ECT The "Church" at Acts 2 Was Not the Body of Christ

[Cross Reference]

As I understand it, the Holy Spirit came upon people even in the OT. The difference is when He came to take up permanent residence in the believer, then He is called the Comforter. The Comforter could not come until Jesus had departed to be with the Father.

Question: If the Holy Spirit came "upon" the OT saints before Jesus was Glorified, why the need for Jesus at all __ or at least His Glorification? Why didn't God continue in that vein in the 'imparting' of the Holy Spirit __ unless it was not an impartation intended to be understood in that manner?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John the baptizer had the Holy Spirit even before he was born.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

No, filled with holy spirit:

"for he shall be great in the sight of the Lord. And wine and intoxicant may he under no circumstances be drinking, and with holy spirit shall he be filled while still of his mother's womb" (Lk.1:15; CLV).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is NOT the issue Jerry, your understanding, or lack thereof about the Body of Christ is. Jesus ushered in the NC and made it VERY clear that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him.

If the New Covenant is in force now then this passage which speaks specifically of the new Covenant would have already happened:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

If the New Covenant has been in force since the first century then why does this prophecy concerning it remain unfulfilled?

 

[iamaberean]

I will begin the by quoting this verse which speaks of the "church" at Acts 2:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).​

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity" [emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).​

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."

Next, let us look at the events here which surrounded the ekklesia of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17).​

The exact same events are foretold here by Joel and these events surround the church, which in this case is Israel in her religious unity:

"Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation (ekklesia) , assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts...And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:16,27-28).​

So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.

Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Israel is the son of God, and in Hebrew ‘Israel’ means ‘He shall rule as God’ and that is exactly what Jesus does.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

What is the church? The body of Christ. So we can see that the Lord added to Israel, the body of Christ, daily.

Now this agrees with your interpretation, but not your conclusion.

 

[oatmeal]

The Holy Spirit bestowed a gift upon the believers, and that gift was the ability to speak in tongues:

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​

This was the promise of power spoken of here:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).​

There was no change except for the fact that this promise was fulfilled.

How significant was this fulfilled promise?

Acts 1:4-8

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1. They were commanded not to depart from Jerusalem

2. They were to wait for the promise of the Father, which, they heard from Jesus Christ. How significant is that?

3. As significant as the water baptism of John was to God towards Israel, it was to be replaced, as foretold in the Gospels, by baptism in Holy Spirit. Both Jesus and John the B, spoke of this eventuality in the gospels. Matthew 3:11-12, Luke 3:16-17, Mark 1:7-8, John 1:29-34. This promise is recorded in all four gospels. John made it clear that his water baptism was but temporary and would be replaced by Jesus Christ with a far greater baptism. How important was John's baptism in his time? How important is it to some present day denominations? Seeing, then that both John and Jesus foretold it, how important is the baptism in pneuma hagion?

4. Those present with him, asked in Acts 1:6 about the restoration of the nation of Israel. How important is the restoration of the nation of Israel? Yet Jesus Christ in answering that made it clear that compared to restoration, the far more important issue was the power they were to receive, the gift of pneuma hagion. How more important to Jesus Christ was it that they receive power? " But ye shall receive power...."

5. It is far more important that the twelve receive power than the restoration of Israel.

How important then, is the gift of Holy Spirit that they received on the day of Pentecost? Acts 2:1-4, 38, 10:44-47;11:15-18

The leadership in Jerusalem called Peter on the carpet, so to speak, Acts 11:4,when they heard that Peter had entered into the house of a Gentile. To the Judeans, Gentiles were but dogs, a most vile animal in that culture.

Yet it was the fact that the Gentiles of the house of Cornelius spoke in tongues that convinced the leadership in Jerusalem that God granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.

Repentance unto what? Speaking in tongues? The promise of the Father as was spoken of by Jesus Christ?

Repentance unto life. Romans 6:23

The day of Pentecost was the birthday of the church of grace, grace that would reach out to the Gentiles and the entire world to all those that would choose to believe

The reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit was the proof that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance to life" Acts 11:18

 

[iamaberean]

John the baptizer had the Holy Spirit even before he was born.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

What Luke doesn't say is that John received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift is eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The evidence is speaking in tongues.

 

[Red_Dirt]

Sorry did I state something that this is supposed to correct, because I'm not seeing it?

Absolutely not, Stan. I've not taken issue with your understanding of the sequence of events, nor the meaning, for that matter. Since there are varying interpretations, though, of both, I outlined the events of Acts One and Two just for the purpose of mutual understanding of the sequence of events.
I'm content to leave the interpretations open, but posted that summary in the spirit of, "Wait a minute. Let's get clear on the sequence of events that occurred during that fateful year of the Jewish High Holy Days. I have used that outline in Sunday teaching,
as a lay member.

For example, there is debate here as to the right understanding of The Body of Christ, in the sense of the church. That's fine, let the debates go on. If I have the sequence wrong, just let me know, PLZ.

 

[iamaberean]

If the New Covenant is in force now then this passage which speaks specifically of the new Covenant would have already happened:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

If the New Covenant has been in force since the first century then why does this prophecy concerning it remain unfulfilled?

The New Covenant was first given to the Jews by Peter and the other disciples, later Peter opened up the kingdom to the Gentiles. If one doesn't believe Jesus is on his throne today, they have no faith, and that is needed to be saved!

 

[beloved57]

If the New Covenant is in force now then this passage which speaks specifically of the new Covenant would have already happened:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

If the New Covenant has been in force since the first century then why does this prophecy concerning it remain unfulfilled?

Who said that prophecy is not fulfilled?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The New Covenant was first given to the Jews by Peter and the other disciples, later Peter opened up the kingdom to the Gentiles. If one doesn't believe Jesus is on his throne today, they have no faith, and that is needed to be saved!
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When the Lord Jesus will return to the earth then He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

That has not happened yet!

The Lord Jesus is not now upon His own throne but instead the throne of the Father:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev.3:21).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is far more important that the twelve receive power than the restoration of Israel.

A restoration of Israel was not needed. On the Cross the Lord had asked for their forgiveness. And the fact that the nation was offered the kingdom by Peter at Acts 3:19-20 is proof of that fact.

Ever since the Lord redeemed the nation of Israel from slavery in Egypt they were a "special people...above all people that are upon the face of the earth":

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

However, today there are no special people unto the Lord except those who are members of the Body of Christ. And in the Body all national distinctions have been done away with:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

Since in the Body of Christ there is no difference between the Jew other people that means that at some point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. That is because the Lord cannot act at the same time upon two wholly different and incompatible principles. In other words, He cannot deal with the Jews as a special people at the same time when He declares that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.

Therefore we can conclude that the Body of Christ did not begin at Acts 2 because the nation of Israel remained a special people unto the Lord.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What Luke doesn't say is that John received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift is eternal life.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. And on the day of Pentecost those who submitted to the rite of water baptism received the "gift" of being able to speak in tongues is spoken of here by Paul:

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).​

Those who submitted to the rite of water baptism on the day of Pentecost received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit--the ability to speak in tongues.

I am not aware that John the Baptist ever spoke in tongues.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What is the church? The body of Christ. So we can see that the Lord added to Israel, the body of Christ, daily.

Did you read my initial post which started this thread. There I showed that the events of Acts were in regard to the Jewish ekklesia, and not the Body of Christ.

 

[oatmeal]

A restoration of Israel was not needed. On the Cross the Lord had asked for their forgiveness. And the fact that the nation was offered the kingdom by Peter at Acts 3:19-20 is proof of that fact.

Ever since the Lord redeemed the nation of Israel from slavery in Egypt they were a "special people...above all people that are upon the face of the earth":

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

However, today there are no special people unto the Lord except those who are members of the Body of Christ. And in the Body all national distinctions have been done away with:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

Since in the Body of Christ there is no difference between the Jew other people that means that at some point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. That is because the Lord cannot act at the same time upon two wholly different and incompatible principles. In other words, He cannot deal with the Jews as a special people at the same time when He declares that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.

Therefore we can conclude that the Body of Christ did not begin at Acts 2 because the nation of Israel remained a special people unto the Lord.

Since in the Body of Christ there is no difference between the Jew other people

What does that mean?

Scripture references?

How about I Corinthians 10:32?

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

For that matter, do you have answers for the multitude of other questions I asked?

The nation of Israel was given the first opportunity to enter into this age of grace believingly on the day of Pentecost.

About 3012 chose to do so. The rest did not on that day. Most of Israel continued to reject God's promises and premises. A few individuals chose to believe.

The nation of Israel had already rejected the son of God, the Messiah, God had already reject them as a nation, the stage was set for the church of God to be composed of both Judeans and Gentiles who should chose to believe on the name of the lord Jesus Christ.

That the body of Christ is composed of both Judeans and Gentiles who chose to believe is evident. Ephesians 1-3

The Judeans were the first to believe to receive and as I Corinthians 10:32 became the church of God, as do Gentiles when they believe.

The three categories of I Cor 10:32 are in the most basic sense, mutually exclusive.

 

[iamaberean]

The gift of the Holy Spirit is a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. And on the day of Pentecost those who submitted to the rite of water baptism received the "gift" of being able to speak in tongues is spoken of here by Paul:

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).​

Those who submitted to the rite of water baptism on the day of Pentecost received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit--the ability to speak in tongues.

I am not aware that John the Baptist ever spoke in tongues.

At the time we are saved we receive the gift (singular) of eternal life.

Rom 5:16 Rom 5:17 Rom 5:18 Rom 6:23

Act 2:4 Act 10:45-46

The gifts are for the edification of the church.

About John, he was filled with the Spirit but he did not have eternal life. We know that for two reasons, Jesus had not been crucified, nor does it say he spoke in tongues.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At the time we are saved we receive the gift (singular) of eternal life.

A person receives the gift of eternal life the moment when they believe, not after being baptized with water.

 

[iamaberean]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
I will begin the by quoting this verse which speaks of the "church" at Acts 2:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity" [emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."

Next, let us look at the events here which surrounded the ekklesia of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17).

The exact same events are foretold here by Joel and these events surround the church, which in this case is Israel in her religious unity:

"Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation (ekklesia) , assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts...And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:16,27-28).

So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.

Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Israel is the son of God, and in Hebrew ‘Israel’ means ‘He shall rule as God’ and that is exactly what Jesus does.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

What is the church? The body of Christ. So we can see that the Lord added to Israel, the body of Christ, daily.

Now this agrees with your interpretation, but not your conclusion.

 

[DAN P]

Dan, as YOU don't know Greek, stop acting like you do.

Hi , and then prove me wrong where the Present Tenses , Voices and Moods are used , as anyone can learn them , even those with a low I Q , LIKE YOU !!:bang::bang:

DAN P

 

[Jerry Shugart]

About John, he was filled with the Spirit but he did not have eternal life. We know that for two reasons, Jesus had not been crucified, nor does it say he spoke in tongues.

What about the lord Jesus' words here which He spoke before He was crucified:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So those who believed had eternal life before the Cross.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Quote:

Nothing you said even begins to answer what I said in my OP.