Summer Wonderland at BEL
- Thread starter Jefferson
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Did you eat a rotten fish taco today, Granite?
So are you saying that while you are attempting to stop him you will completely ignore First Corinthinas 10:31? - "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
They weren't living in a democracy therefore no citizen, Christian, Jew or Greek had any power to change any law. They would have been wasting their time. Additionally, the church was in it's infancy. When an church is in it's infancy and is in survival mode like the 1st century church was, it should be working on the ABC's of survival and not concern itself with church gymnasiums and social change until it has the resources to do so. The church in America today is in a very different situation. It has literally thousands of ministries with billions of dollars in net worth. God has different expectations for different churches based upon their individual situations. Just read the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3. God had all kinds of expectations for most of them but to the persecuted church at Smyrna all God basically said to them was, "just hang in there."
You conveniently ignored my other 2 questions from the same post. Here they are again:
1. Churches played a major role in the underground railroad helping black slaves to escape to the north. Were those churches out of God's will because emancipation was a political issue?
2. Did the Christians who hid Jews from the Germans sin because such actions fought against the political desires of Germany?
Yes. For example, I think a mother with an infant has no business risking a jail sentence by doing a sit-in in front of an abortion clinic. She needs to make sure she is there for her baby. I have no desire to criticize the lifestyle of Christians who are not active in social issues. I'm not that arrogant. However you do seem to criticize my Christian lifestyle of protesting and efforts at social change. Why the arrogance?
Answered above in this post.
If your view of what is right and what is wrong has nothing to do with your "Christianity", I strongly suspect that you are not Christian.
The "churches" in Revelation are not related to the Body of Christ. Please don't mix Israel's program with that of the Body of Christ.
Are you a believer in replacement theology?
You are also DEAD WRONG when you state ...
The Body of Christ or "church" has only one duty, one hope and one calling.
Ephesians 4:3 to 6.
“Endeavoring to keep the UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ONE body—and ONE Spirit—even as ye are called in ONE Hope of your calling—ONE Lord—ONE Faith— ONE Baptism—ONE God and Father.”
The above is the foundation of the unity of the Spirit of the Body of Christ. We are told, specifically and clearly, that, in this Divine age, there is ONE and only
ONE Church, which is a Divine organism. And that every true servant of Christ is under obligation, “to make all men see what is the fellowship (dispensation) of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God. Ephesians 3:9 The preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the Mystery.
What is the ONE HOPE?
Your questions, like the previous question about preventing a murder are specifically "engineered" or a better term, "loaded", as to attempt to prove a point.
Both the woman and unborn child are in imminent danger of murder. In the instance of the woman, you claim it is your duty as a Christian to intervene and if needed use deadly force in order to protect the innocent woman from being murdered. Yet you flip-flop and then come up with spin doctrine and state that it doesn't apply to the unborn.
Well, you might want to discuss that with the guy you promote. Listening to some of the on-line radio shows and reading his comments, he surely likes to drag those Christians who refuse to get involved in "social issues" and drag them through the mud.
I strongly suggest you have no idea what you are talking about. I know what is right and wrong but Jefferson's question back-fired on him and that was my point.
Golfvixen
New member
I'm no biblical scholar and don't want to start a derail, but have a question if ya'll don't mind. From reading Nightsongs posts, it brings to mind the "live in the world, but be not of it" passage (I know I probably didn't type that right). Where do you draw the line in terms of being active in politics and that passage? I've read Jefferson's posts, so I can understand that sentiment. I'm just somewhat confused, I suppose.
Your answers are appreciated.
Your answers are appreciated.
An example of being "in the world" - Fighting abortionI'm no biblical scholar and don't want to start a derail, but have a question if ya'll don't mind. From reading Nightsongs posts, it brings to mind the "live in the world, but be not of it" passage (I know I probably didn't type that right). Where do you draw the line in terms of being active in politics and that passage? I've read Jefferson's posts, so I can understand that sentiment. I'm just somewhat confused, I suppose.
Your answers are appreciated.
An example of being "of the world" - Having an abortion
Nightsong,
You began posting on this thread complaining about how horrible of a teacher Bob is and claiming that Open Theism as an idea was "invented" 28 years ago.
After you were shown to be wrong several times, you failed to answer my question about Jeremiah 18 found here and instead began a different discussion.
Can God say He is going to do something and then not do it?
You began posting on this thread complaining about how horrible of a teacher Bob is and claiming that Open Theism as an idea was "invented" 28 years ago.
After you were shown to be wrong several times, you failed to answer my question about Jeremiah 18 found here and instead began a different discussion.
Can God say He is going to do something and then not do it?
You have posted several times and are ignoring me. Please address my post.
Yes. I would.
Um... no. That's actually not true. I didn't say that. Please do not lie.
Stabbings are not glorified in our culture. No one says that it's okay to stab little girls. However, many people do say that it is okay to have an abortion. So your point is just a huge fallacy. Killing the man about to stab the girl will not cause more stabbings in the future. And also, if you killed that man, you would not be a vigilante.
Assassinating an abortionist will make him seem a hero; stopping a man from stabbing a little girl will not make that man seem a hero.
See the difference, and how you perhaps need to think through your point better?
By your logic, we should be shooting the women going into the local Planned Parenthood, not trying to stop them from having abortions.
One last point, 100 babies on average are saved a year at the local Planned Parenthood in town, so no, women going into Planned Parenthood are not 100% set on having abortions.
Yes. I would.
Um... no. That's actually not true. I didn't say that. Please do not lie.
Stabbings are not glorified in our culture. No one says that it's okay to stab little girls. However, many people do say that it is okay to have an abortion. So your point is just a huge fallacy. Killing the man about to stab the girl will not cause more stabbings in the future. And also, if you killed that man, you would not be a vigilante.
Assassinating an abortionist will make him seem a hero; stopping a man from stabbing a little girl will not make that man seem a hero.
See the difference, and how you perhaps need to think through your point better?
By your logic, we should be shooting the women going into the local Planned Parenthood, not trying to stop them from having abortions.
One last point, 100 babies on average are saved a year at the local Planned Parenthood in town, so no, women going into Planned Parenthood are not 100% set on having abortions.
Nightsongs, I have answered every single one of your questions with a crystal clear "yes" or "no" answer. I would like to see the same intellectual honesty from you. So let's try this again:
You said...
You completely refused to answer my question. Please answer every single one of my clear "yes" or "no" questions with a clear "yes" or "no" answer just like I have answered every single one of yours.
Was Paul wrong?
God's character does not change from dispensation to dispensation. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And one characteristic of God (in any dispensation) is that he expects different things from different people based upon different circumstances. God doesn't want a mother with a baby risking a jail sentence protesting abortion but I might be in God's will if I take such a risk.
That verse fits perfectly with I Corinthians 6:3 - "Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?" The implication of the passage being, "so start practicing now!"
I then asked you a clear "yes" or "no" question to which (not surprisingly) I can find no clear "yes" or "no" answer. Here it is again:
"Churches played a major role in the underground railroad helping black slaves to escape to the north. Were those churches out of God's will because emancipation was a political issue?"
Your obfuscatory answer was...
Here is yet another clear "yes" or "no" question that you refused to answer:
"Did the Christians who hid Jews from the Germans sin because such actions fought against the political desires of Germany?"
Please answer my question with a clear "yes" or a "no" (as I have had the courtesy to do for you) and then feel free to expound upon your answer as you wish.
You obfuscated on yet another question of mine. I proved to you that you have an incorrect assumption about me. I have no desire to criticize the lifestyle of Christians who are not active in social issues. Yet you criticize me for being active. Why are you so arrogant about criticizing my activist lifestyle when I am not critical of your lifestyle?
You dodged my question by talking about Enyart again. Please stop being rude and answer my direct question with a direct answer.
Even though your answer was an obfuscation, I will give you the courtesy of responding to it anyway. You wrote:
You said...
I replied by asking you, "So are you saying that while you are attempting to stop him you will completely ignore First Corinthinas 10:31? - "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
You completely refused to answer my question. Please answer every single one of my clear "yes" or "no" questions with a clear "yes" or "no" answer just like I have answered every single one of yours.
So what? Do you think it is illegitimate to try to learn something about God from non-Pauline writings? Paul himself said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works."
Was Paul wrong?
God's character does not change from dispensation to dispensation. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And one characteristic of God (in any dispensation) is that he expects different things from different people based upon different circumstances. God doesn't want a mother with a baby risking a jail sentence protesting abortion but I might be in God's will if I take such a risk.
No. I am a Pauline dispensationalist.
To be co-seated with Christ on the Father's throne as Ephesians 1:18-23 shows: "that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."
That verse fits perfectly with I Corinthians 6:3 - "Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?" The implication of the passage being, "so start practicing now!"
I then asked you a clear "yes" or "no" question to which (not surprisingly) I can find no clear "yes" or "no" answer. Here it is again:
"Churches played a major role in the underground railroad helping black slaves to escape to the north. Were those churches out of God's will because emancipation was a political issue?"
Your obfuscatory answer was...
Nightsongs, was that a "yes" or a "no"?
Here is yet another clear "yes" or "no" question that you refused to answer:
"Did the Christians who hid Jews from the Germans sin because such actions fought against the political desires of Germany?"
Please answer my question with a clear "yes" or a "no" (as I have had the courtesy to do for you) and then feel free to expound upon your answer as you wish.
You obfuscated on yet another question of mine. I proved to you that you have an incorrect assumption about me. I have no desire to criticize the lifestyle of Christians who are not active in social issues. Yet you criticize me for being active. Why are you so arrogant about criticizing my activist lifestyle when I am not critical of your lifestyle?
You dodged my question by talking about Enyart again. Please stop being rude and answer my direct question with a direct answer.
Even though your answer was an obfuscation, I will give you the courtesy of responding to it anyway. You wrote:
No he doesn't. He drags Christians through the mud who do get involved in social issues when they get involved on the wrong side.
You're the one making silly comparisons and claiming it's a "dilemma" whether or not you should commit arson and murder. When and if you ever make sense or can decide what you're talking about, lemme know.
Yes, boss.
Granite is being stupid.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nightsongs seems to understand right division pretty well.
Good! Glad we cleared that up.:cheers:
In your question/example, my attempt to stop this person has nothing to do with abortion. You are trying to draw a conclusion between the two. I countered back with an example showing that it is false.
In regards to Cor. 10:31. You are giving the verse a generic application. Once again, context is so vital. It takes 3 chapters (8-10) to unfold Paul's instructions. Paul starts with the discussion about "food offered to idols" in Chapter 8 and Chapter 10 is a continuation of that. The whole totality and purpose of Paul stating 10:31 and the subsequent 3 chapters it took to state this, all arrive at this pivotal point. It all comes down to this -
Cor. 10:32 - 33
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
THAT THEY MAY BE SAVED (salvation). It was ALWAYS about salvation. Ask yourself when you align yourself with Alan Keyes (whose Catholic) and promote him. Are you causing people to stumble as they see a man promoting idolatry, a false religion, salvation of works, worship of graven images, etc. I believe the answer is a clear YES. It is YOU who fail to follow Cor. 10:31 for you fail to see that your actions cause many to stumble.
Of course not but all of it must be understood through the Mystery. It must be read using "Mystery glasses", or read through the understanding and application of the Mystery.
The Body of Christ has a heavenly position. Israel was earth focused. We are heaven focused. Israel was set to have "heaven on earth", literally. That is why the physical earthly battles were waged. All the wars that Israel waged was tied in with this earthly kingdom.
What you do is you actually fail to rightly divide. While you may be "Pauline dispensationlist" when it comes certain doctrines. You complete fall and fail when it comes to understanding our duties and goals as the Body of Christ. You mix Israel's program with The Body when it comes to issues regarding government, our roles in government, politics, and activism.
Was it wrong to murder the innocent before or after the Law was given? Was it right to stand up for the innocent before the law was given?
You still have not answered my questions.
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