Summer Wonderland at BEL

[The Graphite]

For Chickenman or any other pro-lifer who struggles with the idea of violent vigilanteism as a response to abortion, I can tell you I used to struggle with this years ago, for a long time, and literally lost nights of sleep on it, until I met Bob Enyart and heard him talk about this issue. No other pastor or Christian writer ever gave me peace on this issue until Bob.

I highly recommend this writing at Bob's website to Chickenman or anyone else who even has the slightest inclination toward considering such a road (including considering advocating others doing these things).

http://kgov.com/writings/abortion_vigilantism_worksheet

 

[chickenman]

For Chickenman or any other pro-lifer who struggles with the idea of violent vigilanteism as a response to abortion, I can tell you I used to struggle with this years ago, for a long time, and literally lost nights of sleep on it, until I met Bob Enyart and heard him talk about this issue. No other pastor or Christian writer ever gave me peace on this issue until Bob.

I highly recommend this writing at Bob's website to Chickenman or anyone else who even has the slightest inclination toward considering such a road (including considering advocating others doing these things).

http://kgov.com/writings/abortion_vigilantism_worksheet

No inclination toward considering such a road, TG. I oppose the idea, but I was just wondering out loud WHY.

Thanks for the link. Even though Granite doesn't have to worry about me, like he apparently thinks he does, I'll still look forward to reading the article.

 

[The Graphite]

No inclination toward considering such a road, TG. I oppose the idea, but I was just wondering out loud WHY.

Thanks for the link. Even though Granite doesn't have to worry about me, like he apparently thinks he does, I'll still look forward to reading the article.

Certainly, CM. I do know the feeling; I never considered acting in that direction either, but I struggled with whether I should advocate it when others do. Drop me a line anytime.

 

[Granite]

I have no idea what you're talking about, Granite. I'm not looking for anyone to tell me anything. Don't need any atta-boys. You're reading something into my posts that just isn't there.

If 100 TOL'ers told me, "Yeah, I think we'd be justified in blowing up abortion clinics", that wouldn't help me any, and I wouldn't go out and do anything like that. I simply noted that Nightsongs raised a thought-provoking issue.

Can you not see the parallel in the examples I raised? Right or wrong, can you not see the parallel? If a law were passed that said we are not to, without consent, enter into another's property under ANY condition, even if there is a crime inside, would I still have an obligation to stop a crime in my neighbor's home?

I'm not implying anything, not expressing a desire, just thinking out loud. So stop being...whatever it is that you're being, Granite.

There is no "dilemma" to be had when confronted with the prospect of either murdering someone or committing arson. You're inventing a problem where none exists.

 

[chickenman]

There is no "dilemma" to be had when confronted with the prospect of either murdering someone or committing arson. You're inventing a problem where none exists.

If the government determines that it is unlawful to kill anybody, ever, under ANY circumstance, then killing anyone under any circumstance would be legally called "murder". If such a law existed and someone is about to put a bullet in your wife's head, would you ask him to kindly stop...or would you take his head off? If the latter (the right choice), you would be a murderer according to the law. But did you do a good thing?

 

[Granite]

If the government determines that it is unlawful to kill anybody, ever, under ANY circumstance, then killing anyone under any circumstance would be legally called "murder". If such a law existed and someone is about to put a bullet in your wife's head, would you ask him to kindly stop...or would you take his head off? If the latter (the right choice), you would be a murderer according to the law. But did you do a good thing?

Of course. She's my wife and I promised to protect her. That's not quite the same as the neighbor analogy...and it's getting further and further from your "dilemma" about whether or not to fight abortion with violence.

 

[Nightsongs]

Nightsong's I think he raises a really thought-provoking idea. If I know for a fact that someone is in my neighbor's house and is about to murder him/her, should I do whatever it takes to stop the crime? If my neighbor is, himself, a murderer and brings someone I don't know into his house in order to murder that person, should I do whatever it takes to stop the crime?

I think the answer to both of these questions is YES.

Should abortion mills be different? I'm not advocating bombing them, or killing an abortionist. But I have to ask myself: What's the difference? I can't say: "I shouldn't do it because it would be illegal trespassing." That wouldn't stop me in the example of my neighbor above. I can't say: "Killing the abortionist is, itself, a crime." That wouldn't stop me in the case of my neighbor above.

Again, I'm not advocating anything here. I'm just saying it's very thought-provoking. Maybe I'm missing something that makes it not so difficult, too. Because it really seems like a dilemma to me.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

Yes, there is a clear-cut dilemma that Jefferson, Wamba and others want to spin and deny. It is NOT difficult to see the problem. Jefferson, Wamba and others are just diverting to avoid this dilemma, which they brought upon themselves.

 

[chickenman]

Of course. She's my wife and I promised to protect her. That's not quite the same as the neighbor analogy...and it's getting further and further from your "dilemma" about whether or not to fight abortion with violence.

then substitute "wife" with "neighbor".

 

[Nightsongs]

I'll simplify this for you. If you saw a man come up from behind a woman with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, would you try to stop him, or would you think that trying to stop him would be a nonchristian political act?

Simplify? Hmmmm.... You are not as smart as you think you are. Your example/question backfired on you. You use the above question/scenario for means of justifying your anti-abortion stance and activism.

Now a dilemma arises with your scenario. If you believe in your above scenario, then....

If the government determines that it is unlawful to kill anybody, ever, under ANY circumstance, then killing anyone under any circumstance would be legally called "murder". If such a law existed and someone is about to put a bullet in your wife's head, would you ask him to kindly stop...or would you take his head off? If the latter (the right choice), you would be a murderer according to the law. But did you do a good thing?

 

[Lighthouse]

Simplify? Hmmmm.... You are not as smart as you think you are. Your example/question backfired on you. You use the above question/scenario for means of justifying your anti-abortion stance and activism.

Now a dilemma arises with your scenario. If you believe in your above scenario, then....

you're an idiot.

 

[Granite]

then substitute "wife" with "neighbor".

The relationship I have with my wife ain't the same as the one I have with my neighbors, bud. Why exactly do I need to spell that out?:chuckle:

 

[Wamba]

QUESTION FOR YOU -

If you saw a man come up from behind a little 5-year girl with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, knowing that you would have to use deadly force (shoot him) to stop him, would you use deadly force to prevent a murder?

Yes. I would.

WAMBA just admitted to the following -

Um... no. That's actually not true. I didn't say that. Please do not lie.

If WAMBA saw a man come up from behind a little 5-year girl with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, knowing that he would have to use deadly force (shoot him) to stop him, WAMBA would NOT use deadly force to prevent the murder of that child.

The reason WAMBA would not is the he believes that
you would be effectively doing his job for him but better. The murdered would now be a martyr. It is better for the murderer to stab and murder the 5 year old girl.

Stabbings are not glorified in our culture. No one says that it's okay to stab little girls. However, many people do say that it is okay to have an abortion. So your point is just a huge fallacy. Killing the man about to stab the girl will not cause more stabbings in the future. And also, if you killed that man, you would not be a vigilante.

Assassinating an abortionist will make him seem a hero; stopping a man from stabbing a little girl will not make that man seem a hero.

See the difference, and how you perhaps need to think through your point better?

WAMBA would as hard as he can to talk to the murderer, even the murderer is 100% intent in killing the 5-year old girl, but using deadly force to stop the murder of the 5-year girl would only set everyone back years.

WAMBA would stand there and watch as the murderer stabbed to death the 5-year old girl.

By your logic, we should be shooting the women going into the local Planned Parenthood, not trying to stop them from having abortions.


One last point, 100 babies on average are saved a year at the local Planned Parenthood in town, so no, women going into Planned Parenthood are not 100% set on having abortions.

 

[Delmar]

No inclination toward considering such a road, TG. I oppose the idea, but I was just wondering out loud WHY.

Thanks for the link. Even though Granite doesn't have to worry about me, like he apparently thinks he does, I'll still look forward to reading the article.

He doesn't think he has to worry about you. He is just twisting your words to try and make you look bad!

 

[Granite]

He doesn't think he has to worry about you. He is just twisting your words to try and make you look bad!

Chickenman doesn't need my help.

 

[Jefferson]

All your so-called questions are "standard practice" and repeated over and over in an attempt to defend your beliefs.

I asked YOU a question, which still hasn't been answered.

Can a Christian live a complete & honorable Christian life without ever getting involved in politics?

Yes, depending upon what your definition of "politics" is. I think the godly act of trying to prevent murder is not engaging in politics.

Do you?

Here's another question for you. I just answered your question with a crystal clear "yes." Here's my question: Did I dodge your question?

Now, after you answer that question, please answer my other questions below which you have run away from thus far.

 

[Jefferson]

If you saw a man come up from behind a woman with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, knowing that you would have to use deadly force (shoot him) to
stop him, would you use deadly force to prevent a murder?

Your answer: YES

Why is it right and just to use deadly force to protect innocent life in the above scenario but when it comes to abortion you become a hypocrite and refuse to use deadly force in order to protect innocent life from murder?

Both the woman and child are in imminent danger of murder. In the instance of the woman, you claim it is your duty as a Christian to intervene and if needed use deadly force in order to protect the innocent woman from being murdered.

Yet when it comes to the child, you become a hypocrite and then switch your stance and all of a sudden the innocent child is not worthy of protection of murder by use of deadly force as the woman was.

To quote you, "I asked YOU a question, which still hasn't been answered."

Don't be a hypocrite Nightsongs. If you complain about me aswering questions with questions, then don't you do the same thing.

I will gladly answer any and all of your questions. But this is going to be a 2 way conversation, not a 1 way interrogation with you being the interrogator. Therefore, it is your turn to answer my questions, unless you're a coward. Here they are again:

If you saw a man come up from behind a woman with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, would you try to stop him, or would you think that trying to stop him would be a nonchristian political act?

Churches were engaged in the civil rights battles in America. Were they out of God's will because civil rights was a political issue?

Churches played a major role in the underground railroad helping black slaves to escape to the north. Were those churches out of God's will because emancipation was a political issue?

Did the Christians who hid Jews from the Germans sin because such actions fought against the political desires of Germany?

Or is it only today in America that we should not ever dare to be so unpopular?

 

[Jefferson]

I'm not implying anything, not expressing a desire, just thinking out loud. So stop being...whatever it is that you're being, Granite.

The word you're looking for is "bratty."

 

[Jefferson]

He doesn't think he has to worry about you. He is just twisting your words to try and make you look bad!

That's what brats do.

 

[Granite]

That's what brats do.

:yawn:

 

[Nightsongs]

If you saw a man come up from behind a woman with a raised knife with a clear intent to murder her, would you try to stop him, or would you think that trying to stop him would be a nonchristian political act?

Yes I would. My attempt in stopping him has nothing to do whatsoever with being a Christian.

Churches were engaged in the civil rights battles in America. Were they out of God's will because civil rights was a political issue?

If their focus was civil rights, then yes, they were wrong.

The 1st century Christians had NO civil rights yet they were not going around attempting to overturn the laws. That was not their focus.

Now, TWO QUESTIONS FOR YOU -

Can a Christian not ever attend an abortion protest, demonstrate against corrupt politics, never demonstrate before an abortion clinic and be found to have lived a life complete in Christ and fulfilled their Christian duties?

Show me one example in the Bible where the Apostle Paul was involved in political activism?