Summer Wonderland at BEL

[Delmar]

Here is a riddle for you batman -

One states:
"It is morally wrong to kill a child for the sins of the father."

But....God has killed children for the sins of the father, many times. (Angel of Death, The Flood, Amorite's, Canaanite's, Hittite's, etc, etc)

Then....Is God morally wrong?

No!

The answer is simple if you let go of your bad theology & stop following a man and accept God at His Word.

If your view of God were not so totally upside down you would see what a silly question you are asking. You do not understand why it is wrong for man to take an innocent life! Hint: In order to discern the answer, you need to figure out who that life belongs to!

It is morally wrong, for man, to kill a child for the sins of the father! When God decides that it would be better to take a person from this life to the next, no moral wrong has taken place!

 

[Nightsongs]

Stabbings are not glorified in our culture. No one says that it's okay to stab little girls. However, many people do say that it is okay to have an abortion.

Please come back to earth. You are lost in space. What in the world are you talking about?

The moral issue you presented was the following:
* The reason why you are involved and protest abortion clinics is because you are trying to protect the unborn. So you posed an example if someone seen a murder about to take place, would they intervene. You then use that example as the reason why you do what you do.

You failed to see that your example is flawed. If protecting innocent life by use of deadly force is a moral issue & a Christian duty, then it would apply in all circumstances. Both in your example and in abortion.

Assassinating an abortionist will make him seem a hero; stopping a man from stabbing a little girl will not make that man seem a hero.

Who cares what MAN or SOCIETY thinks? Are you here to please man of God? An abortion doctor is murdering the unborn by doing an abortion. A man stabbing a little girl is murdering the girl by means of stabbing.

Both are murderers and both are doing wrong. Who cares on what MAN or SOCIETY thinks is OK. I ask again, do you seek favor from MAN or GOD?

By your logic, we should be shooting the women going into the local Planned Parenthood, not trying to stop them from having abortions.

Never said that. It is a STRAWMAN that YOU erected. Nice try.

One last point, 100 babies on average are saved a year at the local Planned Parenthood in town, so no, women going into Planned Parenthood are not 100% set on having abortions.

Nice spin tactics! Around and around we go, where Wamba stops, nobody knows!

Let's say you are inside the Planned Parenthood office. A woman agrees to an abortion and enters into the Planned Parenthood office and signs off on the paperwork and goes into the room and lays on the table. She is 100% ready to have an abortion. No regrets and she is set to do it.

Here comes the abortion doctor walking down the hall. You see him coming and he is ready to the deed and murder the baby. He is about to walk pass you and enter into the room to commit the act of murder.
What do you do?

 

[Nightsongs]

No!
It is morally wrong, for man, to kill a child for the sins of the father!

Wrong! Nice spin!

So mans moral standards are HIGHER than God? Are you saying God is not subject to the same moral standards that man is?

Is it morally wrong to kill a child for the sins of the father?

Biblically, has MAN ever killed a child for the sins of the father?

Is killing an innocent life a moral thing to do?

 

[Granite]

Thanks, Servo. TG posted it, too. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but I will.

Is that okay with you, Boss Granite?

:chuckle:

I don't put any stock in anything from KGOV. Still waiting for you to explain why I should be expected to treat my neighbors as I would my spouse though.

 

[Servo]

That doesn't make what he did with that money and the latter public display of stupidity of destroying the property, a Biblical thing.

Pointing out to the country that our justice system is broken is not Biblical? Please show me a verse that proves your point.

If you think his actions were Biblically sound. Then you sir, are seriously blinded by man and have deserted God and His Word and follow man. I pray for you that your eyes would be opened.

Now you are suggesting that I am a legal positivist because I agree with a group of people that actually state the opposite? That we must obey God’s enduring commands rather than man? You got it completely backwards.

You are going to pray that may eyes be opened? To what? That OJ was innocent?

What was wrong was taking money and burning it. That he did it in the name of God. What was wrong was that money could have been spent for the Lord's Work and not for "publicity" for Enyart's cause. What was wrong was that he made believers and unbelievers stumble by his actions. That he invoked the name of God and claimed he was doing a Godly thing.

Enyart’s cause was to point out that a murderer got off the hook and that the system is broken. Why don’t you think that God is not interested in justice? The people who donated knew what the money was going to be spent on. Should they have checked with YOU first before they spent their OWN money?

I can go on and on but it seems you are impervious to the truth & reality.

But I am sure you will go on and on because you are an arrogant fool.

 

[Nightsongs]

Pointing out to the country that our justice system is broken is not Biblical?

You see. There is no point discussing this with people like you. Your loyalty is in a man.

Our justice system being "broken" is nothing surprising. People already know this. You act like this is something new. Society is quite aware and has been for a long time that the system has serious flaws.

Did the Apostle Paul go around protesting the Roman government?

You are going to pray that may eyes be opened? To what? That OJ was innocent?

Never said that. That is a straw man you created. Your eyes being opened was in reference that you follow God's Word and not a man.

Enyart’s cause was to point out that a murderer got off the hook and that the system is broken. Why don’t you think that God is not interested in justice? The people who donated knew what the money was going to be spent on. Should they have checked with YOU first before they spent their OWN money?

Not with me, they should have checked with God and His Word before purposely wasting money in the name of God. News flash! People know that OJ got off with murder and that the system has long, long been broken. You act like he was the first person to break this news.

So you believe it is a Godly thing for Christians to take money and set it on fire in front of large crowds and do so in the name of God??

Wow, you are so far gone.

 

[chickenman]

:chuckle:

I don't put any stock in anything from KGOV. Still waiting for you to explain why I should be expected to treat my neighbors as I would my spouse though.

Didn't know you were waiting on that from me. I give my wife much greater priority than my neighbor, too. That wasn't the point at all. But I would certainly want to stop someone from murdering my neighbor, or to stop my neighbor from murdering someone.

 

[chickenman]

So you believe it is a Godly thing for Christians to take money and set it on fire in front of large crowds and do so in the name of God??

Biblically, why is that a wrong thing?

 

[Granite]

Didn't know you were waiting on that from me. I give my wife much greater priority than my neighbor, too. That wasn't the point at all. But I would certainly want to stop someone from murdering my neighbor, or to stop my neighbor from murdering someone.

The difference between the two of us is that you say you would when I say I might not. Have a good weekend!

 

[Nightsongs]

Biblically, why is that a wrong thing?

Wow, were do I start?

Are you sincere in asking "why" Christians should not take money and set it on fire in front of large crowds and do so in the name of God? You ask why Christians should not invoke the name of God and wastefully destroy money?

Our first responsibility is to support our local church (Galatians 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:17,18).

And you ask why is spending $16,000 on OJ junk and then destroying it an unbiblical thing?

Philippians 4:14-19

Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.

Do you think Paul would take the money and gifts and then buy something stupid with it and then destroy it for publicity sake? Paul took the money and gifts and used them for the glory of God and His ministry.

Get real! You need to condemn the man for his actions. Stop defending wicked behavior!

 

[Delmar]

Wrong! Nice spin![QUOTE/] What spin? God is the creator of life! He designed your life to be lived in two stages. If He, being the creator of all life decides that it would be better to cut short th first stage and move you to the second, who are you to accuse Him of wrong!

So mans moral standards are HIGHER than God?

and you have the nerve to call others liars!

Are you saying God is not subject to the same moral standards that man is?

God is righteous in all ways. Never immoral, and subject to no one!

Is it morally wrong to kill a child for the sins of the father?

Is it morally wrong for you to continue beating your wife?

Biblically, has MAN ever killed a child for the sins of the father?

Is killing an innocent life a moral thing to do?

I answered these questions already. You just didn't like the correct answer!

 

[Nightsongs]

Wamba, Wamba, where are you???? I have a question for you.............

Let's say you are inside the Planned Parenthood office. A woman agrees to an abortion and enters into the Planned Parenthood office and signs off on the paperwork and goes into the room and lays on the table. She is 100% ready to have an abortion. No regrets and she is set to do it.

Here comes the abortion doctor walking down the hall. You see him coming and he is ready to the deed and murder the baby. He is about to walk pass you and enter into the room to commit the act of murder.
What do you do?

 

[The Graphite]

Wamba, Wamba, where are you???? I have a question for you.............

Let's say you are inside the Planned Parenthood office. A woman agrees to an abortion and enters into the Planned Parenthood office and signs off on the paperwork and goes into the room and lays on the table. She is 100% ready to have an abortion. No regrets and she is set to do it.

Here comes the abortion doctor walking down the hall. You see him coming and he is ready to the deed and murder the baby. He is about to walk pass you and enter into the room to commit the act of murder.
What do you do?

I can take a swing at that softball pitch.

I would try to non-violently block his path while talking to them woman to persuade her to not kill her baby, since there is a real possibility she might, as it happens thousands of time across our country. I would even offer to take her baby, myself. If that didn't quickly work and I couldn't stall them while calling them for help, I would then look for some way I could sabotage their ability to carry out the operation. Making myself throw up in their sterile operating room comes to mind.

If that effort failed or I saw no way to do that, I would likely attack the doctor's hands or gouge his eyes-- he can't perform the procedure if he can't use his hands or see. If I can't do that, I would escalate up to and including killing the doctor as a last resort.

As you can see, abortion clinics have very good reason to keep us as far away from the building and outside of tall fences as possible, blocking our view from seeing anything going on, whatsoever.

I can't say exactly what I would do because it would be based on numerous factors impossible to predict. It could escalate very slowly or very fast, depending.

 

[The Graphite]

Now, Nightsong, what would you do in a similar situation, except that you find yourself in a daycare center with a man who has parts of a complex rifle that he is now assembling as he tells you that he is going to shoot one of the two-year-old infants there.

(For clarity, I use the analogy of a disassembled rifle because in the scenario you provided, the thread of murder involves a complex process that hasn't begun yet, thereby giving me some opportunity to interfere with the process. Therefore, instead of giving you a man with a knife standing over a crib, I give you a man who is going through a process to prepare to murder a young child. Didn't want you to be confused by that element, which I realize could be very unclear without explanation.)

 

[Nightsongs]

If that effort failed or I saw no way to do that, I would likely attack the doctor's hands or gouge his eyes-- he can't perform the procedure if he can't use his hands or see. If I can't do that, I would escalate up to and including killing the doctor as a last resort.

As you can see, abortion clinics have very good reason to keep us as far away from the building and outside of tall fences as possible, blocking our view from seeing anything going on, whatsoever.

I appreciate your honesty. Your beliefs and theology lead to the above conclusion. My effort was to show this, which now it has been shown.

The difference is if I was in that clinic, I would NOT do anything to stop the doctor. First off, I would not be in or near a Planned Parenthood clinic as I do not participate in activism.

 

[Nightsongs]

Now, Nightsong, what would you do in a similar situation, except that you find yourself in a daycare center with a man who has parts of a complex rifle that he is now assembling as he tells you that he is going to shoot one of the two-year-old infants there.

First, I would call the police. Second, I would evacuate the building. My last resort would be lethal force if he completed assembling the rifle and was about to shoot at people.

I must make it known that I believe abortion is wrong but I do not protest abortion clinics. I do not get involved in activism.

We will differ on this view.

 

[The Graphite]

First, I would call the police. Second, I would evacuate the building. My last resort would be lethal force if he completed assembling the rifle and was about to shoot at people.

I must make it known that I believe abortion is wrong but I do not protest abortion clinics. I do not get involved in activism.

We will differ on this view.

So, we both agree that killing would be the last resort? I'm glad we're on the same page. :up:

As for calling the police, in my scenario they would come in and protect the murderer, making sure he can carry out his infanticide, so in that case, the analogy completely falls apart, obviously. So, what would you have done in the scenario you wrote for me? Please don't say "call the police?"

And hey, not everyone is called to be on the front lines in war as part of the military, and by the same token, not everyone is called to be on the front lines of a holocaust, either. (And lemme make it clear, I have been to the clinic a half dozen times; I'm not there every day, so I don't want to give anyone a false impression that I am anywhere near the hero that people like Ken & Jo Scott are, Bob Enyart, Leslie Hanks, Lolita Hanks, Will Duffy, Keith Mason, etc.

 

[Granite]

I can take a swing at that softball pitch.

I would try to non-violently block his path while talking to them woman to persuade her to not kill her baby, since there is a real possibility she might, as it happens thousands of time across our country. I would even offer to take her baby, myself. If that didn't quickly work and I couldn't stall them while calling them for help, I would then look for some way I could sabotage their ability to carry out the operation. Making myself throw up in their sterile operating room comes to mind.

If that effort failed or I saw no way to do that, I would likely attack the doctor's hands or gouge his eyes-- he can't perform the procedure if he can't use his hands or see. If I can't do that, I would escalate up to and including killing the doctor as a last resort.

As you can see, abortion clinics have very good reason to keep us as far away from the building and outside of tall fences as possible, blocking our view from seeing anything going on, whatsoever.

I can't say exactly what I would do because it would be based on numerous factors impossible to predict. It could escalate very slowly or very fast, depending.

So assault and murder are okay in your book.

And you guys accuse we skeptics of having situational ethics...

 

[Jefferson]

Nightsongs:

You wrote:

You mix Israel's program with The Body when it comes to issues regarding government, our roles in government, politics, and activism.

Do you vote?

I asked you if Christians who hid Jews from the Germans sinned since those actions fought against the political desires of Germany. You replied…

NO

So if German Christians who acted to save lives against the political desires of their country were not sinning, then why do you think Christians today are sinning when they likewise act to save lives against the political desires of their country? What’s the difference?

 

[The Graphite]

So assault and murder are okay in your book.

And you guys accuse we skeptics of having situational ethics...

Uhm, yeah, that's what I said. I love assault and murder.

And, if someone had tried to fight off the Gestapo as they prepared to shoot children in a Hamburg street, you would accuse that interventionist as someone who thinks "assault and murder" are okay.

Tons of sense.... Heaping gobs of sense. The whole reason I would intervene is because I do not believe assault and murder are okay.

If you don't know the difference between "assault and murder" and stepping in to try to prevent the murder of a helpless human being and using deadly force as a last resort, I can't even begin to help you.