Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

Granite

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Im just using your own stance for the other places you wish to follow. Is your own argument not good enough for you in this case?

It's not a difficult question. As for yours: I'm not sure what you mean or understand as my stance. What argument of mine are you referring to? If you mean by some symbols being too provocative to ever be understood except by one loaded definition, yes, I stand by that.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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See, that's not really talking about the murders. It's talking about what you want to do about it, about your larger issue on what constitutes the justice you mean to apply to him.

In this you're no different from the people you're criticizing.

I think you've got nothing left to contribute to our disagreement.

You have conceded that your input is based on the limits of the US compact, while my arguments are built on the universal value of justice.

You've pretended that the US compact is synonymous with justice. It's not. Justice for murderers is execution. Justice delayed this long in such an open-and-shut case is injustice.

And as for accusing me of hypocrisy, that is just another in the long list of failed attempts you've tried to dismiss my points, a list that includes my location, education, and even a question mark outside a quotation.

You've failed at every turn to recognize even the basics of what I have laid out in plain language, preferring verbosity and obscurity to protect your ideas from critique.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
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This is sidestepping my question. And I don't think some symbols are inherently stereotyped, either. Some are beyond redemption.
It can only be 'beyond redemption' if your heart is so hardened that it only keeps perpetuating the 'baggage'.
 

Granite

New member
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It can only be 'beyond redemption' if your heart is so hardened that it only keeps perpetuating the 'baggage'.

Again, a sidestep (and a total load of baloney to boot). Answer the question: Are certain symbols simply irredeemable based on their history and/or baggage?
 

Granite

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Freedom of choice doesn't guarantee wise choices. But it does guarantee my right to choose as I see fit.

No here's disputed that. At least I haven't.

I'm asking why we consider certain symbols to be provocative or offensive...and whether or not based on their history and or usage they're beyond redemption.
 

Angel4Truth

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What would you consider such imagery to be, and why?

Irrelevant to the point, because even though i disagree, i do not take away the right of someone else to believe what they do. I fully believe in freedom of speech and expression even when i disagree with it.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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So you'd consider a Third Reich swastika or Totenkopf or hammer and sickle or a burning cross (etc.) potentially neutral or even positive.
I could have them all flying in my front yard. Would any of them define what sort of person I truly am?
No.

Your focus on any symbols I might have instead of my actual actions is sidestepping the problem.
Put the focus where it should be. on the real problem, not the symbol.
 

Granite

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Irrelevant to the point, because even though i disagree, i do not take away the right of someone else to believe what they do. I fully believe in freedom of speech and expression even when i disagree with it.

Well, again. A sidestep. Answering "We consider some symbols offensive because of what they represent and we denounce the deeds that were done in their name" would wrap this up, and you and Tambora both realize that. All you're stuck with now is arguing that somehow, someway, the rebel flag's imagery is unique and falls into a morally neutral category that defies effective or worthwhile criticism--which is a conceit that defies facts, history, and common sense. This isn't a discussion about whether some philistine should have the "right" to tattoo a swastika on his arm or fly the rebel flag on his porch. This is a discussion about what message is being conveyed and received with such symbols.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I think you've got nothing left to contribute to our disagreement.
I think you have an authority issue.

I wonder what either speculation will get us. :think:

You have conceded that your input is based on the limits of the US compact, while my arguments are built on the universal value of justice.
It's not a "concession" for Pete's sake, but don't let me stop you waving that checkered flag you stitched together from nothing. :)

You've pretended that the US compact is synonymous with justice. It's not.
So, is it that you haven't actually been reading me or that you just don't understand what I've written? Anyway, I've answered on what can and can't be had in this life and how what we call justice is at best an approximation, that sort of thing.

Justice for murderers is execution.
Arguable, but according to the law it's the consequence absent capacity. I speak within the context of the law because speaking outside of it just doesn't accomplish anything, becomes a discourse about any number of competing, subjective standards, none of which will determine the fate of the actual young man under consideration, to note the irony of your complaint set against what you're doing.

Justice delayed this long in such an open-and-shut case is injustice.
You don't alter the process for someone's perceived notion of what's necessary. I've dealt with that prior, so no point in going into capacity.

And as for accusing me of hypocrisy,
Well, you're complaining about people not speaking to the murders, but then wanting to go into a debate on a thing that isn't about the actual murders. What would you call that sort of inconsistency?

that is just another in the long list of failed attempts
So the criminal gets to determine his innocence? That's a neat trick.

you've tried to dismiss my points
Your approach, certainly and your attempt to move the argument from the actual to something else.

,a list that includes my location, education, and even a question mark outside a quotation.
You mean your distance from and lack of familiarity with the system that galls you and your lack of education to qualify your opinion else on the point of law? Absolutely. They're stumbling blocks for you. I don't recall the question mark business and I'm not interested enough to go back and look, so...

You've failed at every turn to recognize even the basics of what I have laid out in plain language
I think that's complete nonsense.

, preferring verbosity and obscurity to protect your ideas from critique.
Supra. There's nothing complicated about what I'm saying. Nothing remotely obscure. Not in the flag argument or my comments about justice or the process by which it's arrived at in the only system that will determine the outcome in this case.
 

bybee

New member
What would you consider such imagery to be, and why?

At this moment in time they are terribly inflammatory. Courtesy, to my mind, would demand that they be kept out of sight.
As a Yankee, in the past, all that rebel stuff was kind of entertaining.
Right now we are in the death grip of political correctness and almost any utterance may be perceived as insulting or derogatory.
But I keep in mind how important some symbols are to me.
I am enraged by desecration of the American Flag. I am absolutely disgusted by people who claim it is art when they show contempt for the cross.
But these are symbols and symbols may be controversial.
What is not up for the razor sharp teeth of political correctness is respect for life, mine, yours and the unborn child.
 
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