Eagles Wings
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Good to agree on humility then.
ECT The Grace of God. Is it merited or unmerited?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
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God's Truth
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That is right, we agree that we have to be humble---now admit that it is obeying.
Please admit we have to obey to be saved and to stay saved.
Eagles Wings
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We can look to Paul for that answer, as Paul claims to have been the greatest of sinners.
God's Truth
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Those scriptures are about being made clean. Jesus makes those clean he wants to make clean, and he makes clean those who obey.
You have to tell us we do not have to do what Jesus says when he walked the earth! Who does that?
Eagles Wings
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This is the kind of circular arguing that is not true apologetics. When debating, it is more important to prove your case than to whine at your opponent, demanding they cow tow to your position.
God's Truth
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Paul was the greatest of sinners BEFORE he was saved---he did not continue to do the sins that qualified him as the greatest of sinners.
God's Truth
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You whining to me right now is no defense.
I prove everything I say with scripture.
Mere insults are nothing but proof you do not have truth.
God's Truth
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You do not know the scriptures.
Paul says he wants us to boast in each other.
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14.
Paul shows us we can boast in ourselves.
2 Corinthians 1:12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God's grace.
2 Corinthians 7:14 I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well.
1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth.
Paul boasting...
Acts 23:1
Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day."
1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast.
Eagles Wings
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Cross Reference
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Never mind detractiing to Paul, stay with what the scriptures states and give an answer from your own understanding?
"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James 4:6 (KJV)
If God's grace is unmerited, why doesn't God give grace to the "proud"?
Cross Reference
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Obedience is NOT works. It is obedience, commanded by God unto son-ship Not salvation which is a gift. Salvation is positional. Obedience is aspirational. The one imputed, the other imparted unto, righteousness..
God's Truth
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Are you deaf and blind? I just told you that the Word of God says to humble ourselves TO BE SAVED. How do you think that is not debating and proving my beliefs with scripture? Oh wait, you must not know that God tells us to humble ourselves to be saved. Here is the scripture:
Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
You will NEVER ENTER unless you humble yourself.
We have to obey to be saved.
Eagles Wings
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Wow, then you've never watched two Christians debating on youtube?
It's quite enlightening, as there are rules of engagement and rarely do they question the other's confession of faith.
It's just a matter of good manners.
God's Truth
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Obedience is works, and the only works Paul was speaking of that do not save are the PURIFICATION/CEREMONIAL WORKS, like circumcision and offering animal blood.
God's Truth
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Just stop trying to insult me and speak of the scriptures.
God's Truth
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What a bunch of confusion and nonsense.
Son ship IS SALVATION.
Grace is salvation and son ship, and it is all a gift and it is from obedience.
Eagles Wings
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You edited a word in the original question, which makes a bit of difference, however, my answer is still the same.
II Timothy 1:9
Grace is eternal
Romans 3:24
Grace is free
Romans 5:21
Grace is sovereign
Hebrews 4:16
Exodus 33:19
God's Truth
New member
None of those scriptures say we do not have to obey.
Jesus saves us all on his own, and he chooses whom he saves, he saves those who obey.
See Acts 5:32, and John 14:23, and many, many more.
Cross Reference
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Your answer is no answer. Apparently you are stumped. Why not admit it?
"If God's grace is unmerited, why doesn't God give grace to the "proud" like you??"
Eagles Wings
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You and I do not agree on the "ordo salutis".