Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elected4ever

godrulz



e4e -------- There is no passable way you can be secure in Christ and believe that you have the say so about your continued relationship with God. The two ideas are exclusive of one another. The Apostle Paul address that idea of your personal control in Galatians 3. He ask the question, Galatians 3:1 ٦O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 ŸThis only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 ŸAre ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The Apostle John testifies as what our relationship with the Father is, 1 John 3:9 ŸWhosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Apostle John also testifies as to our condition as long as we remain in this life, 1 John 4:13 ŸHereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 ٦And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 ŸWhosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 ŸAnd we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ٦Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 ŸThere is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

DO YOU FEAR THAT YOU MAY DO SOMETHING WRONG OR MIGHT SOMEDAY REJECT WHAT YOU NOW ASSUME YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE OF SOME CIRCUMSTANCE THAT MAY DEVELOP?

Your theology is the most inconsistent that I have seen.
:think:

:e4e:

Galatians 3 must be interpreted in its historical context e.g. issue with the Judaizers; relationship of the New and Old Covenants; law vs grace, etc. It is not about the OSAS issue.

I John 1:9 says that believers can sin. The verb tenses in the book show that believers do not continuously persist in sin. The Greek does not support the idea that it is impossible to sin if we are saved.

Other verses show the conditionality of salvation. Jude 24, 25 says that God is able to keep us. I do not fear my future failures, because I know and love God. I made a supreme choice to live for Him rather than myself. If I ever deviate from this in rebellion, I deserve the consequences of a severed relationship. I would be culpable and God would be vindicated. It would be my fault, not God's. There is no reason to fall from grace, but Scripture teaches that it is theoretically possible.

Salvation is a love relationship. It must be freely entered into and maintained. It involves the moral realm which involves choice. Traditional theology confuses the issue by moving things into the realm of metaphysics (things), seeing salvation as something irreversible that is done to us (misunderstands regeneration).

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by billwald

"If AOG is outside biblical Christianity (they are a very conservative Pentecostal group believing the essentials of the faith that all evangelicals subscribe to)"

My Daughter and her inlaws are AOG. I have been to her congregations in SanJose and in Phoenix. They both preach a "health and wealth" gospel - if you don't have money and health it is because of insufficient faith. It has messed them up. They tithe their pittance and wait for God to bless them.

Local churches have some freedom in belief. The official AOG position repudiates Word-Faith. These congregations are out of step with their denomination. They should consider going independent. False teaching is damaging.

 

[Sozo]

godrulz... I guarantee you that no Open Theist would have anything to do with you. Your view of salvation is anti-Christ, and a doctrine of demons.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

godrulz... I guarantee you that no Open Theist would have anything to do with you. Your view of salvation is anti-Christ, and a doctrine of demons.

Vote: Do the Open Theists here have a problem with my view of salvation and understanding of Open Theism (based on many posts elsewhere)? I have read many of the standard Open Theist books (Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders, Rice, Basinger, Pratney, Wolterstorff, Haskins, McCabe, etc.). My views line up in essence with their views.


What IS my view of salvation? How did you find out about my beliefs on soteriology, since I have posted limited information about my understanding?

I agree with the Southern Baptist, Robert Shank, on the doctrine of perseverance (reject OSAS).

I agree with the great scholar, Albert Barnes, on the nature of the atonement (there are at least 4 major views on the atonement with several being equally accepted by Bible-believing evangelicals...you are out on a limb to say a legit view is the doctrine of demons).

What is your view of salvation? TULIP/Calvinism/Reformed? I reject the Commercial Transaction THEORY of the atonement as unbiblical.

Are you sure most of our understandings are different?

Can someone shed light on sozo's personality or issues? I am trying hard not to equate sozo with bozo. Was there bad potty training (I apologize sozo for my frustration with your behaviour and irrational conclusions)

 

[elected4ever]

godrulz , the problem is that their writings are at odds with the scripture and to agree with them is to be at odds with the scripture. So much for your discredited scholars. Bad company.:doh:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elected4ever

godrulz , the problem is that their writings are at odds with the scripture and to agree with them is to be at odds with the scripture. So much for your discredited scholars. Bad company.:doh:

Sozo's contention was that I was out of step with Open Theists. I was suggesting that this comment was inaccurate. Whether Open Theism is biblical is another issue for another day. If we line up with proponents and views that are unscriptural, then our views are unbiblical (I agree).

 

[elected4ever]

I don't know what isms are. Makes no never mind to me what they are. If you are born again you cannot become unborn again. My salvation nor anyone's salvation depend on anything but the promises of God and if God cannot be trusted to keep His word then we are insecure. When you say that once you have accepted Christ and received the new birth then you can become unborn and that is a lie from the pits of hell. You are saying that God is untrustworthy. That's sick.

 

[godrulz]

God is faithful and trustworthy. Calvinism and Arminianism and Open Theism can hold to their views of the perseverance of the saints and uphold the character and attributes of God. The issue is not Christology, but anthropology= whether man has a free will or not. God keeps His Word, but do we always keep our word?

There are verses that talk about the security of the believer, but it is possible to cease believing (then the promises no longer apply). Other passages talk about the possibility of apostasy and the conditionality of salvation. This should not create insecurity for a child of God, but serves as a warning for those who lose their first love or flirt with the world and the flesh (Rev. 3; I John).

"Born again" is a metaphor. The analogies between physical and spiritual birth are not identical. The few similarities must also be contrasted with the many lack of parallels. Salvation is not a metaphysical change. Salvation is a change of ultimate intentions, relationship, and ownership.

Robert Shank, in "Life in the Son", explains biblically why the statement of being 'unborn' is not a logical argument paralleling the true nature of salvation.

 

[elected4ever]

godrulz

The issue is not Christology, but anthropology= whether man has a free will or not. God keeps His Word, but do we always keep our word?

E4e ----------- I understand what the flesh is like. After you and I were presented with the truth of Christ and repented of our sin, do you think for one minute that our flesh changed it's character? Off course not. Our flesh was dead to God. Our flesh was the enemy of God. Do you suppose that our flesh is any less so now? Our flesh natures hate God all the more. Why? Because our flesh natures still wont to control what we do. God in His goodness did not leave us to the devices of our flesh to determine our eternal destiny.

Do you believe that God would leave our eternal destiny to His mortal enemy? Why do we have such a hard time in the flesh? Is it not that we have received a Holy and righteous Spirit that is born of His seed and the love that we now posses constrains the flesh and there is a total all out war going own for control. Back and forth the battles rage. Battles between the living, the spirit that we have received from God and the flesh Gods mortal enemy.

godrulz

There are verses that talk about the security of the believer, but it is possible to cease believing (then the promises no longer apply). Other passages talk about the possibility of apostasy and the conditionality of salvation. This should not create insecurity for a child of God, but serves as a warning for those who lose their first love or flirt with the world and the flesh (Rev. 3; I John).

e4e -------- have you noticed the unconditional requirements of righteousness required by God? Jesus was the only righteous person that ever lived and that sir is the standard by which all flesh will be judged. In order to receive the Kingdom of God you must be as righteous as Jesus is. How are you, a mortal man going to achieve that righteous standard? The only standard by which we can judge righteousness is the law and if we fail to keep even the smallest part of the law we suffer immediate death. You honestly think that God would leave that decision up to you. Don't you know that if you could commit more sin after salvation that it would require that Jesus be crucified the second time and be put to open shame. It is not weather we choose to be saved and then not to be saved. It is the fact that after a very short period of time, the moment you commit one sin you are forever lost with no chance of recovery. You only get one bite at the apple. If you accept Christ once and taste the heavenly gift once for you to fall away there would be no more sacrifice for your sin.

godrulz

"Born again" is a metaphor. The analogies between physical and spiritual birth are not identical. The few similarities must also be contrasted with the many lack of parallels. Salvation is not a metaphysical change. Salvation is a change of ultimate intentions, relationship, and ownership.

e4e ----If the new birth is a metaphor then Jesus lied. If the new birth is a metaphor the Apostle John lied. The whole testimony of Christ and the Apostles become irrelevant. It's all a hoax and we participate in an exercise of futility and believe a lie. If the new birth is not real we are all yet in our sin and this conversation is moot. This one thing I know, if you are not born again your very name on this board is a lie and God does not rule in your life. It is that simple. If you are not born of the seed of God you are not righteous and you are are a sinner bound for a devil's hell and this saddens me immensely

 

[OMEGA]

Godrulz,

I think that from my experience with the Holy Spirit in my mind

is that it first affected me in my having a very Strong Conscience.

After that I was aware of anything and everything that would be

possibly a sin.

After many years I am Pre-Aware of any possible sin and guard

against it.

What is your Experience with the Holy Spirit ???

 

[godrulz]

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and convinces of truth. It is possible to grieve and quench the Spirit. He points to Jesus.

born again= born from above= born anew; Billy Graham quit using 'born again' because it became such a cultural cliche. It is used twice in the Bible, and is one phrase among many that illustrate the nature of salvation. Jesus did not tell everyone they had to be 'born again'. He used it in one context only.

Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of heaven (Jn. 3).

We are adopted as children of God when we receive Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit who reproduces the character and life of Christ in us.

The new birth is a reality. I contend it is a metaphor for salvation, but expresses spiritual truth. It is not a literal birth comparable to physical birth.

Why do sozo and elect assume I am of the devil or going to hell every time we differ or misunderstand a point? Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards, etc. differed in their theologies, yet were effective in preaching the Gospel. It is possible to be a Calvinist, Arminian, or Open Theist and be a genuine believer.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin

If you are making this statement to include Christians, then it further proves your relationship with religion, and not with Christ.

It is possible to be a Calvinist, Arminian, or Open Theist and be a genuine believer.

It is not possible to preach another gospel, and be a believer. You have repeatedly shared "another gospel".

 

[godrulz]

Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses preach another gospel and believe in a different god and Jesus.

The Great Calvinists and Arminians in the Body of Christ through the centuries had the wisdom and grace to recognize each other as fellow believers with differing understanding of some areas of theology. They did not deny the essentials of the gospel, which include the Deity and resurrection of Christ. The Gospel is the person and work of Christ.

Sozo accuses others of being cultists, while he behaves in the same manner as the non-Christian cultist. Only he or his group are saved, and anyone who disagrees with his unique understanding must be a non-Christian.

Is J.I. Packer a Christian? (Calvinist) Yes.

Is Phillip Yancey (Arminian, possible Open Theist) a Christian? Yes.

Are sozo and godrulz Christian? yes. Then act like it sozo, or change your subtitle from intolerant to plain old ignorant.

I John 1:9 Christians can sin. The Holy Spirit convicts unbelievers and believers of sin. Great Christians (cf. King David) have committed adultery, etc. (that is a sin) and have been restored to intimacy with God through repentance and new obedience (through the person and work of the Spirit). These ideas are self-evident and found in the lives of believers in Scripture.

Where specifically do I believe in another gospel besides the one once for all entrusted to the saints (Jude 4)? I do not see you defending the truth on the Mormon threads.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Zakath

I don't reject the Christian scriptures entirely, I merely reject certain interpretations of them.

Then why are you an athiest when you have tasted the goodness of Christ ???

the bible say`s who is not with Him is against Him.

How can you know the truth about the bible or interpretated it correctly when the truth or the Holy Spirit is not in you any more??

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses preach another gospel and believe in a different god and Jesus.

Yes they do, and that is obvious. They are not the wolves in sheep clothing.

The Great Calvinists and Arminians in the Body of Christ through the centuries had the wisdom and grace to recognize each other as fellow believers with differing understanding of some areas of theology. They did not deny the essentials of the gospel, which include the Deity and resurrection of Christ.

Satan knows that Jesus rose from the dead, and he knows that Jesus is God. Believeing those do not make you a Christian.

You sure have an obsession with the doctrines of so-called "Geat" mean of God.

Here I'll give you one of my own quotes...

"There are no great men of God; there is only a Great God of men"

I John 1:9 Christians can sin

Wrong! That verse is speaking to all men who would claim that thay have no sin. Those who have done so (claimed that they have sin) have been cleansed from all sin, and are the righteousness of God in Christ. Those who abide in Him cannot sin. 1 John 3:6-10

The Holy Spirit convicts unbelievers and believers of sin

That is a lie! The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin... because they DO NOT BELIEVE in Him! The Holy Spirit convicts believers of their righteousness in Christ. He renews their minds with the truth of who we are in Christ!

You are a classic case of store bought Christianity.

 

[c.moore]

godrulz

Quote:Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses preach another gospel and believe in a different god and Jesus.

Quote C.Moore I agree.

I also was taught if you don`t pay tithes even if you are poor and need every penny , this is why people are poor because they don``t tithes and give soi this is a reason for their poverty and depressions.

What do you think somebody??

All Blessing is cancelled out because a thief can`t be blessed after stealing from God personallly

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

godrulz

Quote:Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses preach another gospel and believe in a different god and Jesus.

Quote C.Moore I agree.

I also was taught if you don`t pay tithes even if you are poor and need every penny , this is why people are poor because they don``t tithes and give soi this is a reason for their poverty and depressions.

What do you think somebody??

All Blessing is cancelled out because a thief can`t be blessed after stealing from God personallly

c.moore...

The problem, dear c.moore, is that you need to "flee" from the assemblies that you have grown accustom. You are in a cult that has you focusing your attention on what God is going to do for you, how He is going to "bless" you! You have left your first love. The leaders of your assembly are men of a "depraved mind" and "deprived of the truth", whose sole desire is to teach you to obey their doctrines (the doctrines of men) for the purpose of gaining from you, and not God.

Please get your eyes off of yourself and fixed on Jesus! Stop obsessing over money and health, and live a quiet life in ALL "contentment", giving thanks to God in ALL things.

Jesus loves you.

 

[godrulz]

The verb tenses in I John 1 mean that a believer will not continuously sin and persist in sin as they did as an unbeliever. To say Christians never sin is the old 'entire sanctification' heresy that is out of sync with sound exegesis.

Note that I do not call you a cultist, Christ-hater, demonic, pervert because you lack basic interpretation skills to rightly divide the word on a peripheral issue.


A famous preacher was slandered in the media for supposedly committing adultery with his secretary. He was asked why he did not defend himself since he was innocent. He replied: "no offense, no defense."

I am wasting my time defending myself to sozo (Paul defended himself against slander), so how about we stick to the issues? Jesus is my Judge, not some legalistic Christian Pharisee.

 

[elected4ever]

godrulz, by your own testimony I have to judge you a sinner and without God. You do not know God. You are of your father the devil. You demonstrate this with ever post. You have not been set a liberty and you do not possess the seed of God so as to be born again. I hope I am wrong about you but it is clear. You do not know the things of God only of the flesh. You are a religionest and hope to entwine the weak and the helpless in your web of deceit. I do not say this to be mean but for your edification. You do not know God!

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The verb tenses in I John 1 mean that a believer will not continuously sin and persist in sin as they did as an unbeliever. To say Christians never sin is the old 'entire sanctification' heresy that is out of sync with sound exegesis.

Would this be the 'entire sanctification' heresy that you speak of...

"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."

"...to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus"

"...to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me"

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."