God's Truth
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Speak English. You are no more impressive to me than the Catholics who show off their Latin.
ECT The Grace of God. Is it merited or unmerited?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
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Speak English. You are no more impressive to me than the Catholics who show off their Latin.
Eagles Wings
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In chapter four of James, he is encouraging those who are believers to act with humility so that God's grace may abound. He is warning them of worldliness. I do not believe this verse proves that we must obey prior to justification.
Eagles Wings
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Well, I like learning Latin. I recently learned that D.V., stands for, Deo Volente, as God wills.
Anyway, I am convinced from Scripture that we can only obey the Word of God, by receiving God's grace first. Not all agree on the exact order of salvation, however, the act of grace and faith come from God first.
God's Truth
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You are wrong and you are hindering those who want to be saved.
Your Latin is proof that you do not have understanding about God's Truth.
God's Truth
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nikolai_42
Well-known member
This is not "shaming over obedience"...the contention is over the ground of salvation. I don't know of anyone who says it's okay to disobey God. But the ground of salvation is faith. The ground of works is faith. James said show my your faith BY your works. Works come AFTER faith. There is no boasting in works because they are God's works, not our own. That's why when men see our good works they glorify God. That's why Paul said first that he did not merit God's Grace but it was given to him and it was by that Grace that he worked - indeed, it was the Grace that did the work through him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Works follow...
Paul only did what he did because he was given faith. What if he had seen a vision of Caesar? What then? Would he have obeyed that voice? Why or why not? One can obey any voice one wants, but that doesn't make it right. To hear and obey - to work - requires something of God first. Otherwise it is all of us (faith and works) and we have whereof to boast.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 4:4-6
Grace is required for us to obey...
Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
Song of Solomon 1:4
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
The Grace of God must be there first.
Eagles Wings
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James is one of my favorite epistles, and it's taken me a while to understand it's meaning.
The bottom line in my understanding, is that our good works do not merit salvation. We do good works because our Lord has asked us to, and being that we love and honor Him, we do them with joy.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Amen . .
Heart motivation is what brings God's blessings of joy and spiritual growth. GT worries that Christians must do good works to save others. I do not think this is so, although our joyful obedience is a good witness of God's grace.
Salvation of others ultimately rests in His work; not ours. John 6:29
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So this murderer (or at least accomplice to murder) who was persecuting the church of God all of a sudden just decided to obey God?
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:17-19
How is it a gift if one must merit it by one's obedience? And if one's obedience is necessary for the gift, then we must change Romans 5:19 to read "by the obedience of many shall many be made righteous".
Eagles Wings
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Jamie Gigliotti
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Because His gift has conditions. He will not be mocked.
God's Truth
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Where do you get that I believe Christians must do good works to save others?
We have to obey God, God who says to humble yourself, fear Him, forgive others, repent...
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Cross Reference
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All God's gifts and promises are conditional. With Adam, God demonstrated that to be so.
I don't believe mocking is an issue with God in this.
Cross Reference
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And if you receive no grace, what then? Will free to do your own thing?Is not God worthy simply because of who He is that we demand something special from Him for our obedience, our love? Are you not looking for a pay up front in this? Sounds like it. So no, allegiance is a stand alone disposition irrespective of all else. God deserves our obedience because of who He is and looks for it.
What did Adam receive after given the command to obey? How 'bout Jesus when He stood alone in His temptations? Was that His grace from God?
God's Truth
New member
That is right. However, remember that Paul was unnaturally born. That means, unlike the other apostles, Paul resisted and fought against Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Paul had a glorious meeting with Jesus which caused Paul to believe. HOWEVER, Paul was NOT saved then. That is proof that we are NOT saved as soon as we believe. We are saved when Jesus
accepts us and he accepts us after we obey.
Jesus obeyed so we have someone to go through.
Jesus says he obeyed and remains in his Father's love, and if we want to be in Jesus' love, we have to obey.
John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Again, Jesus obeyed and so we have someone to obey.
Cross Reference
New member
How did Jesus become the captain of our salvation without being obedient????
Better understood if you had it say: "by the obedience of many shall many be made sons of God". Whom the Father loves, He chastens. . . unto obedience in Him.
God's Truth
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Jesus says you will NEVER enter unless you humble yourself.
Jesus says God will NOT forgive you unless you forgive others.
Jesus says repent or PERISH.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It was by Adam that sin entered into the world. If sin were simply a personal thing, that would make no difference to you or I because we would be on the same footing before God as he was. We aren't. As IN ADAM all die. We are all in Adam. Therefore, we all die. So to compare our situation to Adam is stretching it. But Jesus is even more of a stretch. It is by His obedience that we all benefit.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:17-19
It's not "Jesus obeyed, so I better obey" but we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.
Zech 3:1-5
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Regardless of what that means (and there is no way to make it say what you want to...but regardless) Paul goes on to say that it was the Grace of God that was there first and it was the Grace of God that worked in and through him to accomplish God's will. Not his own obedience.
You should stop there before going on. Note the cause here - God. Not Paul. Not his goodness or righteousness or ability or even inclination - God. Period. That right there is the ground. That's the point - whatever happened after is a product of this and this alone - not of Paul. Paul cannot, then boast in his works (therefore, his righteousness). It is all of (from) God.
You strain at a gnat but overlook the phenomenal work that took place in Paul for him to believe God. You minimize that (but agree it happened) then magnify what Paul did afterwards. It's like praising the fruit for its own beauty and ignoring the tree that made it possible. The fruit did nothing - it just grew. The tree provided a place for it to grow and fed it while it grew.
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:18
If what you say is true (salvation is dependent on our obedience) then you negate this :
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:4-8
And before you try to claim that this is just talking about the works of the Law, you are instituting another law. "Do this and live...". Sounds familiar...
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
Deuteronomy 8:1
So, again...blessed is the man to whom God will impute righteousness without works.
By necessity, such a command is of a different nature altogether...
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:7-12
What is it then?
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:21-23
So it can't be in me to obey properly :
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:18
So the law is on our hearts but the righteousness is imputed.