Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[godrulz]

I would distinguish OT giving to priests from NT giving. It would be illegal and unethical for people to give their money to a leader today (at least for charitable donation status). Churches must follow the law of the land in addition to the moral laws of God.

Many ministries or churches subscribe to umbrella organizations that have a code of ethics and accountability for funds. Missions boards disperse funds rather than a bunch of people giving to an individual who may be tempted to have multiple streams of money from well intentioned North Americans. This brings reproach on the gospel in foreign countries.

If we give to a church or ministry, there should be a board or something for accountability. This is wisdom, practical, and spiritual. A pastor should not be the direct recipient of funds (unless he is a cult leader).

I would not make a big doctrine on giving from OT practices that were limited to the Jewish priesthood and try to make this identical to the Church, the Body of Christ. Flesh out other principles and apply them in our day. If there is ambiguity in Scripture, then more than one model or pattern may be legit.

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz
I would distinguish OT giving to priests from NT giving. It would be illegal and unethical for people to give their money to a leader today (at least for charitable donation status). Churches must follow the law of the land in addition to the moral laws of God.

What are you talking about? First of all, churches don't have to become 501.3(c) CORPORATIONS. They choose to do so. They choose to take a government muzzle in order to get more money.

See: http://www.hr235.org/

Secondly, don't kid yourself. When you tithe some of that money is going to pay your "leaders". And if more people tithe, guess what happens at the next board meeting? Pay raises! Why not, God is blessing right?

Originally posted by godrulz
Many ministries or churches subscribe to umbrella organizations that have a code of ethics and accountability for funds. Missions boards disperse funds rather than a bunch of people giving to an individual who may be tempted to have multiple streams of money from well intentioned North Americans. This brings reproach on the gospel in foreign countries.

Many? greater than 50% less than? What do you base your assertions on? What you feel is probably happening, or what is happening? You want to talk about ethics amongst christian ministries? Ask some of the Enyartites about Pat Robertson and his financial dealings with the family cable network. He raised alot of money for it and then sold it and pocketed the cash. Where are all these ethical ministers you speak of to get this WOLF off the air? How come he hasn't been disfellowshipped? We are talking millions and millions of dollars and he has not repented.

Originally posted by godrulz
If we give to a church or ministry, there should be a board or something for accountability. This is wisdom, practical, and spiritual. A pastor should not be the direct recipient of funds (unless he is a cult leader).

Board- schmoard. How many board members are not members of the church themselves? Where is the independent review? The board members are usually a rubber stamp for whatever the head pastor wants.

Originally posted by godrulz
I would not make a big doctrine on giving from OT practices that were limited to the Jewish priesthood and try to make this identical to the Church, the Body of Christ. Flesh out other principles and apply them in our day. If there is ambiguity in Scripture, then more than one model or pattern may be legit.

There is no pattern when it comes to tithing.

Giving is a different issue which we are not yet discussing.

Admit that there is no requirement to tithe today and we can discuss giving.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by cravescheese

The money may be a blessing in itself. You can't buy mercy, it is a free gift of God.

I say don't give the church anything, you don't have to. The Lord knows your heart. If you feel you have more than enough to support your family and are out of debt, have savings for an emergency (rainy day), have the kids college fund stocked and have paid off your car, house etc then maybe you have been working really hard and are a good steward and deserve a vacation?

Maybe you were blessed with that money so you could take a cruise around the world? Who knows.

What about your family? A husband takes care of not just his own wife and kids but his whole household. Maybe you have relatives that are struggling? An aunt or uncle who needs some car repairs? A niece or nephew working their way through colllege? Bless them before you bless complete strangers through your church or some para-church ministry.

Pray about it, but don't give it to anyone out of obligation.

If you have yourself and your whole household covered, than I would think about whether God might just want you to enjoy yourself, as in the tithe feast example.

If that doesn't seem right to you, you can invest it and grow the money so you can have more ability to help needy people.

If you want to give some away, I think starting with widows and orphans is a good idea, certainly you will be blessed if you help needy widows and orphans.

All of what you said sound so nice to to good to be true if all those things can be done , and I think any person will what that for their family and friends as well.

But can you prove that biblically for me??

I am under so much condemnation from the leaders of the church and pastors I don`t even know if I have the rights to be blessed , or in the favor of God, and as far as we teach that our prayers are not heard because of ´not paying tithes to the church I am a member .

What do you think the corn is all about , it mean as far as I be taught the church I attend is the corn, the place where I get information and grow in the Lord.

So my church say even the staff can`t get paid unless the tithes are payed by the memebers and the rent , Electricity, and heat is payed by tithes, as well and the pastorsl.

So we feel so guilty if tithes is not payed to the church we attend.

Can someone help me here on this????


God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Jesus said that the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

It sounds to me like these people love money and are causing all sorts of evil by falsely accusing people of the invented sin of stealing tithes from God.

I would find another church or start my own.

My mind , and flesh has been telling me this , but I never heard God tell me this.

I think I will want to obey and wait for God to say what to do.

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by c.moore

All of what you said sound so nice to to good to be true if all those things can be done , and I think any person will what that for their family and friends as well.

But can you prove that biblically for me??

I am under so much condemnation from the leaders of the church and pastors I don`t even know if I have the rights to be blessed , or in the favor of God, and as far as we teach that our prayers are not heard because of ´not paying tithes to the church I am a member .

What do you think the corn is all about , it mean as far as I be taught the church I attend is the corn, the place where I get information and grow in the Lord.

So my church say even the staff can`t get paid unless the tithes are payed by the memebers and the rent , Electricity, and heat is payed by tithes, as well and the pastorsl.

So we feel so guilty if tithes is not payed to the church we attend.

Can someone help me here on this????

God Bless

I guess the first question is where do you get the idea that you do have to pay a tithe (tenth) from to begin with?

If it is just because your church says so, well what if they told you you have to let the head pastor have sex with your wife?

Tell them to prove it to you biblically. There has been a ton of verses posted in this thread showing that believers are not under the law. That the tithe law was to support the priest class that could not own land and thus needed to be supported with food, clothing etc. That even if the tithe law were applicable (it isn't) all believers are considered priests, so that would mean you tithe to yourself.

What else do you need? A verse that states by name, that C. Moore's church is teaching an untruth?

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by c.moore

So my church say even the staff can`t get paid unless the tithes are payed by the memebers and the rent , Electricity, and heat is payed by tithes, as well and the pastorsl.

So we feel so guilty if tithes is not payed to the church we attend.

Can someone help me here on this????


God Bless

c.moore, I went to church tonight, and no one paid a red cent of tithes or offerings.

Church is not a building or organization. Church is people.

It was not necessary for us to have money. In the case of home churches, there is no overhead.

Give what you think is appropriate. Tithing is like baptism, of the Law. If you look in Acts, and in the post-crucifixion NT, you will see that giving is voluntarily, and by what a person feels appropriate.

God doesn't need water or money. Give as you feel appropriate in light of your resources, your responsibilities, and the needs of your church assembly.

PS--Church assemblies are not immune to the lure of "the root of all evil." Look at what money is used for in your church. If it is used for good purposes and necessities, that's wonderful. If it's used to have the snazziest looking church in town, with the biggest lawn and the tallest steeple, most stained glass, and the most ornate choir ornaments and trim, bells, and whistles, then ask yourself if those values are in line with yours, or if another church assembly might not be more appropriate for you.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by elected4ever

e4e ---------- The thief is in the pulpit and those in leadership are facilitators of the theft. It is control by false guilt. You clam to have demons cast out in your church and you cant even discern a thief. Sounds to me like Freak can't discern demons ether. Nothing to brag about in your church.:nono: :kookoo:



e4e ------- I am happy that you were not serious. It was just a poor joke as I have heard that same message from pulpits in a serious fashion as attested to by C-Moore.

A matter of fact me and freak disagreed about the tithes , and even said it is not a true teaching in my church about teaching tithes, and it is putting legalism on the people.

So As I think back on the debates we had here intithes I think he discerned the truth and I am my eyes and heart is opening up to see both sides and see the truth .

i must really say Freak is a real man of God who i respect in all ways , praise the Lord for him, and his wife.


God Bless

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Crow

c.moore, I went to church tonight, and no one paid a red cent of tithes or offerings.

Church is not a building or organization. Church is people.

It was not necessary for us to have money. In the case of home churches, there is no overhead.

Give what you think is appropriate. Tithing is like baptism, of the Law. If you look in Acts, and in the post-crucifixion NT, you will see that giving is voluntarily, and by what a person feels appropriate.

God doesn't need water or money. Give as you feel appropriate in light of your resources, your responsibilities, and the needs of your church assembly.

PS--Church assemblies are not immune to the lure of "the root of all evil." Look at what money is used for in your church. If it is used for good purposes and necessities, that's wonderful. If it's used to have the snazziest looking church in town, with the biggest lawn and the tallest steeple, most stained glass, and the most ornate choir ornaments and trim, bells, and whistles, then ask yourself if those values are in line with yours, or if another church assembly might not be more appropriate for you.

Well said Crow, well said!

 

[c.moore]

So many preacher say it is not about the law of tithes it is all about the first love to Christ.

It is showing that we put christ first even in our money to a point of 10%.

You are right crow about a fancy church and buying things which is over the head of the church , and this is what my church has done and is doing, which I and my wife don´t agree with at all specially when having a finiacial problem, so they force the people to pay tithes and offering to pay for their mistakes , and debts.

But the church say`s the money is not ours anyways it is God 10% which is our to say what we should do with it.

So How you think about that???

 

[Crow]

I think your church has a poor grasp of scriptures, and cannot understand that the Body of Christ is not under the Law. And in the case of tithes, they probably don't want to understand.

Personally, I would not be comfortable in a church assembly with such poor financial practices.

There are many church assemblies. We aren't chained to one. Try other churches. You might just find one that is well grounded in scripture and has it's priorities straight.

 

[Sozo]

c. moore...

1 Tim 6:3-12

If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain, when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. And if we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang. But flee from these things, you man of God; and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.






The problem, dear c.moore, is that you need to "flee" from the assemblies that you have grown accustom. You are in a cult that has you focusing your attention on what God is going to do for you, how He is going to "bless" you! You have left your first love. The leaders of your assembly are men of a "depraved mind" and "deprived of the truth", whose sole desire is to teach you to obey their doctrines (the doctrines of men) for the purpose of gaining from you, and not God.

Please get your eyes off of yourself and fixed on Jesus! Stop obsessing over money and health, and live a quiet life in ALL "contentment", giving thanks to God in ALL things.

Jesus loves you.

 

[godrulz]

Paul talked about giving in the church on the first day of the week. (I do not know where some of you get the idea that we can give to ourselves because we are 'priests' or that there is a problem with bringing our money to the local church...this is rationalization and rebellion). He taught systematic and proportional giving with the right motive and attitude. This Timothy passage is a rebuke for a segment of people that were controlled by greed and money. It has no interpretation or application for believers or leaders who teach and practice giving and stewardship.

It is presumptious to write off cmoores church without knowing all its beliefs and practices ('cult').

I personally would not be making faith decisions based on sozo, cheese, or my pontifications. It seems to me cmoore is getting more confused here than helped. I think he knows in his heart what is right.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

It seems to me cmoore is getting more confused here than helped. I think he knows in his heart what is right.

If he does, then he knows that you are his enemy, a hater of Christ, and an evil worker.

Paul talked about giving in the church on the first day of the week.

So what?? Are you that braindead, that you have missed everyone's point about the importance of supporting the assembly that you attend? THERE IS NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THE CHURCH TO TITHE!!!

It is presumptious to write off cmoores church without knowing all its beliefs and practices ('cult').

You are a fool, and an idiot! You make judgments all the time, even if they may not be negative ones, they are still judgments! (And they are almost always wrong).

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Crow

...PS--Church assemblies are not immune to the lure of "the root of all evil." Look at what money is used for in your church. If it is used for good purposes and necessities, that's wonderful. If it's used to have the snazziest looking church in town, with the biggest lawn and the tallest steeple, most stained glass, and the most ornate choir ornaments and trim, bells, and whistles, then ask yourself if those values are in line with yours, or if another church assembly might not be more appropriate for you.

Many churches will not tell their contributors just what the money is used for...

Some good questions to ask about the way the church spends the money you give...

Questions To Ask About Your Church’s Finances

• 
  1. What is the actual annual income of the church? Does the church sponsor (have financial interest in) other businesses like schools, book stores, retail businesses, “book ministries�, selling copies of sermons, etc? If so, be sure to count the income from these interests in the total.
  
  2. Who actually holds title to the land, buildings, and other assets of the church?
  
  3. How much does the church spend on compensation for the pastor(s), their salaries, housing, housing allowance, cars, retirement funds, discretionary funds, etc?
  
  4. How much money does the church owe – how much in mortgages and loan interest?
  
  5. How much does the church spend on maintenance, non-pastoral staff, vehicles, and buildings?
  
  6. How much does the church spend on advertising and marketing to get new people to visit/join? (This counts paying for visiting evangelists, musicians, special events, etc.)
  
  7. How much does the church spend on reproducing itself elsewhere? (i.e. “missions� and church planting)
  
  8. How much does the church spend on helping the poor and the homeless?
  
  9. How much does the church spend on helping rehabilitate prisoners?
  
  10. How much does the church spend taking care of widows and orphans?
  
  11. How much does the church spend educating children and adults?

===============
Ask these questions to your pastor or responsible church board member and see what kinds of answers you receive. If they don't answer you openly and honestly, that should tell you something about the financial integrity of the organization.

"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
- Luke 16:10-12

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Zakath

Many churches will not tell their contributors just what the money is used for...

Some good questions to ask about the way the church spends the money you give...

Questions To Ask About Your Church’s Finances

• 
  1. What is the actual annual income of the church? Does the church sponsor (have financial interest in) other businesses like schools, book stores, retail businesses, “book ministries�, selling copies of sermons, etc? If so, be sure to count the income from these interests in the total.
  
  2. Who actually holds title to the land, buildings, and other assets of the church?
  
  3. How much does the church spend on compensation for the pastor(s), their salaries, housing, housing allowance, cars, retirement funds, discretionary funds, etc?
  
  4. How much money does the church owe – how much in mortgages and loan interest?
  
  5. How much does the church spend on maintenance, non-pastoral staff, vehicles, and buildings?
  
  6. How much does the church spend on advertising and marketing to get new people to visit/join? (This counts paying for visiting evangelists, musicians, special events, etc.)
  
  7. How much does the church spend on reproducing itself elsewhere? (i.e. “missions� and church planting)
  
  8. How much does the church spend on helping the poor and the homeless?
  
  9. How much does the church spend on helping rehabilitate prisoners?
  
  10. How much does the church spend taking care of widows and orphans?
  
  11. How much does the church spend educating children and adults?

===============
Ask these questions to your pastor or responsible church board member and see what kinds of answers you receive. If they don't answer you openly and honestly, that should tell you something about the financial integrity of the organization.

"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
- Luke 16:10-12

We have every year a anual finance that tell all we spend and what we recieved throught the year which is told to all the members of the church at a meeting .
Also what is missing and needed.
my church does this in the open to all to see .

They explain also the needs why tithes is so important so the church can survive.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

We have every year a anual finance that tell all we spend and what we recieved throught the year which is told to all the members of the church at a meeting .
Also what is missing and needed.
my church does this in the open to all to see .

They explain also the needs why tithes is so important so the church can survive.

c.moore... why are you listening to a professed atheist?

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

c.moore... why are you listening to a professed atheist?

Perhaps because this atheist is also a...

... former pastor
... former church board member
... former president and board member of a Christian charitable organization

I've got experience Sozo, do you have anything besides belligerence?

What does your local assembly do about those points? :think:

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps because this atheist is also a...

... former pastor
... former church board member
... former president and board member of a Christian charitable organization

I've got experience Sozo, do you have anything besides belligerence?

What does your local assembly do about those points? :think:

I never said that it was not good advice, but it just amazes me that you reject the very source that you use to make your point.

 

[godrulz]

sozo='intolerant' (I would not be proud of this label)

Perhaps a moderator would like to rebuke sozo for saying a follower of Christ with pastoral ministry background in an evangelical church is a 'hater of Christ' and an evil worker. My academic background all my life has been honors, so I hope I am not braindead. Attacking a member of the Body of Christ is displeasing to the Lord of the Church.

Never mind, I am sure the Spirit of God will convict and rebuke sozo. He has no discernment or credibility. It is unfortunate that other believers are silent in the face of his slander. Speak the truth in love, rather than slander based on incomplete knowledge.

Ad hominem arguments (attacking the person instead of the issue) are a sign of sozo's weak mind.

I suppose Jesus and Paul were called fools and idiots. Thankfully, my life is hid in Christ, and sozo's name calling will not hurt me (unlike sticks and stones that break my bones).

Sozo, at this point you are loved, but not respected par moi.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

sozo='intolerant' (I would not be proud of this label)

I know YOU wouldn't, that is why YOU are so gullible... YOU "tolerate" false teaching and false teachers.

Tolerance is just another word for hate.

Perhaps a moderator would like to rebuke sozo for saying a follower of Christ with pastoral ministry background in an evangelical church is a 'hater of Christ' and an evil worker.

Chances are greater that you will be rebuked for leading someone like c.moore down a path of destruction.

My academic background all my life has been honors, so I hope I am not braindead.

This proves that you are.

Attacking a member of the Body of Christ is displeasing to the Lord of the Church.

When have I done that?

Never mind, I am sure the Spirit of God will convict and rebuke sozo

In your dreams. God is waiting for you to climb out of your religious swamp, and be cleansed of your self-righteousness.

He has no discernment or credibility.

It is unfortunate that other believers are silent in the face of his slander.

Perhaps that is because they have "discerment and credibility". Has anyone actually agreed with YOU?

I suppose Jesus and Paul were called fools and idiots

Perhaps, but it was the fools and idiots whom Jesus and Paul named as such who believed and taught like YOU.