Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

I think that is a little hard core and over exaggerating.

I not only think that Zakath's post is accurate, but I agree with this observation as well...

If people really knew how many church leaders actually see the sheep, they'd never darken the door of a church again.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

I not only think that Zakath's post is accurate, but I agree with this observation as well...

Sozo and Zakath agreeing on something?????? :shocked:

Quick, somebody notify Gerald. The fires of hell just went out and everything's freezing over...

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Sozo and Zakath agreeing on something?????? :shocked:

Quick, somebody notify Gerald. The fires of hell just went out and everything's freezing over...

It's a tragedy that you have used your observations of men to influence your belief in the creator of men.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

It's a tragedy that you have used your observations of men to influence your belief in the creator of men.

More correctly, it might be said that I my lack of observations of deity influence my continued unbelief in deity's existence.

 

[elected4ever]

Zakath

Be careful c.moore, I think you're getting dangerously close to the essence of Christianity here...

e4e -------- Zakath, I believe you do know the essence of Christianity. I think you came to the place where you saw the hypocrisy practiced in your church and others, mine included.

The two, the essence of Christianity and the hypocrisy practiced in your church, were not compatible. Instead of accepting the essence of Christianity and working to understand that essence in your own life, you through the baby out with the bath water due to your confusion. That essence of Christianity has haunted you ever sense. I do not think you are lazy our stupid but reaching desperately for sanity.

I think you have a great desire to make a difference in people's lives. You would not have put yourself through the disciplines you did without that desire. By throwing out the truth alone with the fiction you embarked up a dead end street. There is no future for you past this life on earth. Your work will pass and all will be forgotten by man just like the rest of us. The eternal blessings that God had intended for you will also be lost. Everything that God has promised me, He has promised you and has made a way for you just as He has for me. The blessings of God are not contingent on your goodness or lack thereof but upon the ability of God to keep and to save.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Zakath

e4e -------- Zakath, I believe you do know the essence of Christianity. I think you came to the place where you saw the hypocrisy practiced in your church and others, mine included.

That along with the internal inconsistencies of the ideas of deities themeselves and the religions created to appease/worship them.

The two, the essence of Christianity and the hypocrisy practiced in your church, were not compatible. Instead of accepting the essence of Christianity and working to understand that essence in your own life, you through the baby out with the bath water due to your confusion. That essence of Christianity has haunted you ever sense. I do not think you are lazy our stupid but reaching desperately for sanity.

If I was lazy or stupid I wouldn't bother posting in places like this one.

I think you have a great desire to make a difference in people's lives. You would not have put yourself through the disciplines you did without that desire.

True enough.

...There is no future for you past this life on earth. Your work will pass and all will be forgotten by man just like the rest of us.

All the more reason to make what positive impressions I can on the world while I'm here, eh?

Those of us who do not believe in an afterlife tend to focus more on the here and now and benefit those we can in the time we have available.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Zakath

I can offer insight from when I was behind the pulpit... we were taught by the more experienced pastors that "teaching tithing" was a sure ticket to two things...

1) It winnowed out the slackers who wouldn't follow your teaching. They were then described as "resisting the will of God" or "having no roots", or some other denigrating image.

2) It guaranteed good, steady income. As a matter of fact, if you could convince your people to tithe and sign pledge cards, those were almost as good as legal contracts at most financial institutions. Banks will loan money to churches who follow stewardship programs that include tithing...

In short it's mostly about funding things the pastor and board want to do, including controlling more and more of the church members lives.

As I have always suspected.

Tithes are clearly of the Law. But boy oh boy, that ole Law comes in handy when it comes to paying the bills or funding a pet project.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by elected4ever

HopeofGlory

e4e ----- Whether we like it or not we have been given a processor that processes information. The information that we receive is processed using an informational filter that has been built up from birth. The processor is organic and not spiritual but is capable of receiving spiritual information. Most of the information processed is not spiritual in nature but received through the five senses. Normally, credibility is given to information that passes certain test that have been built through life's experiences. Life's experiences dictate what is best in any situation answering the question off what is in my own self best interest.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may "know" what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Even though we were dead in our sins the Spirit did speak to our hearts and enlighten us. Salvation is a process in which God breaks through the walls built by our experiences.

When we first heard the message and understood the message. We had opportunity to make a decision to follow Christ. What we are told by a trusted source at that vunerable moment is critical. For example, when I first came to Jesus an older member of the Church came to me and told me not to believe those who would tell me that I could not sin because I would always sin. For forty years my joy in the Lord was destroyed because I always come up short of the perfection that I demanded of myself. I had to be perfect.

Many hear but do not understand but salvation is knowing what we have in Christ. The moment of salvation is when our eyes are enlightened. I was witnessed to but it was Christ that gave me the understanding, knowing that I was completely accepted as I was, so I knew perfection was not a requirement.
I was set free and there was no way I could have refused it. If someone had then told me that I needed to be sinless I would not have believed it because it was Christ that accepted me as the sinner that I knew I was. I attended a baptist church and they required that I be baptized to be a member. It meant nothing to me but I was concerned that I would be adding to what Christ had done so I explained that I would have to examine the Word before doing so. It was the Spirit in me that would not let me accept their words.

The pits and the valleys were deep and the mountaintop was high. I was unstable in all my ways because I was never in the valley or on the mountain for very long. You just never knew who you were getting on a given day. I was that way for over forty years. I have seen hundreds of Christians under this dilemma. I suggest to you that most Christians are the most miserable people on planet earth. Slaves of righteousness and never believing the righteousness that they possess. No, Christians are tought not to believe who they really are.

When Christ saved me I was the happiest I had ever been in my entire life, even while I was struggling with the church leaders.

Psa 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

 

[elected4ever]

Zakath

That along with the internal inconsistencies of the ideas of deities themselves and the religions created to appease/worship them.

e4e ------ I think you, God and I are of the same opinion concerning this subject.



Zakath

If I was lazy or stupid I wouldn't bother posting in places like this one.

e4e ----- Yes I know. You work very hard to deny the truth you can't escape.

Zakath

All the more reason to make what positive impressions I can on the world while I'm here, eh?

e4e ---- Who said anything about your created impressions of yourself being positive?

Zakath

Those of us who do not believe in an afterlife tend to focus more on the here and now and benefit those we can in the time we have available.

e4e -------- That is just one of the many lies you have accepted as truth to shield yourself from the fact of your sure accountability to God. You will answer to Him. It is just a question of when. :zakath:

:e4e:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Zakath

I can offer insight from when I was behind the pulpit... we were taught by the more experienced pastors that "teaching tithing" was a sure ticket to two things...

1) It winnowed out the slackers who wouldn't follow your teaching. They were then described as "resisting the will of God" or "having no roots", or some other denigrating image.

2) It guaranteed good, steady income. As a matter of fact, if you could convince your people to tithe and sign pledge cards, those were almost as good as legal contracts at most financial institutions. Banks will loan money to churches who follow stewardship programs that include tithing...

In short it's mostly about funding things the pastor and board want to do, including controlling more and more of the church members lives.

This observation is no doubt true in some cases, but not all cases. Abuse of a teaching does not mean that there is not a balanced approach possible. Motive is the key. Some leaders genuinely believe that tithing is a principle and is primarily an act of Lordship, worship, love, and obedience. They are responsible to teach the Word of God as they understand it, while the people are responsible to search out the matter for themselves before they act. Since most believers do not tithe, the leadership still looks to God as the ultimate Provider for the needs of the local church and ministry.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by godrulz

This observation is no doubt true in some cases, but not all cases.

Agreed.

Abuse of a teaching does not mean that there is not a balanced approach possible.

Agreed.

Motive is the key. Some leaders genuinely believe that tithing is a principle and is primarily an act of Lordship, worship, love, and obedience. They are responsible to teach the Word of God as they understand it, while the people are responsible to search out the matter for themselves before they act. Since most believers do not tithe, the leadership still looks to God as the ultimate Provider for the needs of the local church and ministry.

The problem comes when the laity have to listen and cannot look into the hearts of their leaders to see what their motive is, that ability is apparently reserved for the deities alone.

In churches where the Bible is used as the "rule of faith and practice", if you can point it out in the book, and it's not specifically forbidden in the NT, then it's appropropriate. Particularly when speaking about money, it seems...

Christians are called sheep for good reason. The sheep exist to be shorn, over and over again.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have not pursued Him, He pursued me.

Pounding on sand will not make it disappear, and wishing will not make Him go away.

He is there and He is not silent! - Francis Schaeffer

Zak can jump off a cliff thinking gravity does not apply to him. There are temporal and eternal consequences for rejecting the Living God. He choses 'woe', while we marvel at the wonder of His Majesty. The people who believe they are god or reject the true God are delusional. Believers live in reality and are making the most intelligent choice based on God's existence.

 

[godrulz]

There are harsh words for bad shepherds who fleece the flock in the OT and NT. Here is a positive model for ministry:

I Peter 5:2-4 "Be shepherds of God's flock (the local church is God's idea) that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God want you to be; NOT GREEDY FOR MONEY, but eager to serve; NOT LORDING it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

There are good and bad lawyers, doctors, mechanics, and pastors. The bad ones do not undermine the validity of their disciplines. Bad pastors (those without character, calling, integrity, anointing, etc.) or hypocrites in the church are not an excuse for rejecting Christ and Christianity.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by godrulz

He is there and He is not silent! - Francis Schaeffer

Then much of the world must be deaf because he cannot be heard. :chuckle:

Zak can jump off a cliff thinking gravity does not apply to him.

But that would be an irrational behavior since I can directly measure the effects of gravity.

... unless of course, something sufficiently large and mean were chasing me...

There are temporal and eternal consequences for rejecting the Living God. He choses 'woe', while we marvel at the wonder of His Majesty.

More like you've chosen "woo woo". Though it's odd, I must have missed the "woe" part... :think:

The people who believe they are god or reject the true God are delusional.

Not believing in what is not there is rational, not delusional...

Believers live in reality and are making the most intelligent choice based on God's existence.

I refer you to my sig below:

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by godrulz

There are harsh words for bad shepherds who fleece the flock in the OT and NT.

Yup. I've preached 'em many times.

Here is a positive model for ministry:

I Peter 5:2-4 "Be shepherds of God's flock (the local church is God's idea) that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God want you to be; NOT GREEDY FOR MONEY, but eager to serve; NOT LORDING it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

But the pressure of making that $60,000 mortgage payment on the multi-million dollar church complex can be so heavy...

There are good and bad lawyers, doctors, mechanics, and pastors. The bad ones do not undermine the validity of their disciplines. Bad pastors (those without character, calling, integrity, anointing, etc.) or hypocrites in the church are not an excuse for rejecting Christ and Christianity.

Truly said. I did not reject Christianity because of crappy clergypersons.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Zakath

I am merely relating my own experience. If you want it prettied up, go listen to Robert Tilton or Benny Hinn...

Actually I was being quite mild. If people really knew how many church leaders actually see the sheep, they'd never darken the door of a church again.

But, as one American showman is alleged to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

That's why evangelism and bringing new people into the church is so important...

So you don`t think no one is blessed by tithing and we can prove God ???

have you?ve ever tithes Zakath??

 

[elected4ever]

c.moore, just when i thought you were about to get it you come across with the dumbest question I ever heard.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by elected4ever

c.moore, just when i thought you were about to get it you come across with the dumbest question I ever heard.

According to my pastor and church i should get like other people and stay poor busted and depressed?:nono:

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

According to my pastor and church i should get like other people and stay poor busted and depressed?:nono:

If that is what you believe, than perhaps you should examine your heart as to why you believe in God in the first place.

Are you sure that you are in the faith?

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by c.moore

According to my pastor and church i should get like other people and stay poor busted and depressed?:nono:

Why do you keep telling us this stuff? If you are having grave misgivings about what you are hearing from the pulpit, discuss it with your pastor. If you don't feel right with his answers and the scriptures do not support his teachings, find another church assembly. Christians don't get martyr points for suffering through being misled by bad teaching. Flee! How can Christ work through you, c.moore, if you are in a church where you are seriously concerned about the values and teachings of the pastor?

You're the head of your household, you're the one who chooses which minister teaches your kids. Do you want them to be taught to be Christians under the Law?