Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?
- Thread starter c.moore
- Start date
Unfortunately, our friend Zakath has demonstrated more maturity and wisdom at times than dear sozo.
Most churches/ministries have an independent secular accountant audit the books (requirement for charitable status?) for accountability. This does not preclude the possibility of abuses, but minimizes it.
I believe those attacking the credibility of the average local church are attacking a 'straw man' caricature. They are painting every assembly with the same brush as the few that are dysfunctional. This is another argument to be part of a fellowship of churches rather than an independent lone ranger group run by one leader.
Sozo, on other threads I have defended biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity in the face of the errors of Mormonism, atheism, etc. Are you sure you want to conclude that I teach and support lies and falsehood because we differ on the subject of giving? It would also be wise to cool the personal attacks and rhetoric and deal with issues. Respectful dialogue earns one a right to be heard. Insulting people does not make your ideas palatable.
Perhaps it would help if I knew your basic beliefs to see if you are even a Christian (my atheistic work partner thinks you are unChristlike and should be censured?!)
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cur_deus_homo
New member
But it's great to see you posting here again. TOL is not the same without the Z-Man rampaging from thread to thread, poking and prodding people "to articulate what and why they believe."Originally posted by Zakath
I'm not a good candidate for a deity anyway. I'm too busy.
Do you believe in the Deity of Christ? Assembly of God does not ordain false teachers (I was ordained in the Canadian sister organization PAOC that has a statement of faith that you would mostly agree with...except the Pentecostal distinctives). A differing view on giving does not make one a false teacher any more than if two scholars differ on eschatology. Grow up. There is a difference between core, essential truths and peripheral areas that equally godly believers disagree on. Who is the legalist here?
(you make sweeping generalizations based on one small area of study:nono:
(you make sweeping generalizations based on one small area of study:nono:
Sozo
New member
Of course.
Really?
How many would you like me to list from the Latter Rain Movement alone?
Your view on "giving" is only a symptom of your core belief system, which is easily discerned as heretical.
There is only one gospel, and anything else is false.
AOG in many cases adds or takes away from the message that Paul once delivered to all the saints.
Your views on giving are contrary to sound doctrine and make clear additions to the gospel.
No one here is against giving, but you, and the AOG, have created something out of nothing.
I would define the AOG as a cult. They, above all other organizations, are moved through emotional, and fad based so-called "moves of God".
Their veiw on the doctrine of salvation is evidence enough to put them outside the faith.
If AOG is outside biblical Christianity (they are a very conservative Pentecostal group believing the essentials of the faith that all evangelicals subscribe to), then so are Southern Baptists, etc.
AOG considers Latter-Rain theology heresy.
What exactly is their view on the doctrine of salvation? Perhaps you would like to quote their statement of faith and supporting Scriptures to prove your accusation. They are not Calvinists, but they are squarely in the Reformation tradition (Arminian). I do not agree with every AOG idea.
What is your view of salvation?
What do I believe about the doctrine of salvation and the atonement? How do you know this? Mind reading?
Is your happy, holy huddle the only group with all truth? Who then is really the cultist/sectarian?
AOG considers Latter-Rain theology heresy.
What exactly is their view on the doctrine of salvation? Perhaps you would like to quote their statement of faith and supporting Scriptures to prove your accusation. They are not Calvinists, but they are squarely in the Reformation tradition (Arminian). I do not agree with every AOG idea.
What is your view of salvation?
What do I believe about the doctrine of salvation and the atonement? How do you know this? Mind reading?
Is your happy, holy huddle the only group with all truth? Who then is really the cultist/sectarian?
Sozo
New member
You said that "Assembly of God does not ordain false teachers".
Perhaps you would like to rephrase that.
It's conditional, and insecure.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are outside the fundementals of the gospel message.
Good for you! Then perhaps you would like to admit that tithing is not a prescription for the body of Christ.
First and foremost, it should be quite clear that there is "no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
So, can we agree that it is through Christ Jesus, and Jesus alone that men are saved?
Who is Jesus?
"...these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God"
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."
"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
So, can we agree that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is Lord? As we also agree that salvation is through Him.
Eph 2:8 tells us:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
Romans tells us that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved and we just read that it is by grace.
God gives us the grace to believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and when we accept this in our hearts, and confess it with our mouths, the result is righteousness and salvation.
What is it about Jesus that saves us? What did He do?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"
"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world"
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins"
Propitiation - God is satisfied!
Jesus satisfied a debt He did not owe, for us who had a debt we could not pay and God accepted it and we were reconciled to God.
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"
What debt did Jesus pay?
"For the wages of sin is death"
Jesus paid for our sin.
"For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all"
Jesus died to sin for all, and that death, satisfied God and the debt was paid, and all were reconciled to Him.
Reconciled - a change in relationship
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation"
"...we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
(We beg you on behalf of Christ, let your relationship with God be changed)
God has changed the relationship through the blood of Christ, by removing the debt that we owed, and no longer counting our trespasses against us, and He desires that we change our relationship with Him.
Jesus was raised from the dead
"...knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him"
Jesus is alive!
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"
We are saved by His life!
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
"...whoever believes may in Him have eternal life"
"...whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life".
He who believes in the Son has eternal life
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life"
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life"
"I came that they might have life"
"I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies"
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent"
"...these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
Salvation is life! The life of God! It is eternal!
What do we receive when we believe? LIFE!!
"Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life"
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
"...as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
"For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".
"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"
"When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory"
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus"
"...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"
"...being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life"
"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."
"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son"
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life "
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.
If you have the Son, you have LIFE! You don't get life, you have life.
"It is the Spirit who gives life "
"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own"
"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"
"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
Salvation is receiving the very LIFE of God!
sozo: "Salvation is conditional and insecure."
I believe in conditional eternal security (not TULIP unconditional eternal security= once saved always saved).
If Calvinism and Arminianism are equally wrong, what is your position? How do you feel about Open Theism (my preferred view)?
I believe in conditional eternal security (not TULIP unconditional eternal security= once saved always saved).
If Calvinism and Arminianism are equally wrong, what is your position? How do you feel about Open Theism (my preferred view)?
Sozo
New member
That quote you attributed to me is my objection with the AOG concerning their view of salvation.
That is an interesting comment, coming from you. How can you say that, and still hold so tightly to your traditions?
I will have to take a break from you, and give you the benefit of my doubts.
There is alot about Open Theism that I agree with, but primarily I hold to the reality of the "exchanged life", when speaking of our relationship with Christ.
I try to base my views on the Bible. I am not AOG and disagree with some of their ideas.
I see Open Theism as a sub-type of Arminianism (Enyartists would disagree). AOG writes papers against Open Theism supporting exhaustive foreknowledge. Calvinists write papers against Arminianism and Open Theism supporting TULIP/predestination.
I have non-traditional views in some areas. Our beliefs should be based on Scripture, not traditions or statements of faith or creeds.
I do not like the idea of salvation being insecure. Is that their words? I am not OSAS, but believe we are secure in Christ if we continue in the faith. If we repudiate our faith once for all to the death, we do not have relationship or eternal life. He is able to save and keep us, but we can theoretically rebel and reject due to free will. There are grounds and conditions for salvation. All relevant Scriptures must be looked at.
For a Scriptural refutation of OSAS by a Southern Baptist:
"Life in the Son" by Robert Shank (Westcott)
(A study of the doctrine of perseverance)
I see Open Theism as a sub-type of Arminianism (Enyartists would disagree). AOG writes papers against Open Theism supporting exhaustive foreknowledge. Calvinists write papers against Arminianism and Open Theism supporting TULIP/predestination.
I have non-traditional views in some areas. Our beliefs should be based on Scripture, not traditions or statements of faith or creeds.
I do not like the idea of salvation being insecure. Is that their words? I am not OSAS, but believe we are secure in Christ if we continue in the faith. If we repudiate our faith once for all to the death, we do not have relationship or eternal life. He is able to save and keep us, but we can theoretically rebel and reject due to free will. There are grounds and conditions for salvation. All relevant Scriptures must be looked at.
For a Scriptural refutation of OSAS by a Southern Baptist:
"Life in the Son" by Robert Shank (Westcott)
(A study of the doctrine of perseverance)
elected4ever
New member
godrulz
e4e -------- There is no passable way you can be secure in Christ and believe that you have the say so about your continued relationship with God. The two ideas are exclusive of one another. The Apostle Paul address that idea of your personal control in Galatians 3. He ask the question, Galatians 3:1 ٦O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 ŸThis only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 ŸAre ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Apostle John testifies as what our relationship with the Father is, 1 John 3:9 ŸWhosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The Apostle John also testifies as to our condition as long as we remain in this life, 1 John 4:13 ŸHereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 ٦And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 ŸWhosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 ŸAnd we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ٦Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 ŸThere is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
DO YOU FEAR THAT YOU MAY DO SOMETHING WRONG OR MIGHT SOMEDAY REJECT WHAT YOU NOW ASSUME YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE OF SOME CIRCUMSTANCE THAT MAY DEVELOP?
Your theology is the most inconsistent that I have seen.
:think:
:e4e:
e4e -------- There is no passable way you can be secure in Christ and believe that you have the say so about your continued relationship with God. The two ideas are exclusive of one another. The Apostle Paul address that idea of your personal control in Galatians 3. He ask the question, Galatians 3:1 ٦O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 ŸThis only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 ŸAre ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Apostle John testifies as what our relationship with the Father is, 1 John 3:9 ŸWhosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The Apostle John also testifies as to our condition as long as we remain in this life, 1 John 4:13 ŸHereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 ٦And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 ŸWhosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 ŸAnd we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ٦Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 ŸThere is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
DO YOU FEAR THAT YOU MAY DO SOMETHING WRONG OR MIGHT SOMEDAY REJECT WHAT YOU NOW ASSUME YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE OF SOME CIRCUMSTANCE THAT MAY DEVELOP?
Your theology is the most inconsistent that I have seen.
:think:
:e4e:
"If AOG is outside biblical Christianity (they are a very conservative Pentecostal group believing the essentials of the faith that all evangelicals subscribe to)"
My Daughter and her inlaws are AOG. I have been to her congregations in SanJose and in Phoenix. They both preach a "health and wealth" gospel - if you don't have money and health it is because of insufficient faith. It has messed them up. They tithe their pittance and wait for God to bless them.
My Daughter and her inlaws are AOG. I have been to her congregations in SanJose and in Phoenix. They both preach a "health and wealth" gospel - if you don't have money and health it is because of insufficient faith. It has messed them up. They tithe their pittance and wait for God to bless them.