ECT The "Church" at Acts 2 Was Not the Body of Christ

[Jerry Shugart]

Sorry dude, it is the correct understanding. All you need to do is accept John 20:22 as written. The "Promise of the Father" is what the now "Body of Christ" had to wait for which was the Acts 2 event. That part is not arguable either..

How could anyone receive the Holy Spirit at that time since the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent?:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

It is impossible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22.

You are totally confused.

 

[Red_Dirt]

I will begin the by quoting this verse which speaks of the "church" at Acts 2:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).​

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity" [emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of
So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.​

Then, are we to take it that when Paul addresses the churches of Galatia, he speaks to Israel, in her religious unity?

Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then you should pay attention and not waste my time.

So I shouldn't answer anyone else but you? If you think your time is being wasted on this thread then you can just leave it.

The NC was ushered in as soon a Jesus was born. It became totally complete when the Temple was destroyed in 70AD.

Where is your evidence from the Bible? Here is my evidence and as you can see this passage is speaking specifically about the New Covenant:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

If the New Covenant is in effect now then all those in the house of Israel and the house of Judah would have had their sins forgiven. That has never happened so this New Covenant promise remains in the future.

Plucking out only certain verses and NOT reading it in CONTEXT is what gets people in trouble all the time Jerry. Jesus had already been as Peter said in v14-16.

Had already been what?

And to what book and chapter are you referring when you said "v14-16"?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then, are we to take it that when Paul addresses the churches of Galatia, he speaks to Israel, in her religious unity?

Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia.

No, by that time the nation of Israel had already been temporarily cast aside. Ever since the Lord redeemed the nation of Israel from slavery in Egypt they were a "special people...above all people that are upon the face of the earth":

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

However, today there are no special people unto the Lord except those who are members of the Body of Christ. And in the Body all national distinctions have been done away with:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

Since in the Body of Christ there is no difference between the Jew other people that means that at some point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. That is because the Lord cannot act at the same time upon two wholly different and incompatible principles. In other words, He cannot deal with the Jews as a special people at the same time when He declares that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.

Therefore we can conclude that before the Lord could begin to build the Body of Christ He must had first temporarily cast aside national Israel

 

[Cross Reference]

How could anyone receive the Holy Spirit at that time since the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent?:

It is impossible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22.

You are totally confused.

Don't be so stupid and arrogant, sonny!!

You are the one confused! Sent for "what?" should be your question if you let John 20:22 say what it sez. But, maybe you are meaning to call Jesus a liar. Is that it? Jesus is a liar? Did He not say receive the Holy Spirit?? He lied when He said that? What is your problem?

The Holy Spirit in the context to which you refer and have quoted, is with reference to the "Promise of the Father" Jesus spoke of which was sent per Acts 2!!!

What you don't realize is that there are three manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are the one confused! Sent for "what?" should be your question if you let John 20:22 say what it sez. But, maybe you are meaning to call Jesus a liar. Is that it? Jesus is a liar? Did He not say receive the Holy Spirit?? He lied when He said that? What is your problem?

I have no problem except your lack of understanding such a simple thing.

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said here about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

These were the words of the Lord Jesus at John 16. He said that unless He departs to go to the Father the Holy Spirit would not come to them.

Next, by the time the Lord Jesus said the following words at John 20 He had not yet gone to the Father so it is evident that the Holy Spirit had not been sent to them:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22).​

Since the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father at that point of time then according to the Lord Jesus, "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.'

But this faulty translation has them receiving the Holy Spirit before the Lord Jesus had gone to the Father:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22).​

This is the proper translation:

And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, 'Get holy spirit!' " (Jn.20:22: CLV).​

And please do not call me "sonny" because I am 68 years old.

 

[Cross Reference]

I have no problem except your lack of understanding such a simple thing.

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said here about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

These were the words of the Lord Jesus at John 16. He said that unless He departs to go to the Father the Holy Spirit would not come to them.

Next, by the time the Lord Jesus said the following words at John 20 He had not yet gone to the Father so it is evident that the Holy Spirit had not been sent to them:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22).​

Since the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father at that point of time then according to the Lord Jesus, "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.'

But this faulty translation has them receiving the Holy Spirit before the Lord Jesus had gone to the Father:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22).​

This is the proper translation:

And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, 'Get holy spirit!' " (Jn.20:22: CLV).​

And please do not call me "sonny" because I am 68 years old.

That being the case, you are a very illiterate 68 yr old Rookie __ to be pitied.

I went back on my word of not engaging you. I won't make that mistake again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That being the case, you are a very illiterate 68 yr old Rookie __ to be pitied.

You might notice that I have been posting on this forum since 2001, ten more years than you have. If I am a rookie then you are still in elementary school.

I went back on my word of not engaging you. I won't make that mistake again.

Good! Adios!

 

[Cross Reference]

:dizzy:

You might notice that I have been posting on this forum since 2001, ten more years than you have. If I am a rookie then you are still in elementary school.



Good! Adios!

:dizzy:

 

[God's Truth]

We become the Body of Christ when we are born again; when His life indwells/is imputed to us asdemonstrated by what transpired in John 20:22.. Obedience is needed to sustain His Life in us. __If, that this, you consider yourself, born again.

Jesus only gives his Holy Spirit to those who believe and obey.
See John 14:23 and Acts 5:32.

 

[DAN P]

That being the case, you are a very illiterate 68 yr old Rookie __ to be pitied.

I went back on my word of not engaging you. I won't make that mistake again.

Hi and at least Jerry has it right on , by not using the Greek Article that is not in the Greek Text and it READS , Receive ye Holy Spirit , as Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED , as John 7:39 says !!

We see who the ROOKIE is here as he has yet to see , how important the Greek Article " THE " is !!

I have yet to see a Pentecostal see the MYSTERY as they are as BLIND as Israel and have rejected the MYSTERY as present by Paul ! :rotfl::rotfl:

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

No, they are not members of the Body of Christ.



No, the LORD has a purpose for Israel in her religious unity and another purpose for the Body of Christ.



They are not the same. However, in both cases the lord Jesus' death was an absolute necessity.

With that in mind, with the day of Pentecost and the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit, something that had never occurred before, would that not signify a change from previous policy or doctrine?

Acts 2:38

 

[glorydaz]

How could anyone receive the Holy Spirit at that time since the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent?:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

It is impossible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22.

You are totally confused.

As I understand it, the Holy Spirit came upon people even in the OT. The difference is when He came to take up permanent residence in the believer, then He is called the Comforter. The Comforter could not come until Jesus had departed to be with the Father.

 

[StanJ]

Hi and at least Jerry has it right on , by not using the Greek Article that is not in the Greek Text and it READS , Receive ye Holy Spirit , as Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED , as John 7:39 says !!

We see who the ROOKIE is here as he has yet to see , how important the Greek Article " THE " is !!

I have yet to see a Pentecostal see the MYSTERY as they are as BLIND as Israel and have rejected the MYSTERY as present by Paul !
dan p

Dan, as YOU don't know Greek, stop acting like you do.

 

[StanJ]

So I shouldn't answer anyone else but you? If you think your time is being wasted on this thread then you can just leave it.

You quoted MY post Jerry. If it wasn't for me then pay attention dn don't get me involved.

Where is your evidence from the Bible? Here is my evidence and as you can see this passage is speaking specifically about the New Covenant:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
​

If the New Covenant is in effect now then all those in the house of Israel and the house of Judah would have had their sins forgiven. That has never happened so this New Covenant promise remains in the future.

This is NOT the issue Jerry, your understanding, or lack thereof about the Body of Christ is. Jesus ushered in the NC and made it VERY clear that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him.

NOBODY has their sins forgiven unless they confess Jesus as their savior Jerry. Redemption is NOT the same as salvation. This is Christianity 101.

Had already been what?
And to what book and chapter are you referring when you said "v14-16"?

Please pay attention. The same chapter YOUR OP is on.

 

[StanJ]

As I understand it, the Holy Spirit came upon people even in the OT. The difference is when He came to take up permanent residence in the believer, then He is called the Comforter. The Comforter could not come until Jesus had departed to be with the Father.

Your understanding is correct and with all due respect, no offense intended, NOT hard to figure out, IF one knows how to read the Bible properly.

 

[Red_Dirt]

The Day of Pentecost has nothing to do with Pentecostal gifts, it was already a Jewish holiday that was also called the Fest of Weeks in the OT.
I can't say that it was a coincidence that the Holy Spirit was given on that day, because obviously it was God's intent that it was. Pentecost is Greek for 'fifty', which in Hebrew is Shavuot. Just as Easter and Passover overlap, so does the Shavuot and Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Neither one has stopped.

My understanding is that Jesus' triumphant return to Jerusalem, riding on a colt, was in order that he might spend the Jewish High Holidays with His people. The holidays began with Passover, which was a celebration of Independence, so named after the 10th plague on Egypt. They lasted 50 days. The final day, Pentecost, blessed the harvest and was the day of saying good bye until next year.

The Last Supper occurred on Passover. The arrest occurred on that day. The trial and execution followed, and, three days later, the Resurrection. So, the easy way to remember Pentecost, "fifty days from Passover, fifty days from Easter" is not quite accurate, but close.

After the resurrection, Jesus was with His disciples for forty days. Before ascension, he made his promise.
On Pentecost, the twelve were assembled. Mathias now one of them. That was the day of the Miracle of Pentecost.

Always pleased to be corrected. But, if the motive is to snipe or show off knowledge or opinion, please do not bother.

Prior to Pentecost, the disciples, converts, evangelists, witnesses, etc. for Jesus were each at his or her own work. After Pentecost, they were one...ond body, if you will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

With that in mind, with the day of Pentecost and the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit, something that had never occurred before, would that not signify a change from previous policy or doctrine?

Acts 2:38

The Holy Spirit bestowed a gift upon the believers, and that gift was the ability to speak in tongues:

"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).​

This was the promise of power spoken of here:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).​

There was no change except for the fact that this promise was fulfilled.

 

[StanJ]

My understanding is that Jesus' triumphant return to Jerusalem, riding on a colt, was in order that he might spend the Jewish High Holidays with His people. The holidays began with Passover, which was a celebration of Independence, so named after the 10th plague on Egypt. They lasted 50 days. The final day, Pentecost, blessed the harvest and was the day of saying good bye until next year.

The Last Supper occurred on Passover. The arrest occurred on that day. The trial and execution followed, and, three days later, the Resurrection. So, the easy way to remember Pentecost, "fifty days from Passover, fifty days from Easter" is not quite accurate, but close.

After the resurrection, Jesus was with His disciples for forty days. Before ascension, he made his promise.
On Pentecost, the twelve were assembled. Mathias now one of them. That was the day of the Miracle of Pentecost.

Always pleased to be corrected. But, if the motive is to snipe or show off knowledge or opinion, please do not bother.

Prior to Pentecost, the disciples, converts, evangelists, witnesses, etc. for Jesus were each at his or her own work. After Pentecost, they were one...ond body, if you will.

Sorry did I state something that this is supposed to correct, because I'm not seeing it?

 

[God's Truth]

How could anyone receive the Holy Spirit at that time since the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent?:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).​

It is impossible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22.

You are totally confused.

John the baptizer had the Holy Spirit even before he was born.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.