Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Tambora]

Essentially. That and segregation, once it was revived.

But aren't you saying that the flag itself was a symbol of slavery?

It wasn't designed to represent slavery. It was a flag of stars and stripes designed to represent the states consisting of the south, just as the north also had a flag of stars and stripes representing the states consisting of the north.

Both flags (north and south) were just variations of the stars and stripes that had been used in the past and continued to be used by American throughout history.

 

[rexlunae]

But aren't you saying that the flag itself was a symbol of slavery?

Not in the design. In the historical context. First it was flown in defense of slavery, then almost a century later in defense of segregation.

It wasn't designed to represent slavery. It was a flag of stars and stripes designed to represent the states consisting of the south, just as the north also had a flag of stars and stripes representing the states consisting of the north.

Both flags (north and south) were just variations of the stars and stripes that had been used in the past and continued to be used by American throughout history.

That's not entirely true. The cross pattern in the Confederate flag was St. Andrew's cross, which is to say that it's a Christian symbol. So, it took some concepts from the American flag, and combined them with Christian symbols.

As a side note, the flag of Novorossiya, the parts of Ukraine that Putin is trying to annex to Russia, look much like the Confederate flag without the stars, in part because of the use of this cross. It is also used by Scotland, England, the UK, and others.

But to the main point, I agree, there's no representation in the flag design of slavery, and I wasn't suggesting that there was. It acquires that meaning from how it has been used.

 

[rainee]

Because slavery:
http://www.civilwar.org/education/h...fcauses.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

Every state that issued a statement of causes cited slavery. As did the VP of the Confederacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

If they were so clear about what they were doing and why, what gives you so much confusion?

So it is lost on you why in 1860 this mattered enough to fight, kill and die over?
Maybe it just took the States a really long time to figure out they did not approve of slavery?

Relevance?

Well isn't it strange to you at all that the East had to have laws to stop them from working children abusively, to stop them from being unfair to their employees or renters? But they wanted to fight, kill and maybe die for slaves?


I'm tired.
I know the whites are the worst when they are liberals and my heart still feels for black communities. They are up north where whites won't live with them like down here and theses communities are living in ruin.
So no more fighting from me. But if blacks up north keep believing those who stir them up I fear it will only make things worse.

 

[rainee]

Rex no one practices segregation like the liberals do.

 

[drbrumley]

You're moving the goalposts. I said he was against slavery, not that he wasn't racist.

I am not moving the goalposts sir. You are dead wrong. If since you need further proof for your edification, let me introduce to you the Corwin amendment as passed by both Houses of Congress and SIGNED and hand delivered to the states by Lincoln HIMSELF!!!!

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State,, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State."

Nothing there about new territories either.

And his own words about the amendment:

"I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution — which amendment, however, I have not seen — has passed Congress to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service . . . . [H]olding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable" (emphasis added).

 

[tetelestai]

No it wasn't.

Yes it was.

The Supreme Court said so in 1869.

And, before you make it known that 1869 was many years after the secession, the SCOTUS rulings interpret the constitution and law. Therefore, assuming the SCOTUS ruling of 1869 was correct, it would have been equally correct before the war.

 

[tetelestai]

But aren't you saying that the flag itself was a symbol of slavery?

It wasn't designed to represent slavery. It was a flag of stars and stripes designed to represent the states consisting of the south, just as the north also had a flag of stars and stripes representing the states consisting of the north.

Both flags (north and south) were just variations of the stars and stripes that had been used in the past and continued to be used by American throughout history.

Let's look at what the guy (Thompson) who designed the flag for the Confederacy had to say about the flag:

Did you read the "white man over the inferior, colored race" part?

 

[Tambora]

Correct. It was mostly about slavery.

I would say that it was mostly about money.

 

[tetelestai]

But aren't you saying that the flag itself was a symbol of slavery?

Yes it was, and yes it still is, which is why it should not be allowed on government property.

Again, let's look at another quote from the guy who designed the Confederacy's flag:

Why do you think the KKK, and every White Supremacy group out there used the Confederate Flag?

 

[drbrumley]

Yes it was.

The Supreme Court said so in 1869.

And, before you make it known that 1869 was many years after the secession, the SCOTUS rulings interpret the constitution and law. Therefore, assuming the SCOTUS ruling of 1869 was correct, it would have been equally correct before the war.

I knew that flimsy answer was coming, so I dug up a quote to answer you and its' quite correct.

Gee, that’s no shocker. So, sure, if you believe that the federal government should be the last word on what the federal government can and cannot do, then that’s fine. Just don’t pretend that we have constitutional government. If the federal government gets to decide what the Constitution says, then the Constitution is nothing more than a suggestion box for the feds.

 

[rexlunae]

I am not moving the goalposts sir. You are dead wrong. If since you need further proof for your edification, let me introduce to you the Corwin amendment as passed by both Houses of Congress and SIGNED and hand delivered to the states by Lincoln HIMSELF!!!!

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State,, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State."

Nothing there about new territories either.

And his own words about the amendment:

"I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution — which amendment, however, I have not seen — has passed Congress to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service . . . . [H]olding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable" (emphasis added).

Right. He approved of it as a possible solution to the objections of slave-holding states because he didn't think it actually changed anything. I'm not sure that assessment is correct.

 

[tetelestai]

Rex no one practices segregation like the liberals do.

Why are you defending a Liberal Democrat flag?

 

[rexlunae]

I would say that it was mostly about money.

Well, slavery was first and foremost a form of economic exploitation. That's perhaps the common thread between slavery and the poor industrial labor conditions that existed in the North, but that hardly makes them equivalent.

 

[Tambora]

Let's look at what the guy (Thompson) who designed the flag for the Confederacy had to say about the flag:

Did you read the "white man over the inferior, colored race" part?

Sure I read it.
Practically all of America and Europe thought white folks were superior over blacks.
That didn't change much even after the war.
So if you want to choose a flag that represents white supremacy, then you would have to choose all the flags of America had at that time.

 

[tetelestai]

If the federal government gets to decide what the Constitution says, then the Constitution is nothing more than a suggestion box for the feds.

Um.....then who should decide what the Constitution says?

A bunch of slave owners in the South circa 1860?

 

[rainee]

"As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." - William T. Thompson (April 23, 1863), Daily Morning News

This is a quote from the guy who designed the Confederacy's National Flag.

So you really believe this fight was not about livelihood?
Everyone who made quotes to justify themselves back then on both sides didn't just come out and say it was about the gross national product?
Wow. Then it must not have been about money but about love on the East's side and hate on the South's side? No doubt. What could ever be more important than love and hate anyway, you silly child?
We live on eating fairy wings!
.

It's no accident the KKK, White Supremacy groups, Skinheads, etc all use the Confederate flag. They didn't pick it just for fun. They say "heritage not hate"

And you still don't get it.

 

[rainee]

Correction I guess that would've been Gross Domestic Product before the South left.

 

[tetelestai]

Sure I read it.
Practically all of America and Europe thought white folks were superior over blacks.
That didn't change much even after the war.
So if you want to choose a flag that represents white supremacy, then you would have to choose all the flags of America had at that time.

I gave you racist quotes from the guy who designed the Confederacy's flag.

Can you provide any racist Betsy Ross quotes? Or any other flag designer for that matter?

If not, then your argument falls apart.

The flag of the Confederacy was designed by a racist, and he even said the flag stood for white supremacy.

Which is why EVERY White Supremacist group uses the Confederate Flag.

Apparently White Supremacists are much more knowledgeable about history then those on TOL defending the Confederate Flag.

 

[tetelestai]

So you really believe this fight was not about livelihood?

Yes, the slave owners wanted to keep their slaves so they could make more money.

Everyone who made quotes to justify themselves back then on both sides didn't just come out and say it was about the gross national product?

So what. I don't care if you're starving, it doesn't give you the right to own slaves.

Wow. Then it must not have been about money but about love on the East's side and hate on the South's side?

See above.

Money does't validate slavery.

BTW, it was North vs. South, not East vs. South.

And you still don't get it.

Yes I do, it's you who doesn't

You're defending a heritage built on hate.

 

[Tambora]

Well, slavery was first and foremost a form of economic exploitation. That's perhaps the common thread between slavery and the poor industrial labor conditions that existed in the North, but that hardly makes them equivalent.

The north was abusing the shipping and port taxes of goods from the south.

The north didn't want to give in, so they conjured up a way to destroy the south by bankrupting them into submission.
Get rid of the slave labor and the south would lose money, crops, and goods for lack of labor.

There were free black people in the south already that owned property. And they too used slave labor.
So it wasn't a race thing. It was a business thing.

But we have gotten quite off track from the OP. So I'm gonna let this rabbit trail go.