ECT The Gospel Proper

[Rosenritter]

"Take up your cross and follow me" wasn't for the Grace believer. :doh:

Taking up your cross and following are works of the flesh.

Why do these folks insist on trying to follow the law? Even worse, they hope to shame us into becoming entangled in the same yoke of bondage they are (see yellow above).

Wow. Unwilling to take up the cross and follow Jesus from your own words.

Luke 9:23-24 KJV
(23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Won't be "shamed" into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him?

Romans 1:16 KJV
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 1:8 KJV
(8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Which "dispensation" is the gospel of Christ for? I'm guessing not for your "dispensation?" Your "dispensation" is ashamed of the gospel of Christ and calls it "works of the flesh" and a "yoke of bondage" and thus reject "taking up the cross" and following after Him?

What can be said to someone who admits to having no shame? Then go ahead then, let the wicked be wicked still, set apart yourself on the other side of the gospel of Christ with between He and thee a great gulf fixed, so that they which take up their cross cannot pass from hence. Tell yourself that you have another gospel than the gospel of Christ. His words were obviously not for you, surely your generation is without sin.

Mark 8:38 KJV
(38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[Danoh]

Wow. Unwilling to take up the cross and follow Jesus from your own words.

Luke 9:23-24 KJV
(23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Won't be "shamed" into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him?

Romans 1:16 KJV
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 1:8 KJV
(8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Which "dispensation" is the gospel of Christ for? I'm guessing not for your "dispensation?" Your "dispensation" is ashamed of the gospel of Christ and calls it "works of the flesh" and a "yoke of bondage" and thus reject "taking up the cross" and following after Him?

What can be said to someone who admits to having no shame? Then go ahead then, let the wicked be wicked still, set apart yourself on the other side of the gospel of Christ with between He and thee a great gulf fixed, so that they which take up their cross cannot pass from hence. Tell yourself that you have another gospel than the gospel of Christ. His words were obviously not for you, surely your generation is without sin.

Mark 8:38 KJV
(38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Your hodge-podge is a good example of what I pointed out in my post to her, just previous to your post to her, just now.

Where I wrote that...

This concept of a same principle in both economies, that is at the same time different in intent and application in each, is a common one in Scripture.

While the unawareness of it, is why so many non-mads end up erroneously concluding that so much that is not the same in Scripture, is in fact a "one size fits all."

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Clete]

All of us who leaves out everyone that has not been baptized.

Volume doesn't mean a thing.

:think:

My problem here is it never faded. Paul's last conversion in scripture before his arrest he is baptizing believers in the name of Jesus. Just as they did on Pentecost. It never faded.

Also, if it's not part of this dispensation, why would Paul baptize the jailer?
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.[/B].
Having believed included being baptized.

Well, I didn't pick this back up because I suddenly got interested in debating it with you. Besides, the others here have proven the point over and over already.

My primary purpose for engaging again was to point out that you were insisting on someone answering a question that presupposed your own premise. That's called begging the question and it is a tactic used by those who aren't on the firmest of ground.

The rest of your argument is based solely on proof-texting your opponents to death and nothing they say in response, nor any of there own proof texts are permitted to penetrate through your "water baptism saves" colored lenses.

What it boils down for me is the fact that water baptisms, of which there were many, were CLEARLY a prominent part of the Law and thus of the previous dispensation, at least so far as getting saved is concerned. But if you want to get wet, then have at it. As for me, getting wet is nothing and staying dry is nothing. I am saved because of what I believe, not because of a religious ritual.

Clete

 

[Clete]

"Take up your cross and follow me" wasn't for the Grace believer. :doh:

Taking up your cross and following are works of the flesh.


Why do these folks insist on trying to follow the law? Even worse, they hope to shame us into becoming entangled in the same yoke of bondage they are (see yellow above).

They insist on trying to follow the law because the have failed to rightly divide! They see the entire New Testament as having a single audience. There's no way for them not to be entangled in the law.

It's as if Acts 21 doesn't exist. Acts 21 is where it's plainly stated that the Jews were still sealous for the law and followed it but that the Gentiles were to "observe no such thing". This passage baffles them. Most Christians don't even know it exists even though they've read it several times. It's sort of invisible somehow, as is Galatians 2:9. The bible couldn't state more plainly that there are two seperate groups being ministered to in the first century but they do not see it and, as a result, they are up to their necks in all kinds of legalism, including 'lordship salvation', salvation by water baptism, sabbath observance, tithing, avoidance of pork and catfish, you name it. Of course some people go further down that road than others but it's all the same road.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Right Divider]

They insist on trying to follow the law because the have failed to rightly divide!

Indeed... many think that there was a dispensational change in Acts 2.

They have no support, but that doesn't slow them down much.

 

[Clete]

Indeed... many think that there was a dispensational change in Acts 2.

They have no support, but that doesn't slow them down much.

And that's if they're even dispensationalists at all. There's a whole lot of people that think the sermon on the mount apllies to today's believers and they pray the Lord's prayer every single day of their lives and believe that the forgiveness of thier sins is contingent upon them forgiving others, when, in fact, for today's beleiver, forgiving others is a result of our having been forgiven, not a cause of it.

 

[Right Divider]

And that's if they're even dispensationalists at all. There's a whole lot of people that think the sermon on the mount apllies to today's believers and they pray the Lord's prayer every single day of their lives and believe that the forgiveness of thier sins is contingent upon them forgiving others, when, in fact, for today's beleiver, forgiving others is a result of our having been forgiven, not a cause of it.

:thumb:

There is an immense ignorance of the law and the prophets, so that lots of people think that everything that Jesus did and said was "new".

 

[john w]

Wow. Unwilling to take up the cross and follow Jesus from your own words.

Luke 9:23-24 KJV
(23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Won't be "shamed" into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him?

Observe, the deception, from one of the many "post one verse in isolation"ists, i.e, she quotes Luke 9:23-24 KJV, then pounds the podium, accusing us wacko MAD's of being "shamed into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him "!!!!!!

But she conveniently deletes the verses preceding her proof text:

Luke 9 KJV
1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. 3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. 4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. 6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Are you going house to house, healing the sick, everywhere? Are you cleansing the lepers, raising the dead, casting out devils, per the Matthew 10 ff. parallel passage?

Why not-ashamed, are you?


Wow! You taught me that-I learned it from you.

Won't be "shamed" into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him

How about you wearing this hat, and selling all that you have, to follow him?:
Matthew 19:21 KJV

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Mark 10:21 KJV

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 18:22 KJV

Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.



The 12 did-left all:




Mark 10:28 KJV

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

Luke 18:28 KJV

Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.


What's the problem-ashamed, are you?

 

[Idolater]

...if you want to get wet, then have at it. As for me, getting wet is nothing and staying dry is nothing. I am saved because of what I believe, not because of a religious ritual.

Clete

Are you baptized though, Clete, full disclosure? If some believer who hasn't been baptized reads your post, they might think that you too are not baptized, but are you? That'd be important for said hypothetical believer to know, in weighing what you're saying, imo.

 

[Idolater]

I wonder if those arguing for baptism without water also practice communion without bread or wine, song without music, and prayer without words. To me it sounds more like an unwillingness to "take up your cross and follow me" if it means getting wet.

MADists don't 'practice communion' either, since that's New Covenant, and they think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that. I think they understand 1st Corinthians chapter 11 to be incidental somehow.

 

[john w]

MADists don't 'practice communion' either, since that's New Covenant, and they think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that. I think they understand 1st Corinthians chapter 11 to be incidental somehow.

No, we just don't "think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that," as you speculate. In contrast to you, genuine students of the scripture, respect it, as it is our final authority, and thus, we study the details of the book, and reject the theft, and stealing, by you, and those of your ilk, of promises that were not directed to you, as we don't steal others' mail, like you do, asserting that all of the scripture is written to everyone, specifically, is about them, and that all the commands in the book, are directed towards everyone.

The New Covenant was ratified/inaugurated, 2000+ years ago, but its enactment/institution, awaits for "the second time," the return of the "man of war," the Lord Jesus Christ, when he ends the evil issue, and fulfills the promises made unto the fathers(Romans 15:8 KJV), including the provisions of the new covenant, with whom? Not the body of Christ...



Jeremiah 31:31

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



Hebrews 8:8 KJV


Romans 11 KJV
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


"on pause," you snicker? Cute.


Survey the book, of the 4 major covenants. In all of them, the covenant was first instituted/ratified, and then, many years later, some, or all of the respective covenant's provisions were fulfilled/enacted/instituted.

In the "Abrahamic" covenant, for eg., the LORD God unconditionally promised a seed,i.e., son, to Abraham and Sarah; however, it took 25 years, before Isaac was given, as the seed. In the "Davidic" covenant, one of the terms....

2 Samuel 7:13 KJV

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.


...would not take place until the reign of King Solomon, many years later.


QED.


Romans 9:4 KJV

who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


Thieves, robbers.................

 

[Idolater]

"on pause," you snicker?

No. I wasn't snickering. I knew that MAD doesn't believe the New Covenant is in force today, and I knew there is an explanation, and I did not know precisely what it was, or upon which it is founded. But you have addressed that in your post.

 

[john w]

No. I wasn't snickering. I knew that MAD doesn't believe the New Covenant is in force today, and I knew there is an explanation, and I did not know precisely what it was, or upon which it is founded. But you have addressed that in your post.

Yes, you were-the above is spin, as your "and they think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that," was a snickering, condescending comment, on your part. We know it, and any "reasonably prudent person" would make the same assessment.

Knock it off.

 

[Idolater]

Yes, you were-the above is spin, as your "and they think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that," was a snickering, condescending comment, on your part. We know it, and any "reasonably prudent person" would make the same assessment.

Knock it off.

I'm not shy about criticism. That post was not critical.

 

[john w]

I'm not shy about criticism. That post was not critical.

Oh.

 

[Clete]

Are you baptized though, Clete, full disclosure? If some believer who hasn't been baptized reads your post, they might think that you too are not baptized, but are you? That'd be important for said hypothetical believer to know, in weighing what you're saying, imo.

I would never recommend anyone get water baptized today. Whether I made the error of performing the ritual or not is irrelevant to whether someone else should.

I used to think the folks at the World Wide Church of God had most of their doctrine correct - they didn't then and they don't now but I do not continue in their error(s), but neither do I go around disclosing to everyone that I used to be naive and stupid.

On what possible basis would you think that it would be at all relevant for me to disclose whether I used to observe the sabbath, no I mean used to tithe, no no I mean used to avoid unclean foods, no no no, I'll get it right - that I used to perform Jewish cleansing rituals - there, I got it! How it that relevant at all?

Clete

 

[Clete]

MADists don't 'practice communion' either, since that's New Covenant, and they think the New Covenant has been 'paused' or something like that. I think they understand 1st Corinthians chapter 11 to be incidental somehow.

Not all MADists - precisely because of I Cor. 11.

Maybe let MADists speak for themselves?

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, the principle of taking up one's cross / or denying oneself, is the same in both dispensations or economies - but both its intent and application differs in each (economy).

In the former, they were called unto what was basically impossible to maintain as to righteousness, in that the command itself was weak through (due to) the flesh (given their weakness in the flesh), and had therefore been more about making them aware of the fact that within them dwelt sin.

In contrast, Paul was able to assert he was crucified unto the world and that the world was crucified unto him, because the death that Christ died to, and that Paul had died to in Him, was to the body of sin working in one's members, that it might be destroyed of its power over the Believer.

Grace is able to enable one to do what the Law could not - to deny ungodliness.

Whereas, as Peter put it, the Law had been a burden even they had been unable to bear.

In contrast, Paul asserts one IS able to standfast.

Why?

The liberty wherewith Christ hath set us free - from the principle of sin and death.

Same principle - of self- denial - in both economies, but different in intent and application in each.

Theirs had been based on a Law of Commandments contained in ordinances that were against one - towards the intent that sin might appear...sin, Romans 7:13..

Ours is based on sin having been dealt with, put away, by the sacrifice of Himself (of Christ).

In other words, ours is based on Romans 5:6-8.

Note:

This concept of a same principle in both economies, that is at the same time different in intent and application in each, is a common one in Scripture.

While the unawareness of it, is why so many non-mads end up erroneously concluding that so much that is not the same in Scripture, is in fact a "one size fits all."

Are you saying what I posted is incorrect?

 

[glorydaz]

"Take up your cross and follow me" wasn't for the Grace believer. :doh:

Taking up your cross and following are works of the flesh.


Why do these folks insist on trying to follow the law? Even worse, they hope to shame us into becoming entangled in the same yoke of bondage they are (see yellow above).

Wow. Unwilling to take up the cross and follow Jesus from your own words.

Rosenritter doesn't know how to read. :rotfl:

"Unwilling" "from your own words".

Rather, it is unnecessary for those who are saved by Grace to bear the burden Christ bore for us. If you want to claim that you have to carry your own cross, then I feel sorry for you.

Now, I'll remove the quotes which demand works of righteousness, and see what we're left with.

Spoiler

Luke 9:23-24 KJV
(23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

No cross bearing here....Saved by grace through faith.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Won't be "shamed" into taking up the cross as Jesus would require of any and all that would follow him?

Not under the Grace Gospel. Salvation is a gift....not of ourselves. Lest any should boast AS YOU DO. :chuckle:

Romans 1:16 KJV
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 1:8 KJV
(8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Nothing there of cross bearing either. Is English your first language, Rosenritter?

Which "dispensation" is the gospel of Christ for? I'm guessing not for your "dispensation?" Your "dispensation" is ashamed of the gospel of Christ and calls it "works of the flesh" and a "yoke of bondage" and thus reject "taking up the cross" and following after Him?

And this is what happens to a person who takes up that "yoke of bondage". They, like the pharisee, says, "Thank the Lord I am not like other men." "I take up my cross", she says in her condescending tone. :chuckle:

What can be said to someone who admits to having no shame?

Well, if you insist on admitting to having no shame, I won't stand in your way. :idunno:

Then go ahead then, let the wicked be wicked still, set apart yourself on the other side of the gospel of Christ with between He and thee a great gulf fixed, so that they which take up their cross cannot pass from hence. Tell yourself that you have another gospel than the gospel of Christ. His words were obviously not for you, surely your generation is without sin.

Oh, my goodness....she's gone off the deep end. :shocked:

Spoiler

Mark 8:38 KJV
(38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Jesus was preaching to the Jews, Rosenritter.

 

[glorydaz]

They insist on trying to follow the law because the have failed to rightly divide! They see the entire New Testament as having a single audience. There's no way for them not to be entangled in the law.

It's as if Acts 21 doesn't exist. Acts 21 is where it's plainly stated that the Jews were still sealous for the law and followed it but that the Gentiles were to "observe no such thing". This passage baffles them. Most Christians don't even know it exists even though they've read it several times. It's sort of invisible somehow, as is Galatians 2:9. The bible couldn't state more plainly that there are two seperate groups being ministered to in the first century but they do not see it and, as a result, they are up to their necks in all kinds of legalism, including 'lordship salvation', salvation by water baptism, sabbath observance, tithing, avoidance of pork and catfish, you name it. Of course some people go further down that road than others but it's all the same road.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Legalism....you called it right, Clete,and they want everyone else to join them there.

Which brings these two verses to mind.

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.​