ECT The Grace of God. Is it merited or unmerited?

[Eagles Wings]

Jesus says you will NEVER enter unless you humble yourself.

Jesus says God will NOT forgive you unless you forgive others.

Jesus says repent or PERISH.

Psalm 32:5-7

No one can keep the commandments perfectly, and so with earnest purpose of heart and mind we cry out to God for help.

 

[Cross Reference]

Psalm 32:5-7

No one can keep the commandments perfectly, and so with earnest purpose of heart and mind we cry out to God for help.

Before or after the transgression? . . . Speak for yourself.

 

[God's Truth]

This is not "shaming over obedience"...

It definitely is shaming for obeying.

the contention is over the ground of salvation. I don't know of anyone who says it's okay to disobey God.

That is exactly why you are going against me, it is because I say we have to obey to be saved and to stay saved. You go against me and call it boasting.

But the ground of salvation is faith. The ground of works is faith. James said show my your faith BY your works. Works come AFTER faith.

Works can come after faith and before.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.


Did you read that?

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God WILL FIND OUT.

Do you understand that they will FIND OUT AFTER they do God's will?

There is no boasting in works because they are God's works, not our own.

Then why did you go against me? Then why does Paul say he can boast?

That's why when men see our good works they glorify God.

Because WE obey God that is how we have good works.

That's why Paul said first that he did not merit God's Grace but it was given to him and it was by that Grace that he worked - indeed, it was the Grace that did the work through him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Works follow...

Paul STILL had to obey to be saved.
Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."…

Paul only did what he did because he was given faith. What if he had seen a vision of Caesar? What then? Would he have obeyed that voice? Why or why not? One can obey any voice one wants, but that doesn't make it right. To hear and obey - to work - requires something of God first. Otherwise it is all of us (faith and works) and we have whereof to boast.

Just listen to yourself, you make no sense.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 4:4-6

Those scriptures are about not having to do the works the Jews used to have to do to clean themselves.

Grace is required for us to obey...

That is nowhere in the scriptures. That is a made up doctrine.

Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
Song of Solomon 1:4
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

That scripture is about when Jesus walked the earth and God only allowed those who already belonged to Him to come to Jesus to be saved. They were GOD’s, and God gave them to Jesus, they now had to go through Jesus to stay saved.

The Grace of God must be there first.

That is nowhere in the scriptures.

 

[Cross Reference]

But Jesus is even more of a stretch.It is by His obedience that we all benefit.

Benefit for what? Lets not be ambiguous. Spell it out.

". . . so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."[/I]Romans 5:17-19

Operative word: "shall" not will, as in it doesn't matter what man does with the gift because it does...

It's not "Jesus obeyed, so I better obey" but we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

Time to make better distinctions if you are going to discuss this.

In Christ is "afirmational", 65 times mentioned in the NT. In the Lord is "aspirational"(perspire) mentioned 42 times in the NT. In Christ is positional, gift, complete. [Col.1:28;Eph.2:6 KJV.] In the Lord is behavioral, effort, obedience. [Eph 6:1;Luke 6:46;Col 3:23 KJV]

In Christ and In the Lord are never used interchangeably.

 

[God's Truth]

Regardless

There is no regardless.

of what that means (and there is no way to make it say what you want to...but regardless) Paul goes on to say that it was the Grace of God that was there first and it was the Grace of God that worked in and through him to accomplish God's will. Not his own obedience.

God’s grace is to those who obey His Son. You will never ever get around that, ever.

You should stop there before going on. Note the cause here - God. Not Paul. Not his goodness or righteousness or ability or even inclination - God. Period. That right there is the ground. That's the point - whatever happened after is a product of this and this alone - not of Paul. Paul cannot, then boast in his works (therefore, his righteousness). It is all of (from) God.

Paul did boast. Believe the truth.

God wants us to obey Him, and then we are blessed, His family, His friends.

Not before and not any other way.

John 5:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

You strain at a gnat but overlook the phenomenal work that took place in Paul for him to believe God.

Being saved is no gnat. How to be saved is no gnat.

So, again...blessed is the man to whom God will impute righteousness without works.

The 'no works' is CIRCUMCISION.

By necessity, such a command is of a different nature altogether...

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul is explaining how the cut off Jews are still able to be saved.

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:7-12

What is it then?

The Jews who did not have faith were CUT OFF.

The law did not require faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:21-23

So it can't be in me to obey properly :

You are badly mistaken not understanding the scriptures.

One scripture can prove you wrong, here are more than one showing people could and did obey properly:

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.

Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:18

So the law is on our hearts but the righteousness is imputed.

What you have shown is your confusion and not God’s Truth. Paul was explaining who it was for those UNDER the law WITHOUT faith.

Remember, God cut off faithless Jews.

 

[God's Truth]

Psalm 32:5-7

No one can keep the commandments perfectly, and so with earnest purpose of heart and mind we cry out to God for help.

You have to obey to be saved, and as for you saying no one can obey perfectly, here is a scripture that should stop you from EVER saying that again:

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

 

[Eagles Wings]

You have to obey to be saved, and as for you saying no one can obey perfectly, here is a scripture that should stop you from EVER saying that again:

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Blameless does not mean they obeyed perfectly. It means they were godly and upright and did what the law required when they sinned against the Lord.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Nope. Faith causes you to follow commands.

Sent from my SM-N910T using TheologyOnline mobile app

Obedience to commands say this "ok God I have done such and such so now [dear Lord] You are obliged to do thus and so in response"

Faith takes God at His naked word and trusts Him no matter what.

 

[God's Truth]

Blameless does not mean they obeyed perfectly. It means they were godly and upright and did what the law required when they sinned against the Lord.

You are arguing about words that do not matter.

God didn't send Jesus because no one could obey Him.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.

Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.

 

[Nang]

Grace is not a reward for obedience.

Obedience is the reward of grace.

 

[God's Truth]

Obedience to commands say this "ok God I have done such and such so now [dear Lord] You are obliged to do thus and so in response"

Faith takes God at His naked word and trusts Him no matter what.

I do not recognize ANYTHING you say as coming from the Holy Bible.

You said before that obedience takes away grace.

It is as if you are working for the devil when you say those things.

 

[God's Truth]

Grace is not a reward for obedience.

Obedience is the reward of grace.

That is some man made mantra not from God.

 

[Nang]

Obedience is not necessary for salvation.

Salvation is necessary for obedience.

 

[Nang]

Repentance does not work regeneration.

Regeneration works repentance.

 

[God's Truth]

Repentance does not work regeneration.

Regeneration works repentance.

No one is regenerated/given the Holy Spirit UNLESS THEY REPENT.

 

[God's Truth]

Obedience is not necessary for salvation.

That is backwards and twisted.

Salvation is necessary for obedience.

That is some ignorant illogical nonsense.

 

[Nang]

Faith does not produce justification.

Justification produces faith.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith does not produce justification.

Justification produces faith.

You are backwards.

 

[Nang]

Man cannot/willnot believe in God.

Belief is the work of God.

 

[Nang]

Corpses cannot choose to live.

Resurrection precedes life in Christ.