do indeed "die" with Christ through baptism, but of course it's not a physical death. Do I really need to clarify things to THAT level with you? Do I really need to explain that when a person "dies" with Christ through baptism, that they literally don't physically die? I hope not. :doh:

And again, I'M the one who has been trying to show you that baptsim in the name of the Lord has a spiritual purpose, despite the fact that it uses water. When we die with Christ through baptism, we are reborn SPIRITUALLY. This will NOT happen unless one is baptized (see verse 5 -- IF).

You asked :Where are you going with this?

Quote c.moore
I am trying to show you that when the scriptures say likeness, and likewise is only a example of the real thing, or a symbol likeness.

Like I've said before, water baptism represents (now pay attention here) what ACTUALLY HAPPENS upon being baptized. The "real thing" DOESN'T happen UNLESS you are baptized. When you realize the significance of the word "IF" you will understand this (verse 5).

Here's another thing that shows the IF factor:

2 Timothy 2:11
11) This is a faithful saying: For IF we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

This verse makes LIVING with Christ CONDITIONAL upon DYING with Him. How do we die with Him? Baptism. The "real thing" that you speak of ONLY happens IF IF IF one dies with Christ through baptism.

So, dying with Christ through baptism ACTUALLY FREES YOU FROM SIN (Romans 6:7). For it is "he who has died" who is freed from sin. It also ACTUALLY makes you alive to God (verse 11). These things TAKE PLACE at baptism, and are certainly necessary for salvation.

So by you using this word represent is the same as symbol, as we preach , you just have proved We are correct in our teaching that water baptismal is a symbol and represent of Christ death and we dieing like him in the spirit which is the baptism that counts praise God.

Like I've said before, it represents what ACTUALLY HAPPENS at baptism. Those things that happen are certainly necessary for salvation (being free from sin, alive to God). And because those things are necessary for salvation, BAPTISM is necessary for salvation because baptism is HOW we receive those necessary benefits. That's why Jesus INCLUDES baptism in the requirements for salvation in Mark 16:16. That's why Peter says that baptism NOW SAVES YOU in 1 Peter 3:21... because baptism is NECESSSARY for salvation, which is what I've been saying this WHOOOOLE time.

You have this UNSCRIPTUAL idea that water baptism is for the benefit of others, and that's found NOWHERE in scripture. Quite simply, it's an act of obedience in which those things that are necessary for salvation (being free from sin, alive to God) ACTUALLY HAPPENS IF IF IF IF we die with Christ through baptism. IF.

Hey Good work Kevin[/qoute]

Thanks. I try.

you need to get ready to repent to all of us.

Repent of trying to teach people what baptism is all about? Never.

But I am not finished I will be back to put the ice on the cake for you so you can get free indeed my brother Kevin.

Icing on the cake eh? You need to make the cake, first. I'm still waiting for you to show me that water baptism's purpose is an outward show of faith for other Christians.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

By the way, if the water baptism in the name of the Lord is for the edification of other Christians, why didn't Peter say that in Acts 2:38?

Peter said: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissioin of sins..."

Why didn't he say "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the edification of other Christians..."

I've always said that the purpose of baptism is to make one free from sin and alive to God, and the apostle Peter agrees with me.

How long will you teach you UNscriptual man-made doctrine?

 

[Apollos]

He that hath an ear...

He that hath an ear...

Acts 10 tells us more of what was said during the conversion of Cornelius and household, while Acts 11, as 11:4 clearly states, expounds the events in order.

At this point in Acts 11 the thoughtful reader would be well advised to take heed of things already said in chapter 10, particularly…

Verse 6 – He (Peter) will tell you what you must do.
Verse 22 – Cornelius has sent for Peter “to hear words” from him.
Verse 33 – We are gathered “to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.”

The fact that it would be WORDS that would save Cornelius is further established as Peter expounds “in order” the things that happened…

Acts 11:14 – “Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.” (This is Peter quoting Cornelius quoting the Holy Spirit!)

But the biggest problem for those who would claim salvation by “Spirit” baptism in these two chapters comes in Acts 11:15:

“And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.”


Any reader with insight will see that here in 11:15, during Peter’s exposition of the events “in order”, we see that the HS fell on Cornelius at the START, the BEGINNING of Peter’s sermon as found in Acts 10:34-48 !!!

So what does this mean? It means that before Peter preached unto to them WORDS whereby they would be saved, before they heard words from Peter, and before they heard all things commanded Peter of God, the HS fell upon Cornelius and household.
HS baptism took place BEFORE Cornelius was told what he must do to be saved!

If we are to believe that it was HS baptism that saved Cornelius, then we of necessity ignore or otherwise overlook the prior passages that plainly state that it was to be WORDS whereby Cornelius and household would be saved !!!

But rather, for those who will recognize the truth, it is seen that it was indeed WORDS from Peter (inspired by the HS) that saved Cornelius! After miraculous confirmation by the HS upon Cornelius that Gentiles were to be fellow-heirs, fellow members of the body, & fellow partakers of the promise, Peter concludes his gospel sermon and asks the resistant Jews – Can any man forbid WATER that these should not be baptized? (They had already received HS baptism as confirmation to the Jews that the Gentiles SHOULD be converted!! Remember that miraculous events were used to reveal and/or confirm God’s word.)

Then the final WORDS that SAVED Cornelius and household…

Peter (with words) COMMANDED them to be baptized (in water) “in the name of the Lord” !! Acts 10:48. It was at the point of obedience with water baptism, not before, that they were SAVED.

HS baptism saves no one! That was NEVER the purpose of HS baptism.

But baptism “in the name of the Lord”, was commanded and it is FOR salvation!!

 

[Kevin]

Jerry,

But Scripture proves that that is not true,because Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water:

I've already shown that this doesn't happen to every believer, and you never responded. Look at the Samaritans in Acts 8:5-16. The HS didn't fall upon them as it did to the Gentiles. Why not? The falling of the HS serves a different purpose than when we recieve the gift of the Holy Sprit upon being baptized in the name of the Lord. When the HS falls upon somebody as it did the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, the recipients recieve miraculous abilities. This is not being baptized into His death, which is exactly why Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord after they recieved the HS.

Look at Acts 6:5-8. Stephen was full of the HS (verse 5), yet still had to have the apostles lay hands upon him so that he could preform the mircales through the HS. Two different purposes. Why did the apostles lay their hands upon him, when Stephen clearly had the HS before they did?

And yes we do receive the gift of the HS upon being baptized in the name of the Lord. It plainly states that in Acts 2:38. Upon this baptism, God's Spirit is within us, because we have crucified our old man of sins and have been reborn in the Spirit, being alive to God (Romans 6:1-11). Romans 8:10-11 speaks about how the Spirit of God dwells in you. Verse 10 is the qualifier: IF Christ is in you. Christ won't be in somebody who is alive to sin. Baptism is how we crucify our old man of sin. The body is dead because of sin. It's dead because it was buried in baptism, but the Spirit of life because of righteousness. We have life because we have obeyed the command of baptism, putting away our old man of sin, and walking in the newess of life, being alive to God and dead to sin (Romans 6:1-11).

And yes, Acts 2:38 is the same baptism that Romans 6 is referring to. Romans 6 clearly says that baptism into Christ is the one that frees us from sin (Ro. 6:6,7). The baptism of Acts 2:38, which uses water, is for the remission of sins. It's the same baptism.

Also, Jerry, why do you continually dodge Fransisco's question? Since you don't think the eunuch was baptized into Christ, who or what was he baptized into? You have YET to answer this simple question.

Also, while your at it, are you ever going to answer why Christ came and died for us if there was already supposedly forgivness of sins?

And do you believe the Hebrew scriptures I pointed out? Do you still believe that bulls and goats can forgive sins, despite what has been shown to you?

 

[Kevin]

Great teaching, Apollos. :up:

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Francisco,

I answered your words about the "eunuch" many times.There is not one word there where it states SPECIFICALLY that anyone was baptized INTO CHRIST by submitting to a rite of water baptism.

So either produce the SPECIFIC WORDS or please hold your peace.And please do not attempt to add words that are not there.

I've repeatedly asked you to tell me what the eunuch was baptized into. You have not provided an answer. Take a look again and give me the answer to my question, 'WHAT WAS THE EUNUCH BAPTIZED INTO IF NOT JESUS CHRIST'?:

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8:35-38, KJV)

Besides, we would have a much larger problem than our disagreement over baptism if everything had to be proven with 'SPECIFIC WORDS.' For instance, show me the specific words that support the Christian belief of the Trinity, of monogamous marriage, of the dual natures of Jesus Christ. You can't because they're not there, but that doesn't mean these beliefs are invalid, nor the many other commonly accepted Christian beliefs that are not spelled out with specific words in scripture.

And it is you who never answered my question.In view of the following verse (and please notice that I did not stoop to the deplorable practice of adding words to Scripture) will you admit that the believer is BAPTIZED INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body..."(1Cor.12:13).

I concur completely that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into one body of Christ. Where we disagree is HOW the Holy Spirit effects that baptism.

I showed you previously how early in scripture the Holy spirit is connected with water in Genesis 1:2. When the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, the earth began to come to life. This was the beginning of life on earth. As previously stated, Tertullian said (in reference to Gen1:2) 'the Spirit of God moved upon the waters giving life, vigour and motion to things...'

If the Holy Spirit can give life to the earth through water, why can the Holy Spirit not give US life through water?

You just will not accept Scripture AS IT IS WRITTEN when it does not agree with your pagan church at Rome,will you?

And you did not address the verses I provided.Again,you just ignored them as if they did not exist,which is a very bad habit that you as well as the church at Rome has developed.

You yourself say that it is the Holy Spirit Who washes away our sins through the blood of the Lord Jesus.So we see that Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized with water.

I believe the event with Cornelius was an exception, made to let Peter and the other apostles know that salvation was meant for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. If you remember, Peter just had a revelation to that effect before the Cornelius event, and did not fully understand that revelation until he saw the Spirit descend on Cornelius and his group.

On the other side of that coin are the Samaritans. They were baptized and the Spirit still did not 'fall' on them until Peter and John laid hands on them. However, that does not mean the Spirit had not cleansed them of their sins through baptism. I believe it can only show the Spirit moves the way God wants him to move, and that while man is bound by the sacraments, God is not.

Just the fact that the Holy Spirit fell upon them is proof positive that they did not remain in their sins,because the Holy Spirit sure would not have indwelt them while they remained in their sins:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So we can see that the sins of Cornelius and his household were taken away before a drop of water even touched any of them.

I concur. But as I stated above I believe Cornelius and his group was an exception made to cause Peter to understand fully that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. That's not to say other exceptions couldn't be made then, or now for that matter, because God is not bound by the sacraments, man is.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Francisco]

Apollos,

Great teaching, Apollos.

I second that motion!

And you're doing great too Kevin!

Keep it up guys.........

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

Thanks Francisco!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

It is the repentance that brought remission of sins.

John´s baptism was a baptism "because of repentance".

Matthew 3:11 should read:

"I baptize you with water because of repentance."

It was not the water baptism that brought forgiveness of sins,but instead the repentance (or change of mind)--"that they should believe on Him who should come after Him,that is,Jesus Christ"(Acts19:4).

At Acts 2:38 the verse reads this way:

"Repent you all (and let each one be baptized because of the forgiveness of sins) and you all shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So you see,in reality the teaching here is that a true repentance leads to the forgiveness of sins.

In His grace,--Jerry