ECT The Gospel Proper

[Right Divider]

Gotta laugh at these dumb attack questions. By the "why aren't you building an ark" question, if applied to common analogy, there should also be a "pizza" dispensation, a "Chinese takeout dispensation", and a "Starbucks" dispensation to cover each of the three requests to different people.

Applying that reasoning to God, there should be a "talk to Pharaoh" dispensation, a "go to Egypt" dispensation, a "come out of Egypt" dispensation, a "go into Canaan" dispensation, a "don't go into Canaan" dispensation, a "go again into Canaan" dispensation, so on and so forth. Every time there is an instruction to someone different you make a new dispensation, and use that artificial divider to make each and everything non-applicable to everything else.

It figures that you did not even understand the point.

 

[turbosixx]

Your ideas of what scripture teaches are so far wrong that it's impossible to communicate with you.

Right back atcha.

I knew you couldn't find one after ch. 19.

Keep on ignoring the fact that it don't add up. I'm not saying I can't learn from you but I will NEVER believe mad.

Thanks for your time.

 

[turbosixx]

Gotta laugh at these dumb attack questions. By the "why aren't you building an ark" question, if applied to common analogy, there should also be a "pizza" dispensation, a "Chinese takeout dispensation", and a "Starbucks" dispensation to cover each of the three requests to different people.

Applying that reasoning to God, there should be a "talk to Pharaoh" dispensation, a "go to Egypt" dispensation, a "come out of Egypt" dispensation, a "go into Canaan" dispensation, a "don't go into Canaan" dispensation, a "go again into Canaan" dispensation, so on and so forth. Every time there is an instruction to someone different you make a new dispensation, and use that artificial divider to make each and everything non-applicable to everything else.

You never know what you're gonna get when they can't answer a question that disproves what they preach. I try to point it out and I hope that one day they will see it.

 

[Idolater]

A Christian is someone who is a member of the Body of Christ.

There were no members of the Body of Christ prior to Paul, something Paul states EXPLICITLY.

Paul says Romans 16:7 KJV. For everybody but MADists, this contradicts what you're saying here, but I understand that somehow MAD explains that "in Christ" there, doesn't mean 'in the Body of Christ.'

Ergo, the believers prior to Paul were not "Christians."

The believers prior to Paul were of the Church of ISRAEL, meaning they were part of the NATION of ISRAEL.

Peter referred to his audience as Christians though, didn't he? 1st Peter 4:16 KJV

 

[Right Divider]

Right back atcha.

I knew you couldn't find one after ch. 19.

Keep on ignoring the fact that it don't add up. I'm not saying I can't learn from you but I will NEVER believe mad.

Thanks for your time.

You think that one cannot be "saved" without water and YET you can find NOWHERE that Paul makes a statement of ANYTHING like that.

And you say that you "believe in dispensationalism" ... Ha

 

[Right Divider]

Paul says Romans 16:7 KJV. For everybody but MADists, this contradicts what you're saying here, but I understand that somehow MAD explains that "in Christ" there, doesn't mean 'in the Body of Christ.'

It's quite simple for those that are not indoctrination into some bogus religious philosophy to understand that there is more than one way to be "in Christ".

Peter referred to his audience as Christians though, didn't he? 1st Peter 4:16 KJV

He was late to the party:

Act 11:26 KJV And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.​

 

[JudgeRightly]

How were they added to the church of Israel

Through circumcision, the law.

differently than how Paul added to the BOC? Please point it out in scripture.

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

lain:

Things are often called by the first part of those things.

For example:

Pregnancy is often referred to as conception.
The nation of Israel (it's even in the name) is called by the father of the nation, Jacob, who's name God changed to Israel.

This is called a synecdoche.

Circumcision is as synecdoche of the law, because the first thing in the law for the Jews.

 

[Idolater]

It's quite simple for those that are not indoctrination into some bogus religious philosophy

lain:

to understand that there is more than one way to be "in Christ".

That's what I said that you MADists do.

He was late to the party:

Act 11:26 KJV And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.​

Even granting that he was 'late to the party,' doesn't explain why he'd use the word at all, when referring to his audience.

 

[Right Divider]

lain:

:zoomin:

That's what I said that you MADists do.

Do what?

Even granting that he was 'late to the party,' doesn't explain why he'd use the word at all, when referring to his audience.

Because all believers in Christ are considered Christians.

Both those believing Israelites of the nation that God chose for His earthly kingdom and those believing members of the body of Christ that God chose for His other purpose.

Eph 1:9-14 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

We are not yet in the "dispensation of the fullness of times".

 

[Idolater]

...all believers in Christ are considered Christians.

I believe this, but this doesn't square with what JR said:

A Christian is someone who is a member of the Body of Christ.

That excludes believers in Christ who are of the 'nation of Israel,' or of the 'church in Jerusalem,' doesn't it? So maybe I just need to take it up with JR then.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I believe this, but this doesn't square with what JR said:
That excludes believers in Christ who are of the 'nation of Israel,' or of the 'church in Jerusalem,' doesn't it? So maybe I just need to take it up with JR then.

There are no believers who are part of the nation of Israel today.

Prior to Paul's conversion, it was become a Jew and follow the law to be saved, or you will not be saved.

After Paul's conversion, no one else was added to the church of Israel as a Jew through circumcision, but instead were added to the Body of Christ through Christ's DB&R.

There is no overlap between the two gospels. Paul's conversion was the dividing line between the two.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I believe this, but this doesn't square with what JR said:
That excludes believers in Christ who are of the 'nation of Israel,' or of the 'church in Jerusalem,' doesn't it? So maybe I just need to take it up with JR then.

There are no believers who are part of the nation of Israel today.

Prior to Paul's conversion, it was become a Jew and follow the law to be saved, or you will not be saved.

After Paul's conversion, no one else was added to the church of Israel as a Jew through circumcision, but instead were added to the Body of Christ through Christ's DB&R.

There is no overlap between the two gospels. Paul's conversion was the dividing line between the two.

In other words, the Jewish believers (prior to Paul's conversion) were "in Christ" through circumcision.

Afterwards and to this day, people become "in Christ" through Christ's DB&R, by grace through faith.

 

[Idolater]

In other words, the Jewish believers (prior to Paul's conversion) were "in Christ" through circumcision.

Afterwards and to this day, people become "in Christ" through Christ's DB&R, by grace through faith.

But still, you said that 'Christians' are only individual members of the Body of Christ, and Peter wasn't writing to the Body of Christ, so the question remains as to why he referred to his audience as 'Christian.'

 

[glorydaz]

But still, you said that 'Christians' are only individual members of the Body of Christ, and Peter wasn't writing to the Body of Christ, so the question remains as to why he referred to his audience as 'Christian.'

In each of these examples where the word Christian is used, it is referring to Messianic Jews. Jewish believers such as the Disciples. These are not examples of those saved under Paul's Grace Gospel.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.​

 

[turbosixx]

Through circumcision, the law.

Nope. That's not what they did to be added.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Same thing Paul did.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

No one is being converted in that passage. God has given us examples of HOW Paul added people to the body. WHY don't you use those??? Acts 18 is AFTER the meeting in Galatians 2 and Paul baptized believers till his last conversion we are given.

 

[Danoh]

A Christian is someone who is a member of the Body of Christ.

There were no members of the Body of Christ prior to Paul, something Paul states EXPLICITLY.

Ergo, the believers prior to Paul were not "Christians."

The believers prior to Paul were of the Church of ISRAEL, meaning they were part of the NATION of ISRAEL.

Actually, they were also Christians - only, they were Messianic ones.

For those posters on here (non-MADs) who do not know what that refers to, it refers to the issue of the belief required of ISRAEL BEFORE Israel fell, said Messianics were sealed, the rest of ISRAEL was concluded blind or spiritual UNCircumcision, what was Prophesied of ISRAEL was put on hold ONCE MORE, until AFTER the fulness of a Mystery, or Non-Prophesied work among the Gentiles, that God had planned on before the world began, starting with Paul, who was also in spiritual UNCircumcision at the time of his salvation, Acts 9; Romans 2; Romans 11.

But the belief required of Israelites as Messianics was that Jesus was the Christ THEIR Law and THEIR Prophets did say should come - unto ISRAEL, see John chapter 1.

Which is why Peter refers to his Messianic own as Christians, in his writing to them.

Acts 17:11,12.

 

[glorydaz]

Nope. That's not what they did to be added.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Same thing Paul did.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.


No one is being converted in that passage. God has given us examples of HOW Paul added people to the body. WHY don't you use those??? Acts 18 is AFTER the meeting in Galatians 2 and Paul baptized believers till his last conversion we are given.

Haven't you read what Paul says? When he preached to those under the law (ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord).....

1 Corinthians 9:19-21
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.​

It's really too bad that you are bent on hoping to disprove something that is so easily explained. Instead, you just repeat and repeat the same nonsense, and flat out refuse to learn. I've watched you reject the truth, and I've watched you boast in doing so. Not good.

It's funny that you think Paul's preaching the Gospel all those years didn't result in people being saved. People are being saved to this very day by hearing the Gospel preached.

 

[Danoh]

In each of these examples where the word Christian is used, it is referring to Messianic Jews. Jewish believers such as the Disciples. These are not examples of those saved under Paul's Grace Gospel.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.​

Yep.

For as Christ told THEM...

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

To non-Mads, that is a reference to His 2nd Coming - to ISRAEL.

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nope. That's not what they did to be added.

Remember what I said about synecdoches?

Yeah, that still applies.

Circumcision is the law.

Baptism WAS REQUIRED BY THE LAW!

It is NOT required by the gospel of grace.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Same thing Paul did.

They were added to the church of Israel.

Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

... as an outward show of faith.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

No one is being converted in that passage.

Quit moving the goalposts.

You asked for me to show you with scripture:

How were they added to the church of Israel differently than how Paul added to the BOC?

You did not ask:

Show me in scripture where someone was converted in a different way than before.

I answered your question by showing you the two different gospels by which people were saved.

The gospel of circumcision (which was given to the Jews)

The gospel of uncircumcision (aka the gospel of grace; which was given to the entire world)

The former stopped being valid at paul's conversion.
The latter was how Paul was saved and how every believer since then has been saved.

God has given us examples of HOW Paul added people to the body. WHY don't you use those???

God TELLS US how people are saved, added to the Body of Christ.

Romans 10:9-10 is one of them. No baptism there.

Acts 18 is AFTER the meeting in Galatians 2

SO WHAT!?

and Paul baptized believers till his last conversion we are given.

So what?

Your argument is "because Paul baptised, then baptism must be required."

That logic doesn't hold up though.

God says through Paul that to be saved one must confess the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God has raised Him from the dead.

There is NOTHING about baptism in that verse, water or otherwise.

Just because someone is baptised after they are saved DOES NOT MEAN that baptism is required, even if everyone does it that is recorded getting saved.

The unstated (but certainly mentioned by you) argument that because there is no place in scripture that has people believing without baptising means that it's required is an argument from silence.

Correlation DOES NOT EQUAL causation, Turbo.

 

[turbosixx]

I answered your question by showing you the two different gospels by which people were saved.

The gospel of circumcision (which was given to the Jews)

The gospel of uncircumcision (aka the gospel of grace; which was given to the entire world)

The former stopped being valid at paul's conversion.
The latter was how Paul was saved and how every believer since then has been saved.

Thanks for the well put reply.

This part of your reply is where I'm having trouble understanding MAD.

I see the gospel given to the Jews beginning at Pentecost. When they believed the gospel(Jesus), they were baptized and added. So IF gospel of circumcision ended at Paul's conversion, why would Paul baptize the jailer after he believed Jesus?